Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Remzi]

I think it's important that we talk about what stages to ban and counterpick in every matchup. We'll go through one character at a time and hopefully everyone will contribute. We'll move on once we reach a general consensus for the character being discussed.

We are currently discussing:

Pokemon Trainer


Summaries:

Bowser:-------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Captain Falcon: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Diddy Kong:-------------------------------

Counterpicks: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise

Bans: Final Destination, Smashville

Donkey Kong: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Halberd

Bans: Brinstar, Japes

Falco: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Lylat, BF, Castle Siege

Bans: Japes, FD

Fox: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Lylat

Bans: Halberd, FD

Game & Watch: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF

Bans: Frigate, Lylat, Norfair

Ganondorf: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Ice Climbers: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Frigate, BF

Bans: FD, SV

Ike: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Japes, Rainbow Cruise, SV

Bans: Brinstar, Luigis

Jigglypuff: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

King Dedede: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Lylat

Bans: FD, Smasvhille, Castle Siege (?)

Kirby:-------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Lylat, Castle Siege (?)

Bans: FD, RC (?)

Link: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, RC, Lylat

Bans: Norfair, Japes, SV, FD

Lucario: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Lylat

Bans: FD, Frigate

Lucas: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Luigi: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, SV

Bans: Halberd, FD

Mario: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Marth: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Wherever you're comfortable?

Bans: Wherever you're not comfortable?

Metaknight:-------------------------------

Counterpicks: Final Destination, Smashville

Bans: Frigate, Luigi's Mansion, Battlefield, Halberd, Rainbow Cruise

Ness: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Olimar: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, BF

Bans: Luigi's Mansion, Frigate

Peach: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Halberd

Bans: Japes

Pikachu: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Lylat, Castle Siege

Bans: SV, FD

Pit: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, SV, YI

Bans: FD, Japes

Pokemon Trainer: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

ROB: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Battlefield, Smashville, Brinstar Norfair(?)

Bans: FD, RC, frigate

Samus: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Sheik: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Smashville, or wherever you are comfortable

Bans: YI

Snake: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Battlefield, Delfino Plaza, Rainbow Cruise
Bans: Final Destination, Smashville, Lylat (?)

Sonic: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Brinstar, BF

Bans: FD

Toon Link: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Castle Siege, YI (?)

Bans: FD, Japes, RC

Wario: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, SV

Bans: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Japes, Halberd

Wolf: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: PS1, Lylat

Bans: Yoshi's Island

Yoshi: -------------------------------

Counterpicks:

Bans:

Zelda: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: BF, Lylat, YI (?)

Bans: Halberd, Luigis

Zero Suit Samus: -------------------------------

Counterpicks: Frigate, BF, SV

Bans: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, FD



Let us know what you think we should be counterpicking and what stages we should be banning.

 

[Hype]

I think you should start with the better characters and not go alphabetical. I have no idea about bowser though.

from the CPing made easy thread for Bowser.

Best: Norfair, Battlefield, Castle Siege
Worst: Jungle Japes, Brinstar

 

[Shaya]

Bowser:
Lylat/Battlefield

Ban FD

Everyone else:
Battlefield

Ban FD unless their name is Meta, G&W or Olimar. Then ban Rainbow Ride, RR and Corneria.

/thread

 

[Steel]

shaya have my marth babies

 

[ChaosKnight]

eww you guys actually always go to BF no matter what character EWWWWWWWWWW

dont ever talk to me again

 

[feardragon64]

Bowser:
Lylat/Battlefield

Ban FD

Everyone else:
Battlefield

Ban FD unless their name is Meta, G&W or Olimar. Then ban Rainbow Ride, RR and Corneria.

/thread

Delfino is also acceptable.
Personally I also like pks1

 

[Steel]

eww you guys actually always go to BF no matter what character EWWWWWWWWWW

dont ever talk to me again

no, i go to stages I feel I do best on. Battlefield is one of them, but I also like PS1/2, Orpheon, etc .. any place with a few platforms to mess around on (lylat is an exception).

A discussion like this can really come down to personal preference (again, i don't like playing on lylat when I know it's a relatively good stage for Marth, so I probably wouldn't go there for spacies). Not only does Marth do relatively well on a plethora of stages, but the smash community in general knows what stages certain characters do bad and do well on, if you don't know you can simply check out their character board and i'm sure it's there somewhere.

 

[Xisin]

i almost want to disagree with battlefield, Have always hated going there with bowser since his side-b kills off the top platfrom so early, maybe another stage with platfroms like lylat? iono

 

[Doomblaze]

Delfino is fun since it has to occasional walk off edge and wall to **** bowser with, along with platforms

Whats not to love?

i have zero match exp against bowser, so you probably shdnt listen to me too closely...

who here plays against bowsers regularily? lol

 

[Freezewish]

I think you should start with the better characters and not go alphabetical. I have no idea about bowser though.

