Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Arturito_Burrito]

Alright 1st off I'm just arguing against Ike being limited in almost everything that has been mentioned.

And that QD ledge hop was only mentioned as a reply that said what If I stay away from your reach? which would actually make it a smart thing to do. Ike can use QD if he far away from his opponent which was the scenario set up.

It doesn't need to be. Ike's aerials do not come out extremely quick you can react to it and counter afterwards.
I'll go ahead and agree with this, but Nair is quick its above average on aerials at least.

Hmm okay.
What options does Ike have though once they roll dodge away?
Same as you really. Depending on the location of the stage one could have a slight advantage over the other. Both are just back into the neutral position.

not really. Any move that activates within 4 frames will clank with a jab anything less will either clank or result in me hitting you.
I said upon shielding though. That means 4 frames of the shield droping 4 frames of jab. Good human reaction at tournament level play is 6 frames so you have 1 frame for your move to end and 1 for your other to start up in order to clank. If you where planing to lead into another move from the start then you have 7 frames for a move to end and another to start, If the first move is one that can be stringed Ike will probably keep holding the shield though.

Ike's Nair is not as fast as most Nairs. for example Sonic's Nair beats Ike's out in terms of speed.
Its a quick move but in comparison to others, its actually rather average.
Fair as i said can be dodged on reation and avoided . I don't really hink Fair is a good offensive move IMO.
it isn't good but it isn't bad. If spaced well its very hard to punish.


No Fox is going to use grounded lasers against Ike.
If I leap over you and drop a bomb the aether will miss and hit you reducing any damage that may be done.
I don't need to roll you're on the ledge. I'll wait if I have to.
Ike can just U smash duck under those then.
Why would the aether miss? it would actually just blow up the bomb and bombs don't change the direction in which you are going so you'll still get hit. In case that it does hit Ike SA will keep on powering trough and still hit you.
This reply was actually to one where you talk about running away while shooting projectiles and Ike closing in on them. Then you replied with this jumping over and rolling stuff. So basically your at the edge not me in this scenario.

yeah I made a mistake on MK sorry.
When two moves clank erially they do not cancel they continue.
For example if Sonic's Fair hits MK's side B it goes clank clank clank clank then Mk gets hit.
or if Sonic Fairs a missile the Fair continues even though he cancel a hit in his Fair.
On the ground this is true, however I can just bomb then arrow so if you smack the arrow you get hit by the bomb. Or I can arrow, Zair then bomb.
Or if I am falco I can just SHDL
That is with multi hit moves. Jab and Projectiles will just cancel out. Other wise why would Marth be able to do it?
Your original arguement was that Marth and MK could break the projectiles with attacks which Ike can as well but I wouldn't bother doing that when shielding is much more reliable, This would mean Zair wouldn't do much.

mart can do it because aerially his attacks start and finish up more quickly than Ike's.
On the ground its the same thing for him as it is for Ike though he tends to have etter mobility.
Marth can do it in the air better but Idk why Ike would jump up to try and break a projectile. Sure if they shot it after he was in the air he can't do anything but try and air dodge.

True enough on the baiting. you acn get siheld grabbed if they dash shield grab. Or they can shield then just grab you after shielding because thogh you have range, the lag afterwards lets them take advantage more easily.
This is just going in circles now lol. I keep saying that Fair is long enough to go unpunished. But if you predicted right right and shield dashed then It was kind of a mistake on the Ike's part for being predictable.

That depends. some characters have faster aerials and a good amount of characters are faster than you aerially so its not a good idea to go for a Fair especially if they are above you. (airdodge to Fair from a Peach showed me this today)
I agree with this and I actually wouldn't do it but you talked about a jigs just attacking and running after you shield. Eventually you would get a chance to Fair them since they are attacking in a pattern.

Uair or Fair? Not so much. Nair? I can run in and stop right out of your jab range and just wait for you to do something. If timed correctly I can even run up and grab after your nair. I'll tank your jab and grab you right out of it.

The advantage I get when your on the ledge is that you cannot adjust your spacing, while I happen to be the fastest character in the game. I sit outside your range and just wait. I will wait all day if I have to.

If a jab gets shielded the grab coming at Ike can be side step. It was already stated, and if an Ike is trying to get back on stage then the Ike should be playing it safe. Hell he can just roll after the Nair thanks for tanking that jab.

