Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[The Star King]

Holy **** I haven't had Danimals in years, I forgot it existed

 

[Bing]

Yo, Danimals were the ****... lmfao

 

[Construct]

I don't understand where people get the 'marth is slow' concept. He has the fastest walk speed in game, and 3rd fastest dash iirc. He has the fourth longest wavedash (luigi>mewtwo>ics>marth), and the second longest dashdance.

Marth's recovery isn't half as bad as people make it out to be. Bones did a pretty good job summing things up, but i'd like to point out that he has a fair bit of stalling variation due to his quasi-floatiness and his side-b stalling shenanigans. It's not stellar, but it isn't a debilitating weakness like some people say.

The biggest flaws I find with Marth are his lack of KO options at high percents, how prone he is to being comboed (primarily by falco falcon and puff), and the difficulty he has in approaching the very top tiers.

To put that in comparison, he has the longest grab in game, 0-death combos on the spacies, one of the best edgeguarding games around, and one of the best aerial games around.

tl;dr marth is just right where he is

edit: everybody plays him for the tiara though

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't understand where people get the 'marth is slow' concept. He has the fastest walk speed in game, and 3rd fastest dash iirc. He has the fourth longest wavedash (luigi>mewtwo>ics>marth), and the second longest dashdance.

Long WD isn't a huge advantage most of the time. I think Sheik's WD is way better than Marth's because the space she moves is way more conducive to positioning her moves. Tight movements are generally more useful than big ones.

Anyway, "Marth is slow" deals more with the fact that he doesn't juke people well because his movements are so long and deliberate (see: his WD), he has trouble maneuvering around people because he doesn't move up quickly (see: Sheik, Fox, Falcon), he doesn't have a "get off me" move that comes out fast and gets people off him safely, his moves generally hit up before they cover in front of him (which adds startup time for practical purposes), and he's one of the laggiest of the top tier characters (this is not up for debate).

Marth's recovery isn't half as bad as people make it out to be. Bones did a pretty good job summing things up, but i'd like to point out that he has a fair bit of stalling variation due to his quasi-floatiness and his side-b stalling shenanigans. It's not stellar, but it isn't a debilitating weakness like some people say.

The biggest weakness of Marth's recovery is the inevitability of being hit. It's excruciatingly hard to do anything that doesn't involve being hit off again. He doesn't have many mixups aside from floating a bit longer. Most of his high recoveries are handled by very generic invincibility-abuse algorithms. These are problems. Being offstage isn't an immediate death sentence, but you're probably gonna get hit again. Getting hit easily sucks.

This is exacerbated by his lack of practical ledge invulnerability abuse. Ledgedash is stupidly good for Fox, Falco, Sheik, and various other characters. Marth misses out on this sort of thing. Marth grabbing the edge is far from safe, which means there's some leniency with missing edgeguards that simply isn't there vs a ledge-savvy space animal (or Sheik).

The biggest flaws I find with Marth are his lack of KO options at high percents, how prone he is to being comboed (primarily by falco falcon and puff), and the difficulty he has in approaching the very top tiers.

I agree with this for the most part. Sheik also combos him very hard.

To put that in comparison, he has the longest grab in game, 0-death combos on the spacies, one of the best edgeguarding games around, and one of the best aerial games around.

I think you're overestimating the significance of a CG on Fox & Falco. Everyone can death combo Fox & Falco. I agree with this for the most part though.

tl;dr marth is just right where he is

Indeed.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Can't wait to pwn Zenith and SHOOT LINK TEN SPACES UP.

I do think Link and Young Link should be a bit higher, though. They have awesome combo potential. A good hitconfirm with Link can combo into KO at ~50-60% on a spacie. (To be fair, though, I don't play many good Mario/Luigi/DK players, so I dunno.)

Things that can consistently combo into Dair (against Fox/Falco/Falcon):
-Dash attack
-Down tilt
-Down smash
-Up tilt
-Up smash
-Up air
-Up throw

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Dair doesn't KO at 50/60% though...

 

[Dan Salvato]

Dair doesn't KO at 50/60% though...

