Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

Gentlemen, we need to all come to the agreement that results do not matter in a tier list argument.

I mean, if we just stopped and looked at Marth as a character by himself, we'd realize that this really is the best character in the game, to the point where he's almost egregiously overpowered.

His sword is long, so his spacing and mingames r 2 gud.

i dont see why tourney placement shouldn't matter. explain why.

Also its easy to make marth seem good when u only point out strengths and ignore is obvious weaknesses. in fact let me make peach seem overpowered

Peach can fc so her aerials r safe on shield and extremely safe even if she doesnt hit anything at all, she has a amazing recovery so u almost always need to send her past a blast zone to kill her, she has a move that can do incredible amounts of damage.

now i will make marth seem worst.

marth's attacks r not active for very long so he can be easy to get in on since his moves dont protect him long enough. he has some trouble killing at higher %'s b/c he cant combo into tippers easily after certain %'s. his recovery is not very good.

marth is not the 2nd best in this game, he is ether perfect where he is or he should be tied with peach or even move down under her. there is no reason to believe he should move up atm.

edit:

i believe that a marth with perfect spacing can beat anyone. i put falco fifth cause once people can powersheild consistently i think he'll be a glorified falcon. and i think peach has more potential than even armada has tapped into. and i think puff is over rated

really well i think a fox played perfectly can beat anyone even a perfect spacing marth (this is a fact btw)... so since we r humans and cant be perfect why should we even consider where a perfect spacing marth should be?

 

[Wake]

i believe that a marth with perfect spacing can beat anyone. i put falco fifth cause once people can powersheild consistently i think he'll be a glorified falcon. and i think peach has more potential than even armada has tapped into. and i think puff is over rated

I agree that Peach has much more potential.

 

[Frisbie]

marth can do two fairs in one short hop, which protects him pretty well. and who needs a recovery if you dont get hit?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox and Falco have no bad matchups, and they win their matchups harder

Sheik's only bad matchups are like, space animals (Falco is arguably even).... and KINDA ICs just cuz Sheiks are bad against ICs

Puff is harder than Fox and Falco can hope to be. You might be right on ICs.

The only reason I put Marth over Falco is because a) I like Martth more personally lol b) the whole recovery thing...

Why do all of your ideas seem ripped out of like 2006? Also, no because no. This opinion is invalid.

two things make a good recovery: distance and options

falco has mediocre distance but great options

kirby is an example of a character with good distance but few options

Options are way more important than distance. Distance also influences options because of obvious reasons (you cannot jump backwards with some characters at certain distances because it eliminates certain recovery options, for instance). In a related note, Kirby has lousy distance. General defense stats are also an important because some characters don't lag onstage, or have resistance to being killed (or comboed) so landing onstage with lag isn't that big of a deal because duh. These characters obviously have better recoveries than ones that also share those weaknesses (lagging onstage, etc) but actually die from being comboed or whatever.

On that note, I think distance is overrated (but still important).

marth can do two fairs in one short hop, which protects him pretty well. and who needs a recovery if you dont get hit?

This may actually be the dumbest post I've seen in a while and I've been reading the Ness boards.

i believe that a marth with perfect spacing can beat anyone. i put falco fifth cause once people can powersheild consistently i think he'll be a glorified falcon. and i think peach has more potential than even armada has tapped into. and i think puff is over rated

I want to explore the Marth with perfect spacing = godlike argument because it keeps popping up, especially with new people. So I've devised a series of questions that communicate my qualms with this line of thinking. They are below:

How is Marth going about hitting his opponents if he's maintaining perfect spacing? What kind of perfect spacing is this? Is it perfect offensive spacing? Defensive? How does Marth challenge characters faster than himself from this type of spacing to acquire hits? Would a Sheik with perfect spacing beat a Marth with perfect spacing? Morever, isn't spacing a two-player game? Can two characters be spacing perfectly at the same time? If Marth is out-spacing his opponent the entire game, wouldn't that be a reflection of player skill rather than character potential? I ask the last question because wouldn't a Sheik with perfect spacing also beat every character in the game?

If Peach can overcome Jigglypuff then I will entertain the argument that she's better than Marth. Until she can, I have her below Marth. Sheik is not as crippling to Marth as Puff is to Peach as far as I'm concerned.

What problems does falcon have that ICs don't? ICs have a worse time OoS. Falcon doesn't get platform camped. Falcon converts 1 hit into 1 stock more efficiently. Falcon doesn't get hit once and play monkey in the middle with half of his character for the rest of the stock.

