Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Shaya]

Lylat?
Hell no.
Get on a ledge against squirtle or charizard on lylat. You arent getting back on alive. ESPECIALLY if you are over 100%. Marth doesnt sweetspot the ledge on lylat properly, zard can easily use his uber disjointed dair to lol you if you have to come from below. Squirtle can use his nair or dair.

Both Final Destination and Smashville are better against PT than BF.
BF means you are giving up your ability to pretty much negate PTs trump card (which btw, honestly has the best match up with Marth out of all three, EVEN if he does get grab release cgd).

Frigate? well I personally despise the stage... I dont see why PT would hate it though...

You will be wanting the starter stage to be SV. You will be wanting to CP SV, FD or YI.

Yoshis Island/SV give us options of getting back on stage without Squirtle ****** us (Ghost + Moving platform).
Seriously, SQUIRTLE WILL KILL YOU if you are over 100%, on a ledge and have had to use dolphin slash. And if they didnt kill you, the squirtle doesnt know whats up.

 

[Toby.]

Lylat?
Hell no.
Get on a ledge against squirtle or charizard on lylat. You arent getting back on alive. ESPECIALLY if you are over 100%. Marth doesnt sweetspot the ledge on lylat properly, zard can easily use his uber disjointed dair to lol you if you have to come from below. Squirtle can use his nair or dair.

Both Final Destination and Smashville are better against PT than BF.
BF means you are giving up your ability to pretty much negate PTs trump card (which btw, honestly has the best match up with Marth out of all three, EVEN if he does get grab release cgd).

Frigate? well I personally despise the stage... I dont see why PT would hate it though...

You will be wanting the starter stage to be SV. You will be wanting to CP SV, FD or YI.

Yoshis Island/SV give us options of getting back on stage without Squirtle ****** us (Ghost + Moving platform).
Seriously, SQUIRTLE WILL KILL YOU if you are over 100%, on a ledge and have had to use dolphin slash. And if they didnt kill you, the squirtle doesnt know whats up.

My ears are burning

To expand on what shaya said about Frigate (ie nothing ), the reason PT doesn't totally despise frigate in this matchup is because we're not going to be using ivysaur at all anyway. Charizard and squirtle have their share of lols setups on the edgeless side as well. Not a good stage for us overall, but in this matchup you could be taking us to more difficult places.

 

[Pierce7d]

I didn't read this thread, but referring back to the mini-argument on page 31, one of Marth's best stages is Lylat. True facts. Also, if you die to Squirtle because you got pinned on an edge, shame on you. Plank until fatigue please.

 

[Toby.]

I'm not sure whether you understand how squirtle kills in that situation :/

Shaya never said it would be from a single hit. Planking until fatigue is an extremely gay effective strategy, but once marth is at the point where he is using DS, he is already too damaged for the fatigue to prevent squirtle from keeping you on the ledge.

Or are you saying that Marth should never have to recover with dolphin slash if you start planking from 0%?

 

[Raziek]

Haven't checked this in awhile, but I noticed something I disagreed with on the CP's for Link.

RC should be a potential ban, it's actually one of Link's better stages, very close to Norfair in terms of effectiveness. The reason for this being, Link gets to play on the defensive the whole time. Unlike non-moving stages, you don't have the option of staying in his face as much as you'd like to, so you have to settle for pressure here and there while it's safe for YOU. Meanwhile, he's camping you with his Boomerang, which actually has dangerous gimping potential here, especially around the pendulum phase.

Edit: I would also suggest having Lylat as a potential counterpick AGAINST Game and Watch. Assuming he isn't using the black color (Blending is cheap), I've found playing against him, that he has a tendency to miss the ledge if he has to recover from below, because the grab window isn't very forgiving, and if it's tilting up, his recovery tends to push him under the stage.

One further minor point: Toon Link on Yoshi's Island. I'd advise against it for a few reasons.

1) The vertical walls means he can walljump to recover. Not amazing, but it might lead to you eating a wall-jumped bair to the face.

2) He can also bomb-jump by throwing one at the wall while he's next to it at high percents.

3) If you're careless, it's not unheard of to eat a spike while he's over one of the side ledges. Since it slopes down, if your DI isn't perfect, you could die, or at the very least, set yourself up for a tech-chased F or D-smash. The slope also means he can go for it while he has no risk of SD, and in the case of the tilting platform, he can also use the slide to retreat some if he misses.

While the platform DOES provide some cover from bombs, it's fairly likely that he'll stick more to Boomerang and Arrows here.

Going to check this vid over, will add more comments momentarily. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mviEhaeaOyg)

Comments:

See 1:38 for what I meant about the spike.

And upon further looking at it, the platform didn't even provide him much cover from the bombs. It's not a horrible stage to go to, but there's probably better counter-picks.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Link boards said RC was good for them I just asked, ima member on their chat (and all the links go to teh chat)


Frigte is nightmare for PT ivy and squirtle will just get ultra ****ed and i can't see zard doing a whole lot better. then again frigate is my personal CP



and i don't see planking being as effective on a stage that tilts up and down

 

[Kith]

Link boards said RC was good for them I just asked, ima member on their chat (and all the links go to teh chat)


Frigte is nightmare for PT ivy and squirtle will just get ultra ****ed and i can't see zard doing a whole lot better. then again frigate is my personal CP



and i don't see planking being as effective on a stage that tilts up and down

I'm not sure why people assume Frigate is a nightmare for PT. I imagine it's because of Ivysaur, but trust me, we're not going to be using Ivysaur against Marth. Also, BF is usually where I want to start off against Marths. It helps out Squirtle's mobility, and allows him to avoid Marth's grab release shenanigans.