Correct, but if you get in a grab, downsmash, uptilt, downtilt, dash attack, or upair at ~50-60% then you're very likely able to combo into dair at KO percent.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

dair doesn't kill until 100+

 

[KirbyKaze]

Can't wait to pwn Zenith and SHOOT LINK TEN SPACES UP.

I do think Link and Young Link should be a bit higher, though. They have awesome combo potential. A good hitconfirm with Link can combo into KO at ~50-60% on a spacie. (To be fair, though, I don't play many good Mario/Luigi/DK players, so I dunno.)

Things that can consistently combo into Dair (against Fox/Falco/Falcon):
-Dash attack
-Down tilt
-Down smash
-Up tilt
-Up smash
-Up air
-Up throw

Never post in this thread again.

 

[ZaXXoR]

I think you're overestimating the significance of a CG on Fox & Falco. Everyone can death combo Fox & Falco. I agree with this for the most part though.


Indeed.

This^^^^ CG shennanigans to fair GF

 

[KirbyKaze]

Regarding killing Fox & Falco (and Falcon, I guess):

Anyone who has good tech chasing (which is a reflection of moves & some sort of non-committal or fast movement), can set up decent tech traps (moves that knock over early), a decent aerial finisher (or high vertical range ground one), a generic launcher (throw or otherwise) and some way of manipulating trajectory to make all this happen can death combo the spacies and Falcon. That might seem like a tall order, but it's really not. At all. Every single character in the top 8 has the bulk of this mix except maybe Puff (and Marth lacks a generically applicable, strong aerial finisher) but I think people underrate her tech chasing - her aerial mobility lets her chain knockdowns from aerials into more knockdowns really easily and she's great at covering multiple platform techs with her giant moves (Pound, bair, uair, etc).



More on Marth (platform edition):

Marth on platforms is not as bad as people make it out of be SOMETIMES. It's very character dependent. Foxes fortunately haven't realized that SH uair pokes through every current legal platform except the ones on Dreamland. This allows him to stay underneath and pressure, which makes WD off and such a lot less effective. It beats Counter because Fox is below the platform the whole time. It pokes through shields well too (many times the first hit has shrunk the shield and the second hit gone through it). Falcon is obviously amazing vs a platformed Marth because of dancing and uair. Sheik is less good than those two but still decent (her bair is so aggravating). Basically, to have decent pressure vs platformed Marth that causes him headaches, you need to hit through the platform with a SH aerial but reach the ground really fast. You also need to be fast or have moves that easily cover his WDs and such if he tries to out-wait you - Falcon, Fox, and Sheik obviously excel at this. I'd say another Marth can do it too but... whatever. Dittos don't really affect placement because they're set at even always (except vs M2K).

I'm not sure how I feel about Falco vs a platformed Marth. Marth can often avoid being comboed hard by stray shines (you get... a bair... a lot of the time) and shine-lands are so overrated for following a platformed opponent (unless you're comboing) because your options are so limited. I don't think shine-land is good vs Marth in general. That said, he can do Fox's uair thing (and arguably better 'cuz slighty higher jump makes the sweetspot hit more likely to hit in this situation) but his uair isn't as good as Fox's. That said, I think he can be a giant douche to Marth so I don't see the safety thing.

The floaties can't really do much about respect defenses though. Too slow.

I'm not sure how shield drop into whatever interacts with this but I don't think it does much because the opponent is still below Marth and fairly inside his zone. Where Marth doesn't want them. It likely improves him, but I'd imagine it does so more vs characters like Peach and Puff, where he's already okay (as long as he doesn't try to challenge them when he shouldn't and accepts he will lose a bit of stage... which blows, but it beats getting hit, comboed, and killed).

Oh yeah. Fox & Falco's multi-hit aerials are AMAZING against Marth if he's at the edge of the platform. His low traction coupled with being pushed by the multi-hit makes it very easy to get dumb dairs, fairs, or uairs against him and combo off them (because l-cancel removes all but a teensy bit of lag and comboing off aerials with spacies is super easy - especially when CC isn't a factor because they're in the air).



