Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[ShroudedOne]

But how can we know that one of Bowser's better MUs in the top tier is against Marth? We've never seen a high level match play out?

 

[Warhawk]

lol that's what i've been trying to tell thes epeople. marth sucks so bad

But its way more important to have a good matchup spread and solidly beat most the cast and go even or near even with the rest than it is to destroy 2/3rds of the cast but have several bad matchups among more common characters. Marth still beats these other characters solidly too, just not as badly as the rest of the high tiers do and these are the characters that are less common in tournament anyways so it doesn't really affect how good Marth is.

 

[Varist]

[glow] holy **** why did it take me so long to discover this

why is this a well-kept secret.

wtf. and i thought I was just tired[/glow]

 

[choknater]

for some reason when i read threads i am only interested in ice climbers discussion lmao

 

[Geenareeno]

Ice Climbers are bad. Discuss.

 

[Construct]

ICs go hard against Sheik from what i've seen. If spacies were banned, Marth would drop like a stone. The best thing he has going for him is his silly combo powers against fox/less extent falco. Sheik>Puff>Peach>Falcon>ICs>Marth>others in a spacie free world imo

 

[Bing]

...You're saying that Marth would fall like a rock if we remove spacies..

He only has 2 MUs that are bad. Everything else is atleast even.

I dont think so....

 

[Kink-Link5]

That may be, but everything else is at least better than even for everyone above him.

Except Jigglypuff she gets camped hard by like, 60% of low tier. But then she just has to remember she's Jigglypuff and has options for everything instead of just a bair and can go more aggressive against them.

S0fting Kirby, discuss.

 

[choknater]

ice climbers bodies puff, i still stand by this

i seriously had a dream that i was playing against hungrybox last night LOL

 

[Bing]

That may be, but everything else is at least better than even for everyone above him.
.

Yes but since we're talking about a world without spacies.. that leaves two characters who are above him...

 

[odinNJ]

I can't imagine a world without spacies. My character would be unplayable.

 

[Twinkles]

I can't imagine a world without spacies. My character would be unplayable.

So nothing changed
oh sht look, i can make fun of people's characters too
wut now

 

[odinNJ]

Pfft sure bro. "Making fun of" that's what you were doing, gotcha.

 

[Twinkles]

okay, you got me
i was caught telling the truth
im sorry =(

 

[odinNJ]

40-60 on fox. "unplayable"

 

[Twinkles]

okay, if we're going to do this discussion, we should at least define playable
if we're going with the definition that playable means you can select them on the character select screen, then yes, roy is indeed playable
...
unless u didnt unlock him yet

 

[choknater]

roy is definitely legit

 

[Ripple]

Roy is so legit, he gets hard countered by mewtwo.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy is so legit, he gets hard countered by mewtwo.

who are you buying from?

 

[leffen]

40-60 on fox. "unplayable"

Both spacies have at least 80-20 advantage vs roy

wth are you ****ing talking about LOL

 

[Strong Badam]

it's okay leffen, all new players think low tiers are good because they can do that one thing on FD against spacies. after a while they'll become jaded like us and realize how retardedly imbalanced this game is
IF ONLY IT WEREN'T SO DAMN FUN

 

[ShroudedOne]

At least we don't get completely dominated by MK.

 

[leffen]

this game has like 14 100% viable characters to main (with the ~5 last or so who could arguably use a secondary)

maybe 6 more who are perfectly viable with a secondary

and then there are the rest (that aren't copies, roy and pichu) who are viable as a secondary/counterpick because noone will ever know the matchup.



this is 10 years after release
and the top tiers have more depth to them than most competitive games have all together


and honestly, having more viable characters than melee just causes inconsistency among who wins, which imho is worse for a competitive game

sure, sfiv2012 is cool because there is 43 characters and everyone has at least 5 decent-good high tier matchups

but then you realize that there is no way that you could be top level (armada vs fox good) in every matchup
this makes sure that top players will always flop in pools because of matchups they don't know lol

dont get me ****ing started on marvel LOL



One of my favorite things with melee atm is how there is the top 5 (Marth/Sheik/Puff/Fox/Falco) who all could be argued for #1 and who all have one matchup who can be seen as them losing.
All of these characters are really ****ing hard and unique and all of them have great players

then you have peach (easily the best character for new players) Falcon (pretty simple but very flashy, you always have crowd advantage etc) Ice climbers (very unique - few have exp against them)

I could go on but cba lol

 

[Mew2King]

Roy Fox is 40 60 fox favor not 80 20 imo

 

[odinNJ]

Thank you. It's not just the chain grab, the dtilt the gimping edge guarding. Techhasing, can't be waveshined.

 

[Mew2King]

u can mix up:
down tilt -> F smash which is great always, but super great if they DI away.
with
down tilt -> SH fair -> Down tilt -> SH fair -> down tilt, which is great if they DI in.
as they DI into it all, they gotta guess or react super super fast (generally guess esp since no one has experience vs roy).

 

[odinNJ]

He has. Great Techhasing too

 

[Ripple]

who are you buying from?

...M2K



but still dead serious. roy can't kill M2 if he just stays in the air

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, I've also experienced that. Runaway M2 just takes a dump. You could honestly play to time out a Roy and it would work because he has no answer.

 

[leffen]

We are not talking FD M2K, FD will be 1/5 or 0/3

and things that only work on people with little exp (like dtilt combos that assume that the opponent doesn't know how to hold away)
and what the hell are you gonna do when fox lands on a platform after the downtilt let alone slipoff.

