Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[illinialex24]

I Definitely agree with Frigate, it seems if oli plays smart, RC seems neutral..also how does olimar usually do on Norfair?

I actually don't honestly know. Its not a recommended CP as Jigglypuff against Olimar so I can tell you it isn't **** on him just from there, like Frigate, but I could see it hurting him. However, he also can almost not be edgeguarded here.

 

[Dyyne]

Japes is probably oli's worst stage. Frigate is also a pretty bad level, but it is manageable for him. Aside from that, oli is pretty decent on any stage. I don't know what your marth cps are, but lylat, luigi's (rarely legal anymore) and norfair are all great oli stages. Bf is also one of his better, and fd is great for camping.

What's good about norfair is that his vertical knockback moves (usmash, uair) are very good, so he can very efficiently camp the lower platforms, keeping opponents above him, which is a disadvantageous situation for the opponent.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Except if you avoid him for a bit and then when the stage rotates he is screwed over. Add that with a wall and I really like this stage as Marth against him. Plus your F-smash tipper is such a killer. Just don't do over him. Enough said. Or you will die.

The windmill is great for Olimar and comboing.

The house during the fire part is good for uairs and usmashes.

His Pikmin chain goes through the tree.

Dtilt can stage spike.

Platforms on the Grass segment is also good for him.

During the normal version, platforms can make fsmash camping easy, and the platform don't get in the way of side-b.


A lot of the stuff with platforms that benefit Olimar also benefit Marth, but I don't think it justifies a CP.

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah, PS1 is pretty good for Marth and U-tilt/Nair, which is **** if he can get a tech up there. But I'd say CP Frigate/RC

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Just CP Frigate and win.

What about Delfino? Doesn't the water kill his Pikmin (aside from blue ones)? A spike there while the platform is leaving from the area you're on could easily kill. Or even just getting him into the water while the transporter is leaving. And it's a good Marth stage.

Frigate's probably better, but Delfino could work as well.

 

[ZHMT]

Think twice about CP'ing Frigate against Olimar....

It has a low ceiling which Olimar is a beast at getting vertical kills. ALSO Olimar gets the most Purple Pikmin on this stage then any other legal stage in the game (a few others are tied).

I know gimping seems easy on the stage, but its still pretty hard to do.

I love going to Japes (usually a horrible Marth stage but w/e) and fighting him off from the center of the stage. If you don't like japes you can go PS1 as well.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I was thinking of Japes also, the river kills Pikmin giving him like, a small chance at survival when you knock him in. Gimp city.

 

[Steel]

japes is garbage for marth

dont pick it

 

[Remzi]

Think twice about CP'ing Frigate against Olimar....

It has a low ceiling which Olimar is a beast at getting vertical kills. ALSO Olimar gets the most Purple Pikmin on this stage then any other legal stage in the game (a few others are tied).

I know gimping seems easy on the stage, but its still pretty hard to do.

I love going to Japes (usually a horrible Marth stage but w/e) and fighting him off from the center of the stage. If you don't like japes you can go PS1 as well.

Ok I probably sound like a huge nub right now, but WTF? Stage affects likeliness of pikmin color? Since when?

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

SOLID, Olimar has many strengths on Delphino that would prevent it from being a counterpick.

It is very easy to bthrow camp on many of the levels.

It is much easier for him to spike you in the water than it is for you to spike him.

He is more likely to benefit from the occasional "landing on the next segment after being gimped" than Marth is.

Platforms don't get in the way of sideb spam.

He can pikmincide you when the stage goes up and live.


It's not too bad for Marth, just not good enough to use a CP.


EDIT: Yes Bengalz, it does. [I think it was in the Smashdojo.]

 

[ZHMT]

Ok I probably sound like a huge nub right now, but WTF? Stage affects likeliness of pikmin color? Since when?

If Olimar is standing in a water like surface, like in Pokemon Stadium, its like a 40% chance he will get a blue pikmin.

If hes on the treadmill on PS2, he will get more yellows.