Regarding Link:

Link is absolutely atrocious. His options are good in a vacuum but the amount of preemptive work he needs to avoid grabs and such because of his HORRIBLE jump speed and ground movement forces him to do too much work for a long period of time in order to win. I say "Long period of time" because his combo game is incredibly underwhelming and he doesn't have a good way to go about getting first hits vs Fox, Falco, and Sheik. These MUs are so unbelievably brutal if played correctly. Link has neither the speed to play a run away game nor does he have the damage, offensive space coverage, & strength (his main moves are really weak and exert little pressure) to be the aggressor. His most relevant projectile (the bomb) can be swat by freaking lasers, which removes a lot of his ability to approach with them against campy spacies (and you seriously don't even need to aim the lasers... just basic SHDL with Fox will almost always beat it - Falco requires more precision or some craftiness [for once]). This basically leaves Link with a footsie game and his aerials. Which, quite simply, isn't enough.

He gets some points for being decent vs top characters that don't totally shut him down (Puff, Peach, ICs, Falcon [the way that modern Falcon plays this one, anyway, but this should also be a really bad one]). Marth is a grey area I refuse to acknowledge. However, having 3 HORRIBLE matchups where the entirety of what makes Link good evaporates is really hard. And they're the three most popular characters.

He also suffers from lacking a gimmick. Yoshi is way better at winning for no reason than Link is, just because Yoshi can get a noob animal and arbitrarily death combo them when they're trying to figure out his shield. Yoshi is probably worse vs Peach and ICs, but being better vs Fox, Falco, Falcon, and Sheik is worth a lot. Yes, I said Sheik. Because Link cannot outpace her CG because of his flimsy punishment game (and he cannot avoid being grabbed on the grounds of his atrocious speed) whereas Yoshi might actually land some dumb combos and is way better at dodging grabs (although he's not good at it either).



Regarding Samus vs Ganon (and Ganon as a character in general):

I still think Samus is better because I feel her first hit game is more cohesive and she has better base strategies (WD back into an attack, Up+B OOS, missile into something, jab mixups on shield, dash dance is pretty good, overall good ground movement) whereas Ganon basically can only let the opponent run into moves unless he basically predicts they'll retreat a very specific amount of space and then covers it (which, IMO, still counts as 'opponent running into moves' - they're just running backwards). His punishment game and numerous illegitimate death combos (and obvious good positions) are really strong, which makes him incredibly volatile, but I feel that his inability to use a reactive still effectively (since almost everything must be preemptive) and the obvious zones he controls (and lack of a projectile or similar tool to mitigate this weakness like Peach) makes him simply... too predictable. I feel like when I get hit by him, I basically got tricked or did something dumb. He can't just hit people with a basic strategy that's pretty good & applicable to most situations (dash dance grab with Marth, Sheik WD back, Falcon dash dance, Fox platform camp vs floaties, Falco's everything, etc). I feel even some low tiers like Roy outclass Ganon in this regard (although Roy is miles worse because of inability to kill people with good recoveries and how many hits he actually needs to win - it's rather depressing [unless it's FD spacies or something]).



Some random thoughts on ICs:

I think people need to experiment with not smashing out of the throw vs floaties and do things like uair or the launch fair to keep Peach and friends lower to the ground so they can keep harassing them with light launch moves. ICs, to their credit, are hard to combo-break because of their disjointed godlike uair. I also am fully convinced they are better than Falcon under the MBR recommended ruleset with wobbling (although Falcon is definitely better when CP stages are on and/or wobbling is off). I hate this character so much. One of the good ICs (Chu, Trail, Wobbles, Fly, Uber [if he still plays]) should move to Canada (specifically Toronto) so I can learn this MU and not suck so much blood-filled, erect, reproductive organ. I hate how bad I am vs them.

