Official Marth Counterpicking Discussion *Currently Discussing Pokemon Trainer*

[Freezewish]

Mansion should be banned anyway in tournaments. >_>

I wonder what advantages she has on Delfino.

 

[BBoyindo]

Mansion should be banned anyway in tournaments. >_>

I wonder what advantages she has on Delfino.

Grab release CG to death.

 

[Remzi]

I'm gonna start inviting other character boards to discuss. We'll revisit the old ones later with input from the other boards. I'll start by going to the ZSS boards now.

 

[risemix]

While my ZSS friends will disagree, I never hesitate to take Marth to Yoshi's Island. If I can get my opponent to land on the platform above the stage, I am in an advantageous position and because of the nature of Marth's approaches, it isn't ahrd to put him there. ZSS also recovers pretty well there because there's no risk of a borked tether (though Marth does as well)and also edgeguards pretty well there as well.

I disagree that Delfino is a good stage for ZSS when vs. Marth. Pick it, love it, **** us. Also, stages where the distance between the edge and the dead zone are small can be pretty nasty because of Marth's nair. Example: Corneria, though that is banned in most tournies there days.

In my opinion you should ban Yoshi's or Lylat and if possible take ZSS to Delfino, Corneria (if unbanned) and Japes (again, if it isn't banned). I don't feel like ZSS has a ton of stage disadvantages because she's so mobile and has amazing recovery options (and is basically ungimpable).

Friends tell me that RC is bad for ZSS too in the right match-ups, but I'm not sure about Marth. Thought I'd throw that out there, though.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I'm gonna start inviting other character boards to discuss. We'll revisit the old ones later with input from the other boards. I'll start by going to the ZSS boards now.

yeah, getting other boards involved is a good idea.

 

[FK1]

If you're good at playing Marth, take her to Frigate Orpheon.

 

[Schwaumlaut]

I'd add Lylat to the list of bans. I hear she's pretty beastly there.

Lylat's a problem because the platforms are low, so her dsmash spam can block huge swaths of the level.

Delfino, huh? Most of what I'm saying comes from frequently playing a ZSS, and while he's no Snakeee, he's not terrible... I guess the main advantage Delfino provides is a short ceiling in some areas, so uair can kill? I still feel like Marth's vertical killers work better. I don't see a reason to avoid Delfino.

 

[Shadow 111]

I think Marth has the advantage on Delphino. But actually ZSS is more likely to get a kill at the low ceiling parts. This isn't a big deal really though. Marth maneuvers much better on the majority of the stage than she does

EDIT: This is Snakeee

 

[Remzi]

Hmm.. Snakeee would you consider Delfino to be a good counterpick, or are you just saying that we shouldn't ban it?

 

[Freezewish]

needs more discussion.

If we're done with ZSS, may i suggest lucario or wario next?

 

[Nefarious B]

I wouldn't go frigate... if you're hoping to mess her up with the ledgeless ledge, ZSS usually doesn't get gimped that easily, I think Marth would die just as easily from that.

And on Frigate 1 camping under the platform could hurt Marth's approach options like the platform on Yoshi's does, I'm not sure it might be higher though.

It's not a bad field to pick but you can do better with battlefield

 

[BBoyindo]

needs more discussion.

If we're done with ZSS, may i suggest lucario or wario next?

I think Wario would be best, because of everyone who started playing him lately.

 

[Remzi]

I think Wario would be best, because of everyone who started playing him lately.

Wario is kinda straight forward, so this shouldn't take long.

As for ZSS, is everyone straight with:

CPs: Frigate, BF, SV

Bans: Norfair, RC, FD

 

[BBoyindo]

Yeah i agree, and i'm glad this thing is finally speeding up a little.

 

[Freezewish]

For wario:

CP: BF, Lylat, Delfino

Ban: FD, Frigate

Yeah...

 

[illinialex24]

Oh yeah Frigate sucks against him. His bike allows him to get back cleanly so you are screwed by comparison off the right side. I would recommend banning FO first, and prefer to play FD than FO.

 

[Remzi]

Hmm.. I like FD a lot here. Grab releases never get screwed over on the flat terrain. BF is good for everything BUT grab releases. Frigate sucks. Idk about Lylat, I just hate the stage in general.

 

[Quik17]

Even though BF is a good Wario stage, I usually ban it against Marth. He's insanely good there. As for the counter picks, I CP Marth either to Frigate or Brinstar depending on which of them he/she banned.

 

[PhantomX]

You guys should counterpick Wario to Rainbow Cruise or Japes, he's not very good on those stages >_> <_< >_> <_<

 

[furiousduffmanx]

marth has too much trouble hitting wario in rainbow

 

[illinialex24]

marth has too much trouble hitting wario in rainbow

Not really, and Marth from my experience should never CP Japes. Its not a very good stage for him because the layout spreads him out too much with platforms that screw with him a lot more than help him.

Marth should ban: Frigate Orpheon

He should CP: Battlefield, Rainbow Cruise, or Halberd imo. I kinda like Halberd here actually.

 

[Freezewish]

No love for Lylat?

How about SV as a CP then?

 

[BacklashMarth]

VS wario, pick a stage tha isn't that long so the match isnt a full 8 mins of torture ( this happens on FD ). I agree with illi about picking Halberd. Something about that platform is nice for you and doesnt do much for wario. I think grab releases may work better there but i could be wrong.