The chance of getting a purple pikmin is 10% on most stages. On Frigate its 20%.

Heres the chart, it may help with the discussion. (The less blues and purples he gets, the better it is for us.)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=212786

 

[BBoyindo]

I never knew that lol. That does make going FO a lot less likely, even though it's still a good stage if you know it well.

 

[ZHMT]

The last Olimar I played was Pyronic Star, and he counterpicked Frigate AGAINST me.

 

[illinialex24]

That is very weird but very good information. As a Jigglypuff, I don't want him to have purples....

 

[takeurlife2]

against oli i try to avoid platformed stages like BF...

if you ever get stuck on a platform he just spams upsmash... his uair is also too good.

 

[asob4]

a smart oli will take you to frigate, for the +purples

any other stage is fine, doesn't matter
you still got advantage D:

if luigi's is legal ban it

 

[EtherealKing]

I would say Ban frigate, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Norfair. (I've given some of my best performances there.)

I would take them to somewhere like FD or Delfino. (Water and Risk of Ghost pikmin) and Japes...maybe....

 

[BacklashMarth]

I would say Ban frigate, Luigi's Mansion, and maybe Norfair. (I've given some of my best performances there.)

I would take them to somewhere like FD or Delfino. (Water and Risk of Ghost pikmin) and Japes...maybe....

um, blue pikmin bthrow ftl?

 

[asob4]

uhmm constant threat of death at 0 ftl???

japes is just horrible for us

 

[BacklashMarth]

uhmm constant threat of death at 0 ftl???

japes is just horrible for us

touche monsieur

 

[Prince Of Fire]

Awesome thread. Extremely useful.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

I think with Olimar, we probably won't find a counterpick that only helps us. It looks like with Olimar we're looking at a set of dynamic imbalances.

- Rainbow Cruise:

First part -- Pretty good for Marth

Second part -- Very good for Marth

Third part -- Very good for Olimar


-Jungle Japes:

Very bad for Marth, but terrible for Olimar


- Frigate Orpheon:

Olimar has a lot of trouble recovering from the right side, but he gets a large boost in Purple Pikmin.

 

[asob4]

i think it shouldn't matter where you take him
they both pretty much have the same stage dis/advantages

just ban weegees

 

[ZHMT]

Rainbow Cruise is like the best actual CP for Olimar imo.

 

[asob4]

nahhh
only bad part is the pendulum
every other part is good and can lead to very early kills

 

[Remzi]

nahhh
only bad part is the pendulum
every other part is good and can lead to very early kills

The entire "second phase" works heavily in Marth's favor.

 

[ZHMT]

Part 1 can be a dtilt wall trap, and the stage is small so Marth can just constantly attack Olimar. If Olimar decides to toss Pikmin, he may not be able to get them in time for phase 2.

Part 2, I pretty much always gimp Olimar here in a game. All you really gotta do is keep him from climbing up or keep him off the flying carpets and he will lose a stock. Its really not that hard. Yes the ceiling gets low here, but Marth outranges Olimars usmash with any of his moves.

I say the third part is kinda bad for us cause of the low ceiling and the chance of pikmincide I guess. But Marth cant be camped really on it because of all the obstacles in the way. The low ceiling is bad for Olimar here too due to his low weight.

 

[asob4]

part 2 is the only part that is really good for you

we have just as much range as you if not more
we can pivot grab half the boat, so be afraid.... be very afraid

and yeah part 3 is part 3

so i'd say it's about even for both chars

EDIT:

Part 1 can be a dtilt wall trap, and the stage is small so Marth can just constantly attack Olimar. If Olimar decides to toss Pikmin, he may not be able to get them in time for phase 2

lol wut?
wall is good for us too, fsmash trap or jab trap
we can whistle our pikmin back... have you ever played an olimar before?
we have tons of range

 

[EtherealKing]

um, blue pikmin bthrow ftl?