I agree. This method will allow us to focus on more imprtant matchups (metaknight,snake,
d3) instead of almost meaningless ones first(falcon, ganon,lucas)

I suggest we go in order of the Official SBR tier list as it would alllow us to focus on the bigger threats and most important matchups first.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Pierce7d]

no, i go to stages I feel I do best on. Battlefield is one of them, but I also like PS1/2, Orpheon, etc .. any place with a few platforms to mess around on (lylat is an exception).

A discussion like this can really come down to personal preference (again, i don't like playing on lylat when I know it's a relatively good stage for Marth, so I probably wouldn't go there for spacies). Not only does Marth do relatively well on a plethora of stages, but the smash community in general knows what stages certain characters do bad and do well on, if you don't know you can simply check out their character board and i'm sure it's there somewhere.

. . . Marth sucks a lot on Frigate. During one of the two stages (the first stage) Marth cannot recover against any smart opponent when he's hit off the right side of the stage.

Also, SBR tier list is not amazing anymore

 

[Steel]

I put that as an example for against spacies or whoever else sucks on that edge of the stage, i should have clarified. But yeah it can screw marth over as well.

 

[∫unk]

Not when I'm teaming with you ^^

I'm save king.

 

[Remzi]

the smash community in general knows what stages certain characters do bad and do well on, if you don't know you can simply check out their character board and i'm sure it's there somewhere.

Or we could just compile it here for easier reference?


Anyways, I usually pick BF against Bowser. I like to ban SV against him. Easiest place for him to bowsercide you.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Also, SBR tier list is not amazing anymore

It was never amazing to begin with.

 

[-Red-]

It's kinda pointless really, like everyone else said we should start from Metaknight on down.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

It's kinda pointless really, like everyone else said we should start from Metaknight on down.

If everyone else said it, why did you have to?

 

[-Red-]

If everyone else said it, why did you have to?

To further enforce the idea that it is what everyone wants, if its done the way the majority wants it then more people will contribute.

Duh?
Why ask such a dumb question?

 

[Hype]

Also, SBR tier list is not amazing anymore

Well, there will be a new one jan 5th.

 

[Remzi]

By popular demand, we'll start with the better characters. Now discussing Meta.

 

[VietGeek]

A MK would probably ban FD from you, and perhaps Battlefield.

You should ban Rainbow Cruise or Norfair.

As for counterpicks, MK more or less excels on about every legal stage.

Smashville or Delfino could prove to be alright. Delfino overall is pretty even between the both of you. Smashville as well.

Perhaps Corneria if you have trouble killing? Although we all know MK benefits from this stage as well.

So really it's best to choose a stage where you can minimize any superficial advantages he gets, which is typically a neutral or borderline CP anyway.

 

[Hype]

Ban: Rainbow cruise, Luigi's mansion.
CP: FD,...

On that note we should get at least 2 stages to CP for every character since they will likely ban one.

 

[cman]

Why would a meta ban FD? Marth doesn't get much of special advantage there. The somewhat large blast zones give meta more room to gimp Marth's mediocre recovery, and would allow him to live longer. Plus there is always the small chance of the marth screwing up on the ledges and gimping himself.

Am I missing something?

 

[Hype]

Why would a meta ban FD? Marth doesn't get much of special advantage there. The somewhat large blast zones give meta more room to gimp Marth's mediocre recovery, and would allow him to live longer. Plus there is always the small chance of the marth screwing up on the ledges and gimping himself.

Am I missing something?

MK does better with platforms than marth, and here marth can take full advantage of his grab release combos.

 

[Remzi]

The stages you really want to avoid IMO are Luigis, RC, and Norfair.

As for cping: I almost always go SV, maybe delfino every once in a while.

 

[OmegaXF]

Against MK get rid of boards that allow you to recover through them. Halberd and Delfino are perfect examples as MK can easily abuse these stages with a wide multitude of attacks. Ledges are your friend against MK and are also the enemy if you play a pisspoor game. BF and Lylat are great examples. Other than that its personal prefrence....↓4SEX

 

[-Red-]

For banning I am probably most scared of Rainbow Cruise then anything, so I'd most likely ban it, if not it then Luigi's.

I also agree with Omega that stages like Delfino and Halberd are stages you DO NOT want to go to, because of how well Metaknight can **** with you through the bottom.

As for stages I WANT to play on, honestly Metaknight does about even on most the stages, I think the main thing you are looking for is your grab release kills and a lot of platforms for a safe DS. Most of the neutrals fit under these. Final gives you grab release kills and you won't have to worry about platforms. Battlefield gives you a really safer DS with top platform, as well as Pokemon and Yoshi's to a lesser extent. I personally LOVE Lylat Cruise but I know alot of people hate it so meh.
I wouldn't ban it but Smash Ville isn't a stage I would go to.

If you have a valid reason why you like a stage, it's mostly just personal preferance with Marth.

