Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Remzi]

Lou
Carr
Eeh
Oh

Ban- FD
CP- BF

lol idk this one at all

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario eh?
Yeah, I'd say BF is your best neutral vs. lucario, strike FD, and definitely Ban Yoshi's Island and Jungle Japes (or strike Yoshi's if it's a neutral in your area, it's prolly worst than FD). Frigate is also one you don't want to fight lucario on, but it isn't really banworthy, but it's usually a stage that lucario will pick against almost everyone if his other stage picks aren't so great in a certain matchup.

 

[Fizzle]

Always ban Japes. Lucario can play campy as **** on that stage. Be prepared to play on Frigate or FD as their CP.

CP Battlefield. If you're comfortable on Lylat then take him there -- since most Lucarios will ban BF anyway. The tilting screws up aurasphere and the platforms work to Marth's advantage.

definitely Ban Yoshi's Island

No. Why does everyone think this is a good Lucario stage? Marth's platform pressure can dominate Lucario here. Sure, he can wall cling, but that's still easy to punish. FD is far worse for a neutral.

 

[phi1ny3]

I was thinking more about yoshi's platform isn't actually all that great for that kind of platform pressure, which is why MK's hate playing lucarios there (ask M2K/ksizzle). Also, those blast zones are reeeeaaaallllllyyyy far out. I'm aware of its weaknesses (shy guys can help stop AS stuff, not so great platform play on lucario's part) but it's still quite a good stage for him.
Edit: Nevermind, I can see some stuff wrong about it, but it's still decent for a lucario pick.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Idk **** about cps but I'll say ban japes obv.

I feel safe on BF against almost any char so eh.....

 

[Tophes]

Why would Frigate not be a considerable option? From my experience it's easier to kill Lucario on the initial stage of Frigate since it would force Lucario to try and get on the stage if he's being gimped from the right. If he does get on, just push him back and the situation is reset again.

 

[Player-3]

Why would Frigate not be a considerable option? From my experience it's easier to kill Lucario on the initial stage of Frigate since it would force Lucario to try and get on the stage if he's being gimped from the right. If he does get on, just push him back and the situation is reset again.

O_o


frigate is lucarios ***** man

 

[Sake-Hato]

To me i think marth should cp a stage like lylat beacuse lucarios recovery ussualy gose for the edge so if you edgehog early he will not go for the edge but to the stage witch will leave him open for a Quick Nair or something like that,frigate has a side were you cant edgehog witch means it will be less of a chance of free damage IMO

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You should be ablt to stick to neutrals as long as they don't allow his recovery tricks so lylat and smashvilles should be good stages.

 

[phi1ny3]

I would talk a bit about how good lucarios should use every tool they have vs. edgehogging ranging from using those lovely lingering aerials, AS, and dair stall, but that stuff is only mixup stuff.
I'd say BF and Lylat is pretty good, smashville is okay too, but that platform is surprisingly helpful at times for recovering.
Whoever said Frigate doesn't know about it's limited platforms, large blastzones (although not as big as FD's overall), and the fact that on both LEFT AND RIGHT of the first stage, lucario can wallcling on both sides (and thus makes the right side much more gimp worthy for lucario than the other way around), and many of the stages it goes through don't really affect lucario's game as opposed to the opponents.

 

[Remzi]

Ok, done with Lucario. Moving on to someone else, idk yet.

*EDIT: Kirby

 

[feardragon64]

CP battlefield. Don't know what to ban, even though I probably should since my Kirby is practically my real main since he's better than my Marth.

But ya Battlefield CP. Good Kirby's will generally want to camp you out. Platforms make for multiple approach options. Small stage means some easier kills against the puffball, and Kirby can't abuse his recovery as much since it's a small stage in the first place. There are some other reasons but I dunno, Battlefield just seems like an obvious one here.