I said maybe; I mean...You guys have a bigger advantage then we do...if we fall in the water all our Pikmin but the blue ones die, and if we find our self's in the water most of our Pikmin will be dead, then you just Dair us or something when were on our way up.
AND It has a high ceiling so its going to be a bit harder to kill with U-Smash.

So really were going to use B-throw to kill, Annndd that's more or less what were going to use to kill anywhere...and their isn't much you can do about that, other then not getting grabbed....Japes is a small stage, so I think you should be able to keep the pressure on them and more or less dominate most of the match.

But you should keep in mind I've NEVER played any really good marth's and I'm not a very good Olimar...I'm just saying how I see it and what I think might work based on my knowledge of Olimar.

 

[ZHMT]

@asob4,

Ive played AndyG, Pyronic Star, and KBM lol.

What I meant about phaze 1 is, if you are throwing pikmin, you gotta watch out for them falling off the boat, even if it doesnt happen often. Olimar with a low Pikmin count in phaze 2 is bad news obviously.

Olimar outranges Marth, but Marth only needs to hit Olimar once on this stage and put him in immediate danger.

Marth can Dolphin slash out of any traps on the wall from Olimar iirc, Olimar cant escape a dtilt lock until higher %.

Phaze 3 is even, Phaze 2 is in Marths favor, and Phaze 1 is even.

This means its a decent CP for Marth lol.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Another thing I would like to add to Rainbow Cruise, is I would only recommend it if you play there often. Since many people play against Olimar there, the Olimar main will have a lot more experience than you there. So if you feel uncomfortable there, I would definitely discourage playing on it.

 

[BBoyindo]

Wow this thread keeps dieing, let's finish it this time, because it's going really slow with all those breaks.

 

[Remzi]

ight im gonna get on this.

update in a few minutes.

*EDIT: Falco now, this should be relatively straightforward

Ban Japes every time, if for some reason you don't want to, FD is your next best option.

CP BF, Delfino, or Castle Siege

 

[Freezewish]

Lylat is a great counterpick since Falco probably wont risk trying to sweetspot the tilting ledge with phantasm, meaning you can punish their recovery once they land onstage. The tilting stage can also mess up their SHL and SHDL sometimes. Best CP for falco imo.

Always ban Japes like Bengals said. Falco is too stupid there.

 

[Remzi]

Lylat is great against Falco, but I just can't bring myself to pick it against anyone. I really can't stand it.

 

[BacklashMarth]

I just go smashville against him cuz hes got less room to run, phantasm, and lazer camp. If hes in the middle of the stage he wont phantasm and that is ideal because falco shouldnt want to be near the edge.

 

[Remzi]

I wouldn't counter SV, it has it's ups and downs for both characters. It isn't bad but you can do better.

Technically, Lylat is probably the best but I just really don't like it. BF has always worked for me.

Allow me to elaborate on why Castle Siege is a great choice here.

Phase 1: Awesome for Marth, platforms are positioned exceptionally well. Pretty much all of your platform abusing options are viable here. If you control the left side of the stage, Falco can't touch you. As long as you don't concede that side of the stage for long, you should be able to successfully limit his options and take care of business.

Phase 2: The abundance of high platforms and projectile interferences make this a nightmare for a campy Falco. Just use the obstacles to your advantage and try to keep him cornered. Expect a lot of phantasm, they will use it to escape the edges of the walkoff.

Phase 3: Basically a platformless Lylat. The ledges are worse for him then they are for you. The slanting slope also makes it tougher for him to camp you out with lasers. This is basically good for every reason that makes lylat good, except that there are no platforms here.

CP Castle Siege

 

[BacklashMarth]

Finally, a good reason to go to a fire emblem stage that isnt "Rekka no Ken".

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

I donno. When I know what character I'm playing against with Marth, I automatically think of their recovery. The platforms are _horrible_ for the space animals, in my opinion. Falco can get really screwed with his Phantasm on lylat and same with his recovery. It's also small, hard to laser camp on, and the platforms give you a large advantage as I don't see Falco being good when above people.

 

[Remzi]

Sheik, lets go.