 

[PhantomX]

Halberd is good for you guys b/c of the low ceiling, meaning lower percentage uptilt/upsmash kills. In case you didn't notice, the stages I mentioned are placed you DON'T want to take Wario. Do NOT counterpick RC unless you want to lose, I'm not even kidding.

We can outrun/outcamp MK and GW here, Marth doesn't stand a chance.

 

[3xSwords]

But isn't Wario's uair insanely strong?

 

[PhantomX]

It is insanely strong, but Marth isn't exactly easy to FF upair b/c most of his attacks sweep around him.

 

[Punishment Divine]

I agree about Halberd, it's much easier to hit Wario with a utilt/usmash than a dsmash or fsmash due to his general strategy and ability to always be in the air somehow. Plus you can get a free usmash from an air release, and you can usmash OoS if he goes above your shield.

Marths really need to learn how to play on Halberd lol. It should be your stage of choice for a lot of characters imo

 

[Remzi]

IMO:

Counters: SV, BF, Halberd

Bans: Japes, RC

Anything else?

 

[BBoyindo]

Yes, Brinstar is a ban. He does insanely well there.

 

[Remzi]

Of course, forgot brinstar. Any other input before we advance on?

 

[BBoyindo]

No i think it's fine like this.
Shall we do IC's now, cause it is really important to CP wisely against them.

 

[Remzi]

I was planning on doing Olimar next, we can do ICs after

ill update the OP now.

 

[illinialex24]

Oh ok. Olimar: Frigate Orpheon. Go there and love it. Your backup is Rainbow Cruise. Even though Japes kills him, it kills you too. Don't go Japes.

 

[Punishment Divine]

Oh ok. Olimar: Frigate Orpheon. Go there and love it. Your backup is Rainbow Cruise. Even though Japes kills him, it kills you too. Don't go Japes.

I would prefer japes to RC, actually. Olimar can kill you off the short sides and top much easier than you can kill him. At least on Japes the ceiling is high so his ******** usmash won't kill you as early, and you can gimp him off the sides easier.

I don't quite like Frigate either. Idk it just doesn't feel like a great Marth stage...

Maybe PS1? Idk how bad the weird edges are for lolimar but it seems harder for him to sweetspot the ledge anywhere without a lip

 

[Remzi]

IMaybe PS1? Idk how bad the weird edges are for lolimar but it seems harder for him to sweetspot the ledge anywhere without a lip

As far as I know, the ledges are much worse for us than they are for him.

Japes screws him over much worse than it does for us. Frigate is good. RC is usually good, but you can get killed early at some stages.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

PS1 is arguably Olimar's best stage, so don't CP it.

RC isn't THAT bad for him. His usmash kills retardedly early on the top, and he can Pikmincide you pretty easily there.

 

[BBoyindo]

Bengals have you messaged the Oli boards yet?
I don't know how PS1's ledges screw him over, it surely messes you up more then Oli.
I don't like japes that much, since he can spam smashes and pikmen from the side platforms. There are lots of ledges for him to toy with his up-b as well.
RC is a good CP, and BF is always good.
Idk why you forgot it, but Norfair should be banned first if it is allowed. Yoshi's isn't that good as well, since it is harder to gimp him.
His up smash is insanely strong and fast, and stages with low ceilings should be avoided as well.
Some stages: Brinstar, Corneria, Halberd, Delfino in some cases.
Delfino is difficult anyway since you can't gimp him all the time, and the walk offs are better for as well.

 

[Remzi]

Idk why you forgot it, but Norfair should be banned first if it is allowed. Yoshi's isn't that good as well, since it is harder to gimp him.

We haven't really gone into bans yet, but as far as I'm concerned. Get rid of Luigi's and Norfair.

Ill contact oli boards

 

[illinialex24]

I would prefer japes to RC, actually. Olimar can kill you off the short sides and top much easier than you can kill him. At least on Japes the ceiling is high so his ******** usmash won't kill you as early, and you can gimp him off the sides easier.

I don't quite like Frigate either. Idk it just doesn't feel like a great Marth stage...

Maybe PS1? Idk how bad the weird edges are for lolimar but it seems harder for him to sweetspot the ledge anywhere without a lip

Nah, PS1 is pretty good for him because its the perfect height for grab **** there.

As far as I know, the ledges are much worse for us than they are for him.

Japes screws him over much worse than it does for us. Frigate is good. RC is usually good, but you can get killed early at some stages.

Japes screws you over a lot though. Its hard to tipper on Japes and he can still F-smash **** you here, even if he can't recover really at all. Go frigate and use nair if he's off to the right, and you should be fine. RC if they ban Frigate.

PS1 is arguably Olimar's best stage, so don't CP it.

RC isn't THAT bad for him. His usmash kills retardedly early on the top, and he can Pikmincide you pretty easily there.

Except if you avoid him for a bit and then when the stage rotates he is screwed over. Add that with a wall and I really like this stage as Marth against him. Plus your F-smash tipper is such a killer. Just don't do over him. Enough said. Or you will die.

 

[Zip.]

I Definitely agree with Frigate, it seems if oli plays smart, RC seems neutral..also how does olimar usually do on Norfair?