-_-




Zelda is awesome but she is unbelievably terrible. Up smash OOS seems to beat bad Falcos by itself but good ones don't care about it and either space or just grab her and toss her offstage or above them. Grab ***** Zelda so hard. Her f-smash continues to impress me, but it's not enough. She's got all of Ganon's weaknesses exacerbated except her recovery is situationally better. She's got more durability vs throw combos (although she's also easier to grab and aside from kicks lacks a real heavy damage equalizer [and kick =/= combo in terms of damage] so it's not a good trade by any means), she has a fast option OOS but it's really flimsy & low range, she doesn't have a move that hits above her effectively, and she's so slow she needs to be even more preemptive than Ganon to protect herself, which means a reactive style is super hard to play because you have to scramble so much just to keep a decent positioning vs all these much faster characters. At least Ganon has fast, safe ground pokes and a waveland so he can pretend he's got a positioning game. Zelda has neither (15 frame jab wtf why?). I love her but it seriously feels like she's if Puff, Peach, and Ganon had a baby and the baby had down's syndrome. I think she might be better than Roy, but I'm hesitant to put her up any further. Her only good traits are her decent MUs with Peach and ICs. Everything else is really bad (among the good characters). Then again, Roy is sort of playable vs FFers and about as playable vs Sheik so maybe Roy should be higher... although Peach is much better vs ICs and Peach than Roy is vs FFers (except maybe Falcon) as far as I'm concerned.

-_-




Ness is freaking garbage. I really want him to be better than he is but I seriously don't see it. He has no real safe ground poke (dash attack is solely an anti-air if the opponent knows the limitations of Ness's dash attack [ASDI down, CC, shield, etc]). He can't crouch anything (productively), he can't shield into stuff (productively), and he lacks a clear strategy to hit the opponent aside from "make them run into things". He's like Ganon only he doesn't have the punishment & tech chase opportunities whenever he touches his opponent with anything. And he lacks a DJ > waveland and has slow rising jumps so repositioning is tough as balls. His recovery being as horrific as it is exacerbates his dependency on going through people to get to the middle (or playing a better footsie). It's easy to bait him (he has to commit first to defend himself 'cuz of relatively slow moves) and push him back. Just feels like his only good features are for highly specific forms of combat and a fairly good combo game (but still subpar when you really think about it - all his stuff is really situational or depends on glittery multi-hit moves [SDIable]). Granted, you probably won't encounter people who know to SDI Ness fairs very often, but his moves' inconsistencies are a problem.



Pikachu continues to baffle me. I get that his range is sucky aside from the space his low-priority-yet-fast (frame 3 wtf) Nair comes out in but that one long move makes spacing against him really weird. His SH(FF)L nair is longer than a Fox SHFFL so I don't think just waiting outside it works as well as it does vs Fox - crouch and shield make him cross me up and while a good WD or roll counters the follow ups & reflex covers (FJ uair behind them) I also don't really get anything - maybe I should be just focusing on not getting hit & grabbed myself? Maybe bair OOS? Gah. I hate characters I can't practice against and I feel the bias seeping into this analysis blatantly. At any rate, I just don't get the spacing against him. I'm fairly certain he's better than Ganon (he's better vs spacies, Falcon, and Sheik IMO which is enough - Ganon is better vs Peach and ICs and I refuse to touch Marth & Puff on this one).

I hope I can coax Tope into giving me his low tier & anti-Falcon technique (this may be hard, he's at sea - I may need to infiltrate the navy). But until I get my epiphany, I'll just call the exterminator (M2K) and hope Axe & the Falcons gets M2K before I'm knee-deep in up airs.

 

[Deleted member]

He also suffers from lacking a gimmick.

Loaded question time yayyyyy.

I found an interesting gimmick with Link a few years back, but it's mostly based on play style and not mechanics. While experimenting with Link's moves, I realized that many of them share 2 really nice properties: they're high priority, and they "stay out". As in they either actually stay out like nair, dair, etc or they stay out for practical reasons but not really like bair or fsmash.

This leads me to believe that Link should be played based more around his sword attacks than his boots, grabs, or projectiles. That is, if your opponent is prone to running into attacks, Link is bound to better than he deserves to, particularly if you make good use of upair. You can make this happen more often by banning FD, staying grounded more than usual, and doing setups with dsmash or uptilt to get things started. What say you to my gimmick?

edit: putting pikachu above ganon is about 5 cactuars.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I feel like when I get hit by him, I basically got tricked

As a Ganon main, I'm fairly certain that's exactly what we try to do. Our goal is to trick you into walking into one of our attacks so we can beat you up. It's all about the mindgames, man.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Loaded question time yayyyyy.