 

[Blacknight99923]

and its marths best stage

against most characters

 

[Kith]

It's one of Marths best stages, but not against Squirtle

 

[Raziek]

I would have to agree. As much as Marth loves Battlefield, fighting Squirtle in cramped spaces is a problem. To be honest, in this match-up I'd probably go to SV or FD. Lots of room to space adequately and retreat from Squirtle when he gets into the comfort zone.

 

[Player-3]

squirtle does really well agaisnt marth on BF, it's like wario except worse

trust me

i played reflex in tournament before i actually tried to learn the matchup and cp stages and knew about GR shenanigans... and i got destroyed first game on bf and cped him back, played infinite times smarted and took him to last stock, but it's a really ****ty stage agaisnt squirtle

FD >>>>>>>>>>>> bf in the matchup

D:

 

[Kith]

I would have to agree. As much as Marth loves Battlefield, fighting Squirtle in cramped spaces is a problem. To be honest, in this match-up I'd probably go to SV or FD. Lots of room to space adequately and retreat from Squirtle when he gets into the comfort zone.

squirtle does really well agaisnt marth on BF, it's like wario except worse

trust me

i played reflex in tournament before i actually tried to learn the matchup and cp stages and knew about GR shenanigans... and i got destroyed first game on bf and cped him back, played infinite times smarted and took him to last stock, but it's a really ****ty stage agaisnt squirtle

FD >>>>>>>>>>>> bf in the matchup

D:

Marth out-spaces all of the Pokemon, so if I were you, I would prefer having a stage without many platforms. Play the spacing game, and grab Squirtle when he messes up. Stages with platforms just give Squirtle a chance to not land in front of your grab.

 

[Player-3]

yeah i wasn't thinking so i was like bf ***** for marth bf!121@1

 

[Remzi]

Ok, FD and SV are probably the best stages to take a PT. But they usually strike and/or ban those stages. What other options do we have?

Also, what about bans?

 

[Shaya]

they like rainbow cruise :s

The pokemon do not really have any thing going for them in terms of stage dominance when, really, Marth wins all three match ups on all stages.

Stages like Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Lylat may cause severe pain due to lack of experience.

 

[Player-3]

brinstar may cause pain due to rock smash


:v

 

[Toby.]

No not really. Marth typically controls that stage better than Charizard, partially thanks to the increase of his tipper duration by like 10 minutes on the sides.

 

[Kith]

I CP Marths to Brinstar for the same reason I CP battlefield. Platforms let you maximize Squirtle's mobility and hinder Marth's grab release stuff. Though I do agree with Toby that Marth controls the stage better than Charizard, also due to the fact that Charizard likes having a lot of open space.

 

[Toby.]

I used to CP brinstar against Shaya. The first time I took him there I two (or three?) stocked him and he banned the hell out of it at many tournaments after that. Then he learned the **** that marth brings to brinstar...and I wept.

 

[Shaya]

I think I banned it at like one tournament after that.
I used dedede the 2nd time.
And then from there on... fufufufufufufufufufufufu

 

[Toby.]

Oh that's right, the charming penguin. And we had that AMAZING match on brinstar where squirtle lived until like 200% because you kept throwing me. Fun times.

 

[Raziek]

Needs more U-throw, for those, "JUST DIE ALREADY!" moments.

 

[T-block]

marth is good on brinstar now?

lol i haven't played this matchup in forever. if i were stuck playing the charizard vs marth matchup, FD would be my stage choice. if i were stuck playing squirtle, i would ban FD and go BF.

if you don't have problems with charizard (which you shouldn't), i think FD is the best choice. idk how well marth does on yoshi's island, but that seems like an all right choice too.

 

[Shaya]

Brinstar would be like... Marths counterpick against everyone if it wasnt for meta knight

 

[zer0.]

Brinstar would be like... Marths counterpick against everyone if it wasnt for meta knight

would you mind to elaborate this?

 

[Toby.]

1. Tipper fsmash the side parts.
2. Enjoy your 30 seconds of constant tipper goodness.

 

[Shaya]

if you camp the bubbles, any more that hits your shield there which also gets extra hitlag from the bubbles will be easily dolphin slashed through (so its good if you crouch). Up smash is also pretty good LOL. Extending dem hitboxes.

Stuff like aerial on hittable parts extended the duration for them is quite good too.

Generally it makes edge guarding a tad easier for all the above mentioned reasons. Also because there are platforms directly above ledges, you are able to dolphin slash recoveries outwards facing as well (characters with horizontal recoveries get ***** son )

 

[Blacknight99923]

it should probably be noted that most people (at least as far as i can tell) don't main MK and probably don't know how to use brinstar as effectivly as an MK main, also considering your not using MK they are probably less likely to switch.

however this strategy isn't fool proof, its generally safer to take them to more marth oriented stages like BF possibly, lylat, or my personal frigate (which isn't actually a great marth stage but thats currently irelavent

 

[Anaky]

Marth vs Link you should also ban Brinstar, its Links best stage, after Norfair.

I dont have any idea on Pokemon Trainer.