Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[hippiedude92]

um yeah that stuff is sorta outdated lol i main luigi and play just about almost every marth in NY

preferably a marth should get a small flat stage imo, because in platforms its like a 50-50 chances of it being in ur favor as in, u pressuring him or vice versa but i think luigi benefits more from platforms since it'll hurt marth being pressure'd and combo'd hard but then again stages like in BF are gaining the upper advantage position so idk.

 

[Pr0phetic]

BF and Lylat for platform stages. Don't go Yoshi's, I don't recommend FD or Halberd either.

 

[Remzi]

It's looking like BF and SV in terms of CPs so far...

I guess Halberd would be a good ban considering Luigi's insane vertical kill power.

 

[hippiedude92]

basically anything small where u can zone and stage control correctly will **** luigi

anything big stages will make luigi camp with fireballs/evade with nado and walk away alot and gay baiting so bait that ****

 

[zhao_guang]

when playing luigi, dont be stupid

thats about it

 

[Renegade TX2000]

vs bowser and dk... Lylat cruise nuff said... if they wiff their recovery and your grabbing ledge that stage will 60% screw them over. I did it vs ook's dk... Warriorknights bowser/and sliqs

 

[P. O. F.]

Is it me or is Final Destination a horrible stage for Marth?

 

[Player-3]

it's just you

 

[P. O. F.]

it's just you

Marth pretty much struggles against ANY character that has a projectile on FD. He may have the advantage on certain characters but its definitely his worst neutral.

Against the likes of

Lucario
Toon Link
Snake
King DDD
Falco


and basically any character w a projectile hes pretty crummy there. Look at the list too....most of it has FD banned. The fact that he beats MK on Fd though is really funny. lol.

I definitely prefer SV, BF, YS, and even friggin Lylat over Fd because of the auto tippers in lylat. lol.

 

[Player-3]

i didn't say it was good

i said it wasn't horrible

 

[P. O. F.]

fair enough

 

[Remzi]

ok moving on.

pit now.

the obvious ban here is FD, tons of room and no platforms make it easy for him to set up camp from afar and rack up damage.

I love BF in this matchup and I actually really like YI here as well.

 

[Jem.]

Most Pits will ban Yoshi's. BF and Smashville are very solid choices.

 

[Iliad]

RC for counter against pit. I know it seems silly given his recovery method, but if you can gimp his jumps off stage (fairly simple) there's alot of open area he needs to fly through, all it would take would be a nudge from a dolphin slash or even a sideB to ruin his upb recovery.

When the stage isn't transitioning, sideB into dtilt lock works wonders against pit, as it out prioritizes most of his spammable moves. As well, forcing him onto the platforms leads to early uair tipper kills.

/consider

 

[C.J.]

Personally I'd ban delfino. A lot of Pit's camping is done from the edge so the stage doesn't really matter that much in regards to his camping. Delfino lets him camp just as well, and from more angles, as well as sharking w/ his ridiculous uair.

 

[Sake-Hato]

is it just me or why dose it seem half of the cp's we take chars to is rc? aint rc a bad stage for marth?

 

[C.J.]

Not really. It's just people who would want to take us there, **** us there, like MK.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I'd ban YI and FD.

For CP, BF and Delfino.

 

[Blacknight99923]

It can't do much In terms of loop arrows on BF he can potentiall scroog on Sv i suppose

As much as halbered isn't good for marth Pit won't be killin gus upward and Pit will die early upward as well so i might think Cping halberd might work.

Yoshis might be helpful

I suppose castle siege
as well

tbh there isn't a stage i wouldn't want to fight pit on other than japes or FD

 

[Remzi]

Ok, Pit is done. Onto Fox!

BF is definitely my favorite stage here.

Bans are halberd and fd for me.

 

[Blacknight99923]

Yoshis high ceiling helps with anti up smash kills

 

[Megavitamins]

brinstar if they dont ban it, hes balls there.

lylat ***** too

 

[Blacknight99923]

Lylat ***** us too

 

[Megavitamins]

Marth's best stage is imo lylat wtf?

marth is awesome there

 

[Blacknight99923]

wtf? Lylat is a bad stage for everyone but MK and pit


and brinstar on fox? with low ceiling(if i remember) his u smash is going to **** **** **** us

 

[Remzi]

Yeah, the spacies do particularly poorly on Lylat and it's really a pretty good Marth stage.

Not sure about Brinstar, that's a stage I'll avoid pretty much 100% of the time simply because i don't know it at all.

 

[Pr0phetic]

CP: BF (even if it's his best stage), Norfair, Lylat
Ban: Halberd (low ceilings a no go)

 

[P. O. F.]

Why would you ban FD against Kirby and counter pick Halberd against Donkey Kong? LOL

Donkey Kong kills marth from uair probably around like 90% on that level.

Kirby does not have a projectile so Marth does not need to get away from projectile crap like he normally would on FD. Marth can easily zone Kirby and make him pay for any approach he has.

I think that mentioning Rainbow Cruise in terms for counter picking other characters is a pretty close to useless idea because any good player will know that you should just pick MK when someone says, "We're going to Rainbow Cruise." Why wouldn't you? That's like saying I'm gonna stay Marth on Rainbow Cruise in Melee when I could just pick Fox because he destroys everyone on that stage just like MK does in Brawl.

Also for Fox:

Counter: FD, Lylat, BF (I say FD because his projectile is not annoying and its easier to get his d throw chain grab off and predict the illusion while edge guarding and punish accordingly much so than other stages IMO)

Ban: Halberd, Frigate (any stage w low ceiling to avoid Usmash uair crap.)