If they ban Battlefield I'd go with lylat or something since it's kinda the next best thing for the same reasons? Iono. Just less preferable since lylat has a higher ceiling than Battlefield and Kirby doesn't really care to kill off the top unless you're at a REALLY high percent and he just wants to uthrow you for the kill because you're amazing at DI'ing. lol So lylat or....iono. That's my take on it.

I guess you could ban RC since he doesn't do too bad there. Probably does better there than Marth. >>

 

[Reizilla]

A Kirby tried to CP RC on me, but he was garbage and all he really did was try to fish for the grab at the beginning and get me stage gimped. I don't think that stuff works too well at a high level though...

 

[Remzi]

forgot about this thread, any more input on Kirby?

 

[Reizilla]

i got some input for you bengalz

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

I'm not too sure of what stages to CP against Kirby, so I'll just say what I think about each stage since there's not much input so far.

Battlefield and Lylat should be fine stages to play against Kirby, like fear said. But the thing with BF is that you must be careful at high %'s not to get grabbed in the middle, as it's an easy up-throw kill for Kirby. I think Lylat's tipping could also mess up a Kirby's CG/combo at low %'s.
I feel the platform in SV would help a Marth get back to the stage though, as it would help get through Kirby's edgeguarding and wall of bairs.
Yoshi's Island's box like design would prevent a Kirby from sucking you up and spitting you out under the stage XD. The long platform in the middle would benefit Marth's juggle traps since Kirby doesn't have much to deal with them. He has his bair, nair, or dair, but dair is unsafe, bair can be beat by Marth's juggle game as long as the Marth is paying attention to where the Kirby is going, and Kirby's Nair starts out slow.

 

[Remzi]

moving on, pika pika pikachu

I always take him to BF or Castle Siege if BF is banned or I already won on it.

 

[Pr0phetic]

BF or Lylat for me.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

is PS1 fine? or is that some trouble?

 

[Remzi]

PS1 is allright for me. I don't see any real advantages out of picking it. Pikachu's plat game pales in comparison to Marth, and CPing something without constant platform presence seems like a waste to me.

BF seems far and away the best to me. It has platforms and it isn't very wide at all. That's like perfect for this matchup.

SV is annoying as hell against Pika, they can sit up there and camp the platform.

 

[ViCTORiOUSViC]

Actually, you have a point
PS1 wouldn't be a good CP
I'll just stick to BF and Lylat

 

[Punishment Divine]

I have never lost to a Pikachu on BF, other stages dont really matter lol I've seen NinjaLink (He has a top Pika imo) go Pika on Rainbow Cruise so maybe ban that?

EDIT: Not saying I play top Pika's a whole lot, but I'm just sayin that Pikas I have played and the one I play with often almost never, like 1/1000 beat me on BF XD

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Lylat Cruise is a good counter pick for Pikachu because the titled platforms can mess with his Quick Attack game, Battlefield of course. How is Castle Siege with Pikachu? Anyone knows before I find out? †

 

[Lore]

♪ Lylat Cruise is a good counter pick for Pikachu because the titled platforms can mess with his Quick Attack game, Battlefield of course. How is Castle Siege with Pikachu? Anyone knows before I find out? †

Castle siege can mess with his quick attack game a little and block thunders in the first and second transformations.

I agree with everything else you said, but I would like to add that it CAN be a decent idea to ban FD, since it's flat with no platforms. His Tjolt (projectile) can be annoying at times on there (although you can simply jab to stop each one), and there is nothing that blocks thunder, which is one of pika's main killing options.

Fake edit: Forgot to mention that Japes CAN be a good cp since a lot of pika's kill moves are vertical, and since the stage has a high ceiling, well, I think you can get the picture. However, I would still recommend Bf over it.

 

[Remzi]

ok movin on to luigi. almost done =)

 

[Player-3]

weegee sees everything

100:0

 

[§leepy God]

♪ You would want to pick stages with high ceilings for Luigi. But over all, try to stay away from Delfino Plaza, Luigi's Mansion, and Frigate Orpheon, besides those being bad stages for Marth, (not much for Delfino Plaza), but Luigi does very well there. But over all, there's not a lot of stages that can give Marth trouble fighting Luigi. Our best pick would be Battlefield, Yoshi's Island, and Halberd. Green Greens is a fun stage to take him if it's not ban in a tourney. †

Castle siege can mess with his quick attack game a little and block thunders in the first and second transformations.