Problems Falcon has that ICs don't - Crouching Sheik and Puff. Falco's lasers & combo game are also significantly more irritating to Falcon than they are to ICs from what I can tell and from what people are saying. I would also add Pikachu to this list tentatively because ICs are supposed to brutally **** him and Falcon is a gray area MU (which probably means it's not as bad as brutal ****).

ICs have a worse time OOS - I disagree with this. I think ICs shield game is very slanted, but overall decent. Have you seen their WD OOS? Moreover, ICs deter whole characters from grabbing their shield because of all the bullcrap they can do to them. Shielding is unlikely to create direct openings but the risk is generally low too, whereas Falcon takes a larger risk by shielding because his OOS defense and resistance to grab combos are both pretty meh. There is likely an argument for Falcon being better OOS when WD OOS is not a viable option (i.e. the edge) but neither character is particularly good in that position when shielding anyway.

Falcon converts 1 hit into 1 stock more efficiently - I dislike this point because it sways greatly based on the ruleset and has obvious problems when you dip into important characters like Sheik and Falcon where the ICs can straight up chain grab them regardless of DI (and wait for Nana to catch up and then go to work). Like, against Marth, Marios, Peach, etc. I can agree with this. But I can't agree with this against Sheik, Puff, Falcon, etc. Spacies are weird. Also, if wobbling is legal I just disagree with it outright.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

marth can do two fairs in one short hop, which protects him pretty well. and who needs a recovery if you dont get hit?

the fairs dont protect him well enough. fair starts high which means people can get under it. u dont really have a good argument for marth, u just think b/c he has good range he can just space and be perfectly safe which just isn't true.

marth will be hit since it is humans playing the game, and for the fact that even in perfect play he's not even in the top 4 (idk where he would be in a perfect play tier list b/c i only know the top 4) so not even in perfect world does your argument hold water.

 

[Warhawk]

id say that falco has terrible distance and mediocre options...

How are his options mediocre? His phantasm is really quick and can be shortened at will to throw off your opponent. Its also one of the easier recoveries to edgecancel, which helps too. While Falco's generally considered dead if he has to firebird below the ledge, while he's using it above the ledge he has some tricks he can pull with the number of angles he can use that can be difficult for some characters in some situations.

 

[Twinkles]

lolno, kk u just dun get it
Marth's spacing and mindgames
R 2 GUD

In all seriousness though, some points I'll randomly address

Falco's recovery is actually really really good. It's not good if falco just got d-throw -> jab by marth bcuz anytime he uses up-b under the stage, it's game over. Apart from that tho, he can mix up illusion heights and distances with a double jump, and up-b has eight directions including the diagonal ledgegrab firebird that a lot of people fail to hit.

not including his recovery moves, falco has pretty good weight and can survive to pretty high percentages given he isnt hit by a stray tipper or knee...considering falco's terrific ability for control, id say this is a pretty good trade-off

and how much does powershielding really shut down falco? its certainly a fantastic option against falco, but falcos dont just rely on lasers and there are ways to get around powershielding

if ur talking about powershielding everything, when then i dont know which character would NOT be shut down. someone help me here

i really dont think marth should be above 5th. he deals with the spacies about as well as shiek or puff (slightly better than them but still) and generally does worse against the rest of the cast. and someone explain why perfect spacing benefits marth the most, even if it's just to humor the opposite argument, explain please

 

[Warhawk]

Firebird has way more than eight directions lol.

 

[JPOBS]

my ****ing face when people think marth has a better recovery than falco.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well...everyone has their right to their own opinion...right? I think?

 

[john!]

Well...everyone has their right to their own opinion...right? I think?

that is a common misconception; only smart and cool and sexy people have a right to their own opinion

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falco has the quickest and highest double jump of the viables. And he has a shine stall. And a wall jump. And he can immediately double jump dair which equals instant stock loss if you went off the stage after him. And quick, long recovery moves. Honestly, I think fox and falco are the hardest characters to gimp...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Problems Falcon has that ICs don't - Crouching Sheik and Puff. Falco's lasers & combo game are also significantly more irritating to Falcon than they are to ICs from what I can tell and from what people are saying. I would also add Pikachu to this list tentatively because ICs are supposed to brutally **** him and Falcon is a gray area MU (which probably means it's not as bad as brutal ****).