So BAN- Rainbow Cruise or Mansion.
CP( Not really a COUNTER cuz its Metaknight =/) Battlefield/PS1/FD


Most neutrals are pretty sweet for Marth, your banning stages is much more useful then your option to counterpick.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Mk taking advantages from platforms is way too dangerous.

Ban RC, Battlefield(Good bye old friend), and Luigis.

Stick with FD

 

[Doomblaze]

Meta's gonna ban FD most of the time though, so whats another good stage to choose?

smashvilles alright cause you can set up grab release to tippered fsmash on the floating platform... but meta still had an advantage there.

Battlefield is ugly when meta does better than you on the platforms...

PS1's alright but the edges are reallly glitchy, not so much a problem with marth buts its happened to me before....

 

[Hype]

smashvilles alright cause you can set up grab release to tippered fsmash on the floating platform... but meta still had an advantage there.

If your talking about getting a grab while on the platfrom while it is moving forward, that is so situational that it's not even worth considering for what makes this stage good for marth.

 

[Megavitamins]

quick question: does anybody have a video of the 15% death upthrow MK has on the ship?

 

[Remzi]

SV is clearly the best imo.

Of the neutrals, it has the closest blast zones from the sides as well as the lowest ceiling. Since his recovery is amazing AND he can gimp us quite easily, stages with close blast zones are ideal since it kind of levels the playing field.

Also, no major platform interference so he can't utilize them, nor can they can in the way of your grab releases too often.

 

[**Havok**]

Lol battlefield as a CP?

No way. The stage isn't terrible for Marth vs mk but the platforms are a nuisance. Mk just has Very good mobility. There are better options.

Luigi's Mansion isn't that bad. You have a pillars to refresh move sets. Just destroy the house if they're gonna be doing that Tornado gheyness.


I agree with Bengalz, smashville is great because its easy to recover on. You even have a platfrom just in case. If you grab on the platform while its moving in the direction you're going to let go of MK, FSMASH!

Worst?

Unfortunately there are a couple. Frigate is pretty bad since on one of the sides it doesn't have an edge and a simple dsmash can knock you off...

Rainbow is also pretty bad since you can't move the way MK can. So gimps gallore here with Up-B lag when trying to get back. Ew.

Pokemon stadium 1 is pretty ghey since there are so many things to prevent your spacing on MK, interrupts your grab releases.

 

[ChaosKnight]

i cp Castle siege against Mks but its a long *** fight but i win -.-

 

[Darxmarth23]

Sicky now plx

kthxbai

 

[Xisin]

Luigi's Mansion isn't that bad. You have a pillars to refresh move sets. Just destroy the house if they're gonna be doing that Tornado gheyness.

Just remember the mk can do the exact same thing with faster attacks (,meaning attacking the pillars while keeping his **** tornado fresh so he can spam it on you some more, if you get hit and you miss one wall tech you're pretty much screwed if the mk follows it up. I don't see the perk in having to destroy the house before the match up can begin to even take off.

Just seems like the match up on the mansion for me becomes a very big uphill battle... You only have one freaking ban and he has so many stages he can use against you. I ban the mansion or rainbow cruise for mks usually mostly Rainbow cruise and ALWAYS end up in the mansion on game 3.

the mansion also bones grab release hard core. there nothing good about this stage for marth vs mk. if someone can offer me advice then by all means but this is just a horrible, terrible stage to play mk on without a doubt.

as far as counterpicking is concerned go with Smashville, Final D or picto chat. last one being sorta iffy but its a nice stage for some people.

Edit - i said ban Fd when i meant to say ban the mansion :/

 

[clowsui]

LOL Xisin's just salty that he lost to Kel REALLY badly on LM.

J/k Xisin I <3 you

On topic: Mansion is dumb. Just ban Mansion and hope he doesn't go RC, if he does you're just going to have to play board the platforms extreme and campy.

IMO your best best is SV, don't go BF (plats) or LC (edge gimps). If you can get FD.

 

[Xisin]

yes kel did take me out like last weeks trash on LM, but yeah totally the stage at work there >.>. it why he went there though and gg at that.

 

[**Havok**]

Just remember the mk can do the exact same thing with faster attacks (,meaning attacking the pillars while keeping his **** tornado fresh so he can spam it on you some more, if you get hit and you miss one wall tech you're pretty much screwed if the mk follows it up. I don't see the perk in having to destroy the house before the match up can begin to even take off.

the mansion also bones grab release hard core. there nothing good about this stage for marth vs mk. if someone can offer me advice then by all means but this is just a horrible, terrible stage to play mk on without a doubt.
/

that's true, well one nifty thing that you can do on the stage, DB ending with UP on the top of the house, early kill! Up-B up there too.

I don't know, I just feel like there are even worst stages for marth than luigi's.

 

[e__]

How to get out of the Luigi Mansion's Tornado Trap:

Roll/Tech to the MIDDLE of the house.