I found an interesting gimmick with Link a few years back, but it's mostly based on play style and not mechanics. While experimenting with Link's moves, I realized that many of them share 2 really nice properties: they're high priority, and they "stay out". As in they either actually stay out like nair, dair, etc or they stay out for practical reasons but not really like bair or fsmash.

This leads me to believe that Link should be played based more around his sword attacks than his boots, grabs, or projectiles. That is, if your opponent is prone to running into attacks, Link is bound to better than he deserves to, particularly if you make good use of upair. You can make this happen more often by banning FD, staying grounded more than usual, and doing setups with dsmash or uptilt to get things started. What say you to my gimmick?

edit: putting pikachu above ganon is about 5 cactuars.

I think jumping around with dair and sword moves is actually really good with Link (and people need to do it more) because of how much aerial mobility Link has (so easy to edgecancel everything with him) but he has super terrible levels like FD to contend with (jumping around with slow bullcrap is nerfed there - I know you addressed this, but lack of ban in bo5 makes 'just ban it' less strong of an argument). In addition... this returns to the whole speed thing. His options are slow and using his sword moves exacerbates this (although he gets the muscle & stuff he needs to make big plays happen, at the cost of a lot of safety & such but since he sucks anyway maybe it's worth it).

Basically, I agree that Link should swing more in this crazy SSBM metagame. But he also lacks the range & speed to be the aggressor (no option like Fox SHFFL nair or Roy's dash dance). The fact that space animals nullify the main way he goes on offense (projectile into stuff, like ghetto Peach) is a problem because then he doesn't have a cover and they can just... outposition him all day. Sheik can also do this, although she actually has to respect the bombs somewhat so this aspect of the MU is less bad (the punishment is way worse though and Sheik isn't bad by any means at first hits vs slow characters).

Pikachu better than Ganon may be 5 Cactuars but acting like Ganon is better vs the FFers and Sheik is a good 6. Ganon's size & total lack of speed are huge issues.

As a Ganon main, I'm fairly certain that's exactly what we try to do. Our goal is to trick you into walking into one of our attacks so we can beat you up. It's all about the mindgames, man.

That feeling when you walk into Ganon's bair for the third time in a row... :/

Anyway, Ganon's only good stuff is that all his moves knock over, do massive damage, and are generally huge. This combination means every time he hits something it might lead to some wacky death combo or pressure situation where he's at advantage (and you need, like, 4-6 hits to kill most characters and can subtract one hit for every followup you got from the hit). And it's easy to choke against him because his moves all do massive damage and gay throw combos, etc.

 

[Dan Salvato]

Loaded question time yayyyyy.

I found an interesting gimmick with Link a few years back, but it's mostly based on play style and not mechanics. While experimenting with Link's moves, I realized that many of them share 2 really nice properties: they're high priority, and they "stay out". As in they either actually stay out like nair, dair, etc or they stay out for practical reasons but not really like bair or fsmash.

This leads me to believe that Link should be played based more around his sword attacks than his boots, grabs, or projectiles. That is, if your opponent is prone to running into attacks, Link is bound to better than he deserves to, particularly if you make good use of upair. You can make this happen more often by banning FD, staying grounded more than usual, and doing setups with dsmash or uptilt to get things started. What say you to my gimmick?

edit: putting pikachu above ganon is about 5 cactuars.

That's not so much a gimmick as it is a legitimate playstyle/technique. Link's nair trades with EVERYTHING. That means you'll be getting hit much harder than your opponent, making it a better escape or edgeguard than an approach if your opponent has a modicum of reading skill. I find he has a strong bait game with his sword, in part by baiting with a whiffed shffl'd fair, then WDing back and eating the opponent's punish with a crouch cancel --> dsmash. (Doesn't work against Falco, of course.) Ledge-cancelled dairs are also a fantastic bait, as well as several other stupid techniques I don't feel like listing, haha.