ICs have a worse time OOS - I disagree with this. I think ICs shield game is very slanted, but overall decent. Have you seen their WD OOS? Moreover, ICs deter whole characters from grabbing their shield because of all the bullcrap they can do to them. Shielding is unlikely to create direct openings but the risk is generally low too, whereas Falcon takes a larger risk by shielding because his OOS defense and resistance to grab combos are both pretty meh. There is likely an argument for Falcon being better OOS when WD OOS is not a viable option (i.e. the edge) but neither character is particularly good in that position when shielding anyway.

Falcon converts 1 hit into 1 stock more efficiently - I dislike this point because it sways greatly based on the ruleset and has obvious problems when you dip into important characters like Sheik and Falcon where the ICs can straight up chain grab them regardless of DI (and wait for Nana to catch up and then go to work). Like, against Marth, Marios, Peach, etc. I can agree with this. But I can't agree with this against Sheik, Puff, Falcon, etc. Spacies are weird. Also, if wobbling is legal I just disagree with it outright.

Very valid points. I'm not sure if falco's combos are worse for falcon than ICs; i've always considered falco to do quite well in the match-up, partially due to his combos.

In terms of shield options, my original wording included something along the lines of "if you don't count wavedash Oos" but I deleted it before post. In that sense I agree with you, ICs are able to get away with shielding more because of the wavedash. In terms of actual attacks out of shield, I think falcon is much better off. ICs grab range is quite small, though dangerous. Their aerials are also not very viable out of shield (in some scenarios bair and uair are useful). Also simply being able to fullhop out of shield is often useful.

As for the damage output, i agree that it depends on the match-up and the rules.


Gah i don't think im going to be posting much anymore. It takes quite a bit of time to logically explain my points and I don't consider myself a good enough player to just say my opinion without backing it up. I'd rather spend my times doing other things, like actually getting good at melee and doing other productive things

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wobbling is overrated. ICs can take stocks from almost anywhere on stage just with a couple of the escapable CGs > hand off.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Wobbling is just the most guaranteed, simplest way to do it (if I understand it correctly). Being able to grab someone and kill them off of very little work, as opposed to Falcon, who has to work significantly harder, counts for something, right? Or am I thinking about it incorrectly?

 

[odinNJ]

three things
One: shrouded one, falcon's game is not completely reliant on grabs, as opposed to ICs
Two: "This may actually be the dumbest post I've seen in a while and I've been reading the Ness boards." why did you have to fire shots unnecesarily?
Three: i dont know why people think that:
a) marth has a good recovery
, b) hes the best/second best because "he has a sword and if you space perfectly hell always win" this is the lamest justification of marth ever.
c) falco has a bad recovery.

all three of these are partially wrong/fully wrong

 

[Frisbie]

dude kk youre mean bro

also i just kind of **** that out there. ive never really thought that much about the tier lists, and frankly i dont care about them

 

[Strong Badam]

Wobbling is overrated. ICs can take stocks from almost anywhere on stage just with a couple of the escapable CGs > hand off.

it's strictly better than an escapable CG. it's also FAR easier to do on a platform.

 

[KingofCereal]

Falcon is helped by the fact that smashers love him. Compare this love to the dearth of IC mains. SSBPD has 177 Falcon mains listed and 50 IC mains. If 3 times the people used IC, they would definitely be pushed further. More tricks would surface and become common. And I think as a result of their options being better analyzed, they would surpass Falcon easily. Maybe even higher, but just maybe.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

it's strictly better than an escapable CG. it's also FAR easier to do on a platform.

Oh its definitely better, I just don't think it warrants a change in tier position like heaps of people here think.

And if I feel like I might mess up the dthrow hand-off on a platform I just use fthrow lol

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it definitely raises them by at least 1 spot. It doesn't suddenly eliminate ICs weaknesses, just improves their strength in punishing.

 

[past_b]

How are his options mediocre? His phantasm is really quick and can be shortened at will to throw off your opponent. Its also one of the easier recoveries to edgecancel, which helps too. While Falco's generally considered dead if he has to firebird below the ledge, while he's using it above the ledge he has some tricks he can pull with the number of angles he can use that can be difficult for some characters in some situations.

ok, thinking about it further, you are right, he does have a lot of options, maybe more options than any most or any other character in the game minus fox obviously.

i just cant get past his fast falling characteristics and how it adversely affects his recovery so much. falco with like peach's type of di and floatiness would make his recovery exponentially better. of course if he had peach's floatiness he would be unable to combo like he does so thats a moot point.