Roy cannot kill a Fox that platform camps >_>
How is Roy gonna gimp fox? Tech Fsmash+Counter... dtilt sends up and with good DI it doesnt hit into anything as an edgeguard (and it can be teched ofc)

Side B spam as roy loses to anyone who can ASDI/CC + hold shield

Fox can do easy TOD combos on roy with drills/nair to utilt (repeat until ~50%) into FH AC bairs and juggles into kill (you can just stand and punish him just before he lands for free)

SDI ***** any combos roy could dream of getting with uair/fair

Roys chaingrab (and grab game overall) is SOOOOOOOO much worse than marths its not even funny
he cannot do **** with good DI

Just because you have almost beat some horribly inexperienced foxes on FD (the only stage that roy is decent on) doesn't mean **** M2K.

The fact that he cannot be waveshine doesn't matter when he can be thunders comboed / tech chased by reaction since he doesn't slide anywhere and to that he has TERRIBLE wakeup game...

roys nair/dtilt spacing gets ***** by run in shield/run in spotdodge/random rolls behind/waiting for it to miss (since he doesn't have marths jab/utilt to use after missed dtilt)

he has worse out of shield game than marth
and marth has a below average one lol.


If roy - fox is 40-60 then marth fox is at least 65-35

 

[choknater]

i just wrote a guide on how to defeat all the b-tier characters lol

 

[Ripple]

We are not talking FD M2K, FD will be 1/5 or 0/3

and things that only work on people with little exp (like dtilt combos that assume that the opponent doesn't know how to hold away)
and what the hell are you gonna do when fox lands on a platform after the downtilt let alone slipoff.

hold away after d-tilt and roy can just F-smash fox off stage. fox doesn't move THAT far away from roy after D-tilt, hold close and roy can juggle.

and if they do land on a platform, roy's best option is just tech chase and go for more chain grabs or throw them off stage/d-throw for a kill attempt.

Roy cannot kill a Fox that platform camps >_>

roy can use platforms quite well actually, any up air past 40% and under 90% that sweet spots WILL lead to a f-smash.

How is Roy gonna gimp fox? Tech Fsmash+Counter... dtilt sends up and with good DI it doesnt hit into anything as an edgeguard (and it can be teched ofc)

flare blade is our best option in addition to counter, both are very hard to tech. also, any d-tilt DIed out, can be followed up with FH flare blade.

Side B spam as roy loses to anyone who can ASDI/CC + hold shield

first hit of side-b is safe on shield when spaced, and fox's CC isn't nearly as strong as other characters'. also, our third hit of side be downward destroys CC.

Fox can do easy TOD combos on roy with drills/nair to utilt (repeat until ~50%) into FH AC bairs and juggles into kill (you can just stand and punish him just before he lands for free)

and roy can kill fox super early if they guess wrong between fair and f-smash.

SDI ***** any combos roy could dream of getting with uair/fair

as soon as I see ANYONE do this consistently, I'll consider it a legitimate point.

Roys chaingrab (and grab game overall) is SOOOOOOOO much worse than marths its not even funny
he cannot do **** with good DI

good DI is DIing out, which then makes roy edgeguard, and his edgeguarding isn't that bad.

Just because you have almost beat some horribly inexperienced foxes on FD (the only stage that roy is decent on) doesn't mean **** M2K.

I almost beat tang at Apex. Roy does [glow]fine[/glow]

The fact that he cannot be waveshine doesn't matter when he can be thunders comboed / tech chased by reaction since he doesn't slide anywhere and to that he has TERRIBLE wakeup game...

If foxes don't thunder's Falcos or even other foxes, I'm not going to consider this a valid point.

roys nair/dtilt spacing gets ***** by run in shield/run in spotdodge/random rolls behind/waiting for it to miss (since he doesn't have marths jab/utilt to use after missed dtilt)

WOW, who the **** runs in on a character and shields? that's not even close to a good tactic on ANYONE anymore.

this isn't ****ing brawl.

he has worse out of shield game than marth
and marth has a below average one lol.

no disagreement here.

If roy - fox is 40-60 then marth fox is at least 65-35

I wish.

 

[Bones0]

WOW, who the **** runs in on a character and shields? that's not even close to a good tactic on ANYONE anymore.

I agreed with pretty much everything else, but run up shield is a downright staple of Mango's game play, and I see Armada abuse it all the time to get his nair OoS to end stocks.

 

[JPOBS]

run up shield is damn good strategy lol.

 

[Ripple]

okay so its a good strategy at mango and armada's level. congrats. and that's only after what? a tech chase or at the very end of a stage

 

[Divinokage]

It's only good if you know you will block an attack to mess up the opponent's spacing, other than that it's pretty bad.

 

[Stevo]

I used to run up shield/roll/dodge as my main strategy when playing Kirby.

This was like 9 years ago.

I'm pretty sure that is still one of Kirby's best strategies.
(I have no idea if this is actually true)

I'm glad Kirby's metagame has evolved so much.

 

[Strong Badam]

run up shield is great
against bad players

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Roy has one of the best empty hops in the game..

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think the threat of being destroyed by SDI is a valid point even if *most* people can't do it consistently, High/top level players probably will, and isn't that the level of play we assume when discussing this things?

Also, what makes Roy's empty hop one of the best in the game?