I actually have documented a huge list of Link gimmicks that work surprisingly well.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That feeling when you walk into Ganon's bair for the third time in a row... :/

That feeling is also part of our strategy. We're aren't just messing with your mind, we're messing with your emotions as well. It's why Ganondorf is a villain.

Also, everything you said about Ganon seems fairly accurate.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've played Linguini and Kage a bunch of times and my little brother (and one of my first serious training partners) was a Ganon main.

I know Ganon.

I'm likely biased against him because he presents no threat to me whereas Axe and Plup both beat me in the world crew battle / a friendly (and I rarely expect to lose to Kage ever, although Linguini's tricks sometimes get the better of me once in a few games) and I thought those characters (Samus & Pika) were free as hell. It's possible they are, but I feel like Ganon doesn't have as much stuff to learn when fighting him and the greater options of Samus & Pika give them more ways to be good.

I'm managing a new perception of the smash cast and it just feels like speed, waiting until the last second to swing, and ground safety are favoured. Ganon struggles at those.

I think it's easier to lose to Ganon if you're not MU savvy (by a bit - Pika's gimps & combos are really dangerous vs uninformed opponents), but I feel that he gets a lot worse as people get better & learn the MU. Pika and Samus do too, but not to the degree that Ganon does (I feel).

 

[Bing]

KK when did you play Plup in a world crew battle?

 

[KirbyKaze]

World crew battle = Axe

A friendly = Plup

Although if we go back to Pound 5 then "friendly" is appropriate for Axe too (although in my defense I was also a lot worse back then)

 

[odinNJ]

the ultimate john "i lost because i was worse." also, whats everyones take on all three mario's positions in the tier list? Also Mewtwo?

 

[Bing]

haha Yeah Plups pretty good, got to play both his Samus and Fox at Apex for a few hours.

 

[Deleted member]

mewtwo is unplayable.

mario is redeemed by his grab game somewhat but he's no doc.

losing because you're worse than your opponent is a very convincing means of losing.

i think ganon is better vs sheik than pikachu is because he can grab her back or something. you just don't know the pikachu MU and your hesitation/confusion is heavy and tangible watching your match with axe.

FD should obviously be CP at this point.

samus is free as hell for sheik. i think plup is just really really good.

i think as a general rule, no one has the "speed and range to be the aggressor" besides fox/falco. it's funny because fox doesn't want to be the aggressor either. falco is still undecided.

 

[Ripple]

I think Y. link is better than mario but worse than luigi. He's a great up and coming character now, he doesn't have really terrible match ups and can deal with floaties extremely well

 

[Warhawk]

I always felt that Pikachu and Ganon got wrecked pretty much equally as hard by Sheik. I just think for both of them its not very good.

 

[choknater]

ylink has pretty bad matchups with sheik and fox. bc they can prevent him from pulling bombs

falco, falcon, and marth have the advantage too, but only if they have offensive momentum.

i've been getting better with ylink though and i'm starting to find that he can really fight well vs a lot of characters

 

[odinNJ]

losing because you're worse than your opponent is a very convincing means of losing.

.

you didnt get my sarcasm.

 

[Deleted member]

you didnt get my sarcasm.

you didn't get mine.

YL vs fox is IMO one of the worst matchups in the entire game. a technically proficient fox can just do moves at the character blindly and it's horribly hopeless.

 

[choknater]

not blindly

i'm pretty sure the rumored matches of armada's ylink beating lovage and pc chris were true

the main priority is preventing bomb pulls. with a bomb in hand, he can fight any character.

 

[KirbyKaze]

mewtwo is unplayable.

Probably.

mario is redeemed by his grab game somewhat but he's no doc.

Indeed.

losing because you're worse than your opponent is a very convincing means of losing.

*shrug*

I guess. I dunno. Even when I was a lot worse it just felt like Ganon can't do much. The way he spaces isn't really conducive to getting his death grabs and his ability to chase a knockdown into grab is pretty crap. This leaves him with... evade-grab and shield-grab, which are both alright but hindered by bad movement and his tiny grab range (whiffs on Sheik's duck, which is gay).

i think ganon is better vs sheik than pikachu is because he can grab her back or something. you just don't know the pikachu MU and your hesitation/confusion is heavy and tangible watching your match with axe.