 

[Bones0]

The deal with Falco's recovery is it's either really good or really bad. In almost any situation, a Peach will be able to recover. Even without a DJ, she can just DI up and her up-B lets her get above the stage without falling hardly at all. Falco's recovery is really all or nothing. If he still has his DJ, covering all of his options is almost impossible, and he can often get stage control back quickly by Phantasming through people or ledge cancelling. The reason people consider it bad is because if he doesn't have his DJ, he loses pretty much all of his options. LH attacks suddenly cover all of his Phantasm options, and the second he is forced to up-B he usually dies anyway. His recovery is also only useful when you can actually make it back. You can't just look the success rate of his recovery and decide that it's good. Marth's floatiness, side-B, and DJ fair make it POSSIBLE for him to get back from huge distances. The problem is that any time he is recovering from a huge distance, it's still a ****ty recovery. So obviously if you watch a Marth and calculate the success rate of his recovery it is going to be really low because he can almost always attempt a recovery. Then if you watch a Falco match, suddenly it seems like every time he recovers he makes it back. That's because when he's close to the stage and has his DJ, his recovery is amazing. The second he gets knocked off at those same distances Marth was recovering from, he is no longer even trying to recover. People also need to take into consideration where "recovering" actually ends. Does it end once you reach the ledge/stage? Peach's recovery is vastly better than everyone else's (except Puff), but she is like a ****** humping a doorknob trying to get off the ledge. She almost has to rely on some gimmick or mistake from her opponent by doing DJ float back **** or drop down up-B until she knocks the opponent over. There's also more matchup-specific considerations such as gimpability. Sure, Falco's recovery is damn good at lower percents, but that doesn't change the fact that when Falco players inevitably mess up his recovery he dies, where as Peach can mess up multiple times and still just parasol her way back to try again or up-B the second she dips below the ledge and hit pretty much anyone in her way.

tl;dr
Every character's recovery would seem amazing if they only tried to recover when it was likely they would make it back. Each character's recovery is extremely situational, so trying to figure out whose is better is pointless and impossible.

 

[Bing]

three things
Three: i dont know why people think that:
a) marth has a good recovery

lol you're such a Marth hater. He does have decent recovery, its not amazing or anything, but I mean compared to the rest of the cast, its pretty alright

, b) hes the best/second best because "he has a sword and if you space perfectly hell always win" this is the lamest justification of marth ever.

Some more Marth hate. Marth's only major flaw are that his ko options are fairly obvious, however he only has 2 bad MU's which atleast warrants him a high placing in the tier list. (Mind you a lot of his MU's are 50/50 or close to this area. He's just a safe character.

c) falco has a bad recovery.

He's a bird and has like no distance on his Firebird recovery, what the hell kind of ****ed up **** is that. Personally this aggrivates me because I play Fox more and when my recovery only handles like half the distance as Fox's, its just... HGNGJSK

 

[odinNJ]

Calling me a marth hater doesnt make me wrong. His recovery, sure he can make it back to the stage, but its SOOO obvious, and punishing is not that hard: CC/zshield/a move that has any range/priority, or just get on the ledge.
Falcos recovery is meh. Good options but bad distance, its the oppsite of marths.

Also when i say good versus bad recovery im not taking into account low tiers. Basically the top 14.
And marths only flaw is not obvious finishers, he also is slow, all of his aeirals start relatively high so he cant land safely. no projecttile, no safe way of coming down from above opponenet.
I do not hate marth im just not immedialty won over by his attractive strengths. Most people see marth and they are like "SWORD CHARACTER MEGA FLOATY HAS SPIKE AND FSMASH AND GRAB HES OBVIOUSLY THE BEST CHARACTER."
no

 

[KingofCereal]

How is Marth slow or mega floaty? Compare marth's speed to fox/falco/falcon he's one maybe two steps down (Bowser would be like 8 steps down). Compare Marth's floatiness to any actually floaty characters (peach jiggs samus, luigi) and its not even close. Marth has pretty average fall speed (similar to Sheik and Mario i think).

 

[Bing]

Calling me a marth hater doesnt make me wrong. His recovery, sure he can make it back to the stage, but its SOOO obvious, and punishing is not that hard: CC/zshield/a move that has any range/priority, or just get on the ledge.
Falcos recovery is meh. Good options but bad distance, its the oppsite of marths.