♪ I kind of feel that every character doesn't do well on the first transformation of the stage. XD †

♪ Second section of the stage is as you said. :3 †

I agree with everything else you said, but I would like to add that it CAN be a decent idea to ban FD, since it's flat with no platforms. His Tjolt (projectile) can be annoying at times on there (although you can simply jab to stop each one), and there is nothing that blocks thunder, which is one of pika's main killing options.

♪ Thanks, and I'll agree with banning FD. ^_^; †

Fake edit: Forgot to mention that Japes CAN be a good cp since a lot of pika's kill moves are vertical, and since the stage has a high ceiling, well, I think you can get the picture. However, I would still recommend Bf over it.

♪ Pikachu kind of do better than Marth here. Mostly because Pikachu is not very effected by the water of the stage, but then again, Pikachu does have a harder time to kill here. I guess I can try this stage out more. †

 

[Fatalzyntax]

weegee sees everything

100:0

He can't see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
99:1




He has an interesting Down B.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ Is this thread still updating? It seems like nearly every stage thread is going to waste know because not many people are replying to them on every board. For the sake of more knowledge, we can't let this thread die. D: †

 

[Remzi]

Yea, lets try to continue this please. I don't know much about Luigi, though.

BF has served me well, FD hasn't. I've had them CP me to Delfino, not quite sure why.

Tired, don't feel like thinking right now.

 

[§leepy God]

♪ With Luigi, you mostly don't have to worry about stage picks, just watch out for stages that doesn't work too well with Marth. I can't really say what stage is good for Luigi. D: †

 

[Tophes]

When playing Luigi, counterpicking the neutrals will pretty much be your best bet. Just make sure that if you're on stages with platforms, take control of the ground and make sure Luigi is above you. If you're on the platform and Luigi's below, prepare for u-air pressure and **** if you get hit. Do what you can to make sure you maintain the momentum and you'll do fine.

 

[DTP]

Seems like a good place to post this.

Luigi boards just started discussing the Marth match up. Any input from you guys would help a lot!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=251887

 

[Remzi]

I wanna finish this already. I'm not gonna let it fall to the bottom this time and I'm gonna stop being lazy. Let's wrap up Luigi then continue on.

 

[-Mars-]

Why would you ban YI against Sheik? That's a really bad Sheik stage.

 

[Shaya]

Platform makes it bad for Marth to short hop regularly to mix up pressureeeeeeeee game.

Marth sucks on YI against anyone with a projectile

 

[BarDulL]

ON THE CONTRARY...

Ah hell, what do I know anyway?

 

[Shaya]

Okay "sucks" may be excessive.

Bardull knows I dont mean falco
And I do like being told otherwise, because if my conceptions are wrong, then I need an update

 

[Remzi]

can we stick to luigi >_>

my experience in this matchup is really limited so i don't want to say much.

on theory and light experience alone, BF and SV work just fine.

I'd say to ban FD because it's long and has distant blastzones which favor his superior recovery.

 

[Rad]

Counter-picks:

- Frigate Orpheon
- Halberd
- Norfair*
- Smashville
- Yoshi's Island

Bans:

- Battlefield*
- Jungle Japes

That's what the Luigi board's match-up thread says. It's right and wrong, I guess. '*' means 'preference.'

I don't know what I can add to this discussion because I have no Luigi experience, but on paper it's a 'standard' match-up of spacing + zoning. You out-range Luigi with the exception of his projectile, which isn't amazing, so to an extent I think all stages should favour Marth.

Platforms should be good because Luigi can Juggle Marth, and then there's all the normal reasons.

Yeah... umm...

Ignore me and focus on what the Luigi boards say >_>. They have three quotes which don't seem very insightful also.