I'm willing to accept this. That said, I still think Pika manages FFers better. And I don't think Ganon is miles better vs Sheik or anything either. Pika also has reasonable punishes on Sheik via throw (u-throw u-smash is a legit combo for a good percent range and his b-throw is really good against her recovery style).

FD should obviously be CP at this point.

Probably. I think the stigma against PS will keep it as CP forever though, despite the fact that it violates conventional play much less than FD does (although I do like Pink Reaper's FD = most neutral argument). If only we had Smashville.

samus is free as hell for sheik. i think plup is just really really good.

He is. And Samus is free for Sheik, sure. I was thrown off by Plup's weird missile stuff and the fact that his poking was much better than any Samus I'd ever seen up to that point (and still now, come to think of it). That said, I think Ganon is about equally free.

i think as a general rule, no one has the "speed and range to be the aggressor" besides fox/falco. it's funny because fox doesn't want to be the aggressor either. falco is still undecided.

I really want to make my tier list evaluations using significantly less risky space animals but modern space animal play is really reckless :/

Nurgle. We can talk about this further on AIM if you want, but I don't think we'll really get anywhere. Might be decent theory though.

 

[Max?]

not blindly

i'm pretty sure the rumored matches of armada's ylink beating lovage and pc chris were true

the main priority is preventing bomb pulls. with a bomb in hand, he can fight any character.

Armada's Y. Link took a game off PC in a set, but he got ***** in the two games PC won. Should be in Prog's stream archives from back in January

 

[choknater]

oh aight aight haha

 

[Geenareeno]

Everything KK has said about Ganon is so accurate. The only way you can land a hit is by tricking them. Seriously if everyone learned the matchup Ganon would be hanging out with Luigi. Also idk about Ganon doing better vs. Sheik than Pika. Yeah he can cg, but it's really hard to not mess up (no one has used it in tournament) and he doesn't have the speed that Pika does. Like that matchup is so bad.

 

[choknater]

tricks and gimmicks are the only way i play.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

In the world of perfect spacing, where Kirby is clearly the best character, tricks and gimmicks will be the only way to play.

For the sake of conversation, let's imagine what a world with perfect spacing would look like. Let's say I'm beating up KK with Ganon. I decide to Warlock Punch. Because I've spaced it perfectly, it's going to hit. However, KK knows the spacing for Warlock Punch, and he has also spaced it perfectly, meaning it's going to miss. Therefore, in the world of perfect spacing, my Warlock Punch will both hit and miss KK at the same time.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Ok, that avatar is bugging me (in the good way). What anime is it from, and who is she?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

In perfect spacing, Roy would be high tier and Marth would be the CEO.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Ok, that avatar is bugging me (in the good way). What anime is it from, and who is she?

Azusa Nakano, K-On.

 

[Armada]

Armada's Y. Link took a game off PC in a set, but he got ***** in the two games PC won. Should be in Prog's stream archives from back in January

Yeah the two games PC won was two stocs and they one I won was 1 stock (maybe 2 stock with high damage?)

Y link can actually play at smaller stages like YS and BF against fox but dreamland (the one I lost at) is bull****

Against Lovage I think I won 3 out of 5 games but It could have been 4 out of 6 games.

 

[PK Webb]

In the world of perfect spacing, where Kirby is clearly the best character, tricks and gimmicks will be the only way to play.

For the sake of conversation, let's imagine what a world with perfect spacing would look like. Let's say I'm beating up KK with Ganon. I decide to Warlock Punch. Because I've spaced it perfectly, it's going to hit. However, KK knows the spacing for Warlock Punch, and he has also spaced it perfectly, meaning it's going to miss. Therefore, in the world of perfect spacing, my Warlock Punch will both hit and miss KK at the same time.

aka this game wud be so boring because only phantom hits wud occur

 

[KingofCereal]

And Laser camping would reach barwlevels.