 

[Blacknight99923]

Why would you ban FD against Kirby and counter pick Halberd against Donkey Kong? LOL

Donkey Kong kills marth from uair probably around like 90% on that level.

Kirby does not have a projectile so Marth does not need to get away from projectile crap like he normally would on FD. Marth can easily zone Kirby and make him pay for any approach he has.

I think that mentioning Rainbow Cruise in terms for counter picking other characters is a pretty close to useless idea because any good player will know that you should just pick MK when someone says, "We're going to Rainbow Cruise." Why wouldn't you? That's like saying I'm gonna stay Marth on Rainbow Cruise in Melee when I could just pick Fox because he destroys everyone on that stage just like MK does in Brawl.

Also for Fox:

Counter: FD, Lylat, BF (I say FD because his projectile is not annoying and its easier to get his d throw chain grab off and predict the illusion while edge guarding and punish accordingly much so than other stages IMO)

Ban: Halberd, Frigate (any stage w low ceiling to avoid Usmash uair crap.)

Marth in all honesty beats MK in the air, considering most of RC isn't off stage i don't think it really helps MK when we can just fair him. Also RC for a good portion of it isn't obstructed by GRs although some parts are it allows for GR spikes fairs and upbs (the latter will kill really early in some parts here)

Foxes generally consider Fd a good fox stage, Fox needs you to approuch with no platforms to help you FD aids fox not to mention i garuentee its impossible to PS all of foxes lasers on approuch



If popular opinion states lylat is a good marth stage then i will submit. Although i do suppose that on stage it is a good marth stage. And that agruably marths recovery is fast enough to deal with stage tilting

 

[Saki-]

Why would you ban FD against Kirby and counter pick Halberd against Donkey Kong? LOL

More stage area= less sword in kirby's face. I mean think about it, he has a lot more room to set up his annoying bair pokes, and yes I know we can out range it but giving him the opportunity just makes it all the more frustrating.

But Hablerd against DK IS LOL. Something needs a bit of tuning. Keep Japes as a solid ban for DK.

Counter: FD, Lylat, BF (I say FD because his projectile is not annoying and its easier to get his d throw chain grab off and predict the illusion while edge guarding and punish accordingly much so than other stages IMO)

Ban: Halberd, Frigate (any stage w low ceiling to avoid Usmash uair crap.)

NEVER cp a projectile character to FD. It's dumb. FD isn't even a Marth stage so why pick it anyway?

I'm biased and I hate FD, oh well.

Marth in all honesty beats MK in the air, considering most of RC isn't off stage i don't think it really helps MK when we can just fair him. Also RC for a good portion of it isn't obstructed by GRs although some parts are it allows for GR spikes fairs and upbs (the latter will kill really early in some parts here)

Say what now? Which Metaknight do you play against?


Edit: I was too busy looking like a troll to even post what I'd CP Fox to.

Personally I use Lylat, Battlefield, and Delfino. I need more matches with Reflex to really prove if it's effective or not.

 

[Blacknight99923]

What Mks do you play against?

Even P3 had stated RC was good for marth against MK provided you played it inteligently

 

[Saki-]

Non that are well known mind you, but I play against a couple really good ones. I'm not sure if it's my playstyle or just me getting mind ****ed, but I'm convinced my ground game does better against a metaknight than my aerial game.

 

[Blacknight99923]

That might work for you but personaly I disagree

if i remember our fair> their fair

our aerial movement> their aerial movment

our uair> his dair

and our dair sucks but it outranges his uair :D

We simply have more airial range and movment then he does in the air

MK however actually equals us in ground range with his ftilt as long as our foward smash and his dtilt

 

[Saki-]

However the odds of getting punished are much higher in the air. We lose a lot of options while in the air opposed to the ground.

MKs Aerial movements > Ours

Unless we're planning on canceling our uair, it doesn't matter. Mk is still going to get us with that dair.

<.< and because this is clearly irrelevant to the current discussion I'll just stop with that note.

 

[Remzi]

Guys, we can go back and discuss DK/MK AFTER we finish going through all the characters. I appreciate the input but please just hold your thoughts for now.

And yea, I completely forgot, Delfino is AWESOME here. Picto is good too because of the high ceiling.

Someone mentioned Frigate, anyone else have trouble against Fox there?

 

[Blacknight99923]

GRR wants to agrue back.....


Fox sucks on Frigate

 

[M@v]

vs fox:

Cp: Lylat, brinstar, or bf (foxs 2 worst stages vs you, and your powerstage)

Ban: Halberd. Fox's best stage. You are slightly better on phase one, but the fox is going to camp like crazy there, and try to attack you from below with rising fairs and upairs, since thats your weakness. Watch out for the extra low ceiling. Once your on the ship, your in fox's ownage grounds. Low ceiling, flat like FD, and the platform is perfect for fox's aerials.

FD: For obvious reasons. Many foxes might opt to go here because they dont know halberd as I do .

Ps1: A less common, but still very good, fox stage. Flat parts like FD, and fox has several shine infinites here.

Fox doesn't suck on Frigate, nor is it his best stage. Its average for him. You won't get any major advantage by taking fox there if that is the goal.

 

[Remzi]

Thanks for the input Mav, it's always good to get opinions from the other character.

Moving on to Pokemon Trainer.

 

[M@v]

No problem.

By the way, I'm picking Marth up as a secondary .

 

[Pr0phetic]

Pokemon Trainer screams, "CP Me to BF, Lylat, or Frigate!"