Also when i say good versus bad recovery im not taking into account low tiers. Basically the top 14.
And marths only flaw is not obvious finishers, he also is slow, all of his aeirals start relatively high so he cant land safely. no projecttile, no safe way of coming down from above opponenet.
I do not hate marth im just not immedialty won over by his attractive strengths. Most people see marth and they are like "SWORD CHARACTER MEGA FLOATY HAS SPIKE AND FSMASH AND GRAB HES OBVIOUSLY THE BEST CHARACTER."
no

Im not saying you're wrong because you're a Marth hater (You're a Marth hater because you main Roy!)

But I strongly disagree with most of what you said lol. Like, no one sees Marth and goes "Ooooo he's mega floaty and has a sword etc"(Mind you tippered F-smash is a legit excuse LOL

People Main Marth because he's a good character with not that many flaws and he's fluent and fancy and just yeah,

 

[Twinkles]

if falco doesnt get gimped, he'll live longer than puff
considering how good falco is on-stage, i'd say he's got it pretty good
y'all underestimating his survivability

@Bing what definitive reasons do you have for putting marth over falco? i mean, i like marth as much as the next guy, but falco kinda has it all. i can sorta see an argument over shiek depending on ur views of the MU's and i dont know enough about puff's MU's to argue for her, but falco has no bad MU's (as far as i know) and outright beats some chars Marth goes even with (Falcon in particular)

 

[odinNJ]

Lets look at the top tiers:
spacies. duh
jiggs: special case
sheik: fast runner quick moves
falcon: fastest char.
ics: hax wavedashing
peach: slow char with fast moves/float cancel

Marth is slow compared to 5 of the other 7 best characters

Im not saying he sucks, im saying he doesnt deserve the number one spot, or above spacies at all for that matter

@bing: very true about the roy thing.

 

[Bing]

Anyone who disputes Fox>Marth is dumb, thats an obvious one, Im just unsure about Falco's Location... Mind you I suppose despite my frustrations about his recovery, #2 is probably a safe bet. However I think Jiggs might be a bit high... I feel like Jiggs, Sheik and Marth are all relatively even and because I dislike Jiggs(though respect her as a good character) I feel like Marth and Sheik should be above her.

But Anyways moving on

 

[Bones0]

I would say Marth is tied with Sheik for 3rd fastest character behind Falcon and Fox. His WD is almost as good as ICs, and he has the best DD besides Falcon and Fox. His moves may be a LITTLE bit slower than most of the cast, but that's made up for by the fact that he can commit to moves earlier because they have more range. Yeah, fair starts out high, but when it reaches in front of him, it out-ranges almost every move, and outprioritizes the rest (Falcon's nair) because it's a sword.

 

[Bing]

Also Odin, you were saying that Marth has no moves that can attack characters who are lower(Im assuming this excludes Dair)

As Bones pointed out, Fair covers the who length of Marth's body AND some as well as when you nair, the swords pointing towards the ground, on a downward angle. So I wouldnt say that he cant attack when the person is below him.

 

[odinNJ]

Also Odin, you were saying that Marth has no moves that can attack characters who are lower(Im assuming this excludes Dair)

As Bones pointed out, Fair covers the who length of Marth's body AND some as well as when you nair, the swords pointing towards the ground, on a downward angle. So I wouldnt say that he cant attack when the person is below him.

If marth is stuck on a platform, what is he gonna do, use his laggy and akward dair. however i agree that his range somewhat remedies this.
Also calling marth one of the fastest characters is really stupid, sorry. there are so many low tiers who are much faster. Unless you are only considering top tiers

 

[Bing]

I still love your sig lol

No but Marth does have that issue of being stuck on platforms I will agree, I mean if he's falling its kind of an issue, look at how Fox Uairs him. I suppose you could shielddrop and if needed throw out a counter?

 

[Deleted member]

marth is fine on platforms. just do obvious respect defense > fall/WD off. no big deal.

 

[Bing]

Yeah generally if Im stuck on a platform as Marth with a Fox underneath me I just dd on the platform and run off/wd off one side and bair as a sort of safeguard.

 

[odinNJ]

I like my sig too.
I love johning about Roy.

Also, wavedashing off a platform will hardly save you from someone who can competently challenge Marths aerials.

 

[Bing]

But thank in part to Marth solid spacing and range abilities wding off a platform could be fine, besides, if you wd off a platform and fast fall, odds are the person underneath wont have time to truly react, hense why I dash dance a few times before heading off as a sort of mind game.

 

[odinNJ]

i can see that, its definatly not impossible, i just mean that he doesnt have an easy time with it like the face danimals

 

[Bing]

face danimals...


Im drunk... whats your excuse?

LMFAO

Just messin. Spacies **** up everyone and everything, so no matter what you do, you're ****ed.