Ike can play the waiting game as well though. Wait the entire 8 minutes if he has to. Just depends on stock and percents now on who will crack first.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I matters a lot for Ike the safety of his Nair. It is his most used move for spacing

you're not understanding. I was criticizing the Nair itself not its usage.

[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I think I wasn’t clear enough. The Fair’s ending lag in the ground is much shorter than Fair’s ending lag in the air because of the IASA frames. I’m not comparing Fair with Nair at all as they are very distinctive moves.

Ah okay. however that still support what I said earlier about his aerials being less useful beyond SH distance.

Please give me a few examples to work with.

MK, Marth, Luigi.

Of course you can take immediate action after I’ve landed. But then I would have already auto canceled if I used Nair.

you still have laggign upon landing with the Nair. you have roughly 3-4 frames before you can react.
At which point what will you do in such a position?
If you Fair or Nair its too slow and will lead to getting thrown off.
If you jab I can just shieldgrab you.

I'll go ahead and agree with this, but Nair is quick its above average on aerials at least.

Agreed.

Same as you really. Depending on the location of the stage one could have a slight advantage over the other. Both are just back into the neutral position.

not really.
For example if I am sonic can ledgehop my side B. You rush forward I release and take advantage of my invincibility frames.
Or I can ^B and escape you safely.
my ledgehopping as Sonic is also better. ( he gains SH height Ike does not)
Even if the options are appear the same I actually have more I can deal with than you and I have other options toe scape being camped.

I said upon shielding though. That means 4 frames of the shield droping 4 frames of jab. Good human reaction at tournament level play is 6 frames so you have 1 frame for your move to end and 1 for your other to start up in order to clank. If you where planing to lead into another move from the start then you have 7 frames for a move to end and another to start, If the first move is one that can be stringed Ike will probably keep holding the shield though.

Not really.You have something along the lines of 10 frames to powershield a move. reacting upon movement is more effective and better than that of you using a moe like counter.
At best you'll keep bothering his shield but after the first dodge the opponent can escape with enough time to escape the 2nd jab with a roll dodge or any other move.

No one expects the Ftilt though! Sorry I was recalling a match today.

Ike can just U smash duck under those then.

why? i can easily just punish you afterwards for using your usmash.

Why would the aether miss? it would actually just blow up the bomb and bombs don't change the direction in which you are going so you'll still get hit. In case that it does hit Ike SA will keep on powering trough and still hit you.
This reply was actually to one where you talk about running away while shooting projectiles and Ike closing in on them. Then you replied with this jumping over and rolling stuff. So basically your at the edge not me in this scenario.

my mistake I was responding to several posts so I mixed things.
From my experience I have managed to drop a bomb no Ike where it hit him out of the aether.

Anyways if I am at the ledge I can try dash shield grabs, baiting and a few other things to try and get by.

That is with multi hit moves. Jab and Projectiles will just cancel out. Other wise why would Marth be able to do it?
Your original arguement was that Marth and MK could break the projectiles with attacks which Ike can as well but I wouldn't bother doing that when shielding is much more reliable, This would mean Zair wouldn't do much.

If you shield the Zair you're going to get grabbed immediately afterwards. This has been tested and proven to be true.
For aerials even if they are not multihit moves this proves to be true.
Ground wise as i said earlier they cancel.
Either way you're going to have a tough time getting through the projectiles especially since your movement isn't very high nor is your mobility.

Marth can do it in the air better but Idk why Ike would jump up to try and break a projectile. Sure if they shot it after he was in the air he can't do anything but try and air dodge.

I mentioned it as to why his options are lesser .

This is just going in circles now lol. I keep saying that Fair is long enough to go unpunished. But if you predicted right right and shield dashed then It was kind of a mistake on the Ike's part for being predictable.

Yeah circles I agree we'll skip a few things and test it then,

I agree with this and I actually wouldn't do it but you talked about a jigs just attacking and running after you shield. Eventually you would get a chance to Fair them since they are attacking in a pattern.

No jigglypuff is on the ground. they are always aerial

 

[Dark Sonic]

If a jab gets shielded the grab coming at Ike can be side step. It was already stated, and if an Ike is trying to get back on stage then the Ike should be playing it safe. Hell he can just roll after the Nair thanks for tanking that jab.

Ike can play the waiting game as well though. Wait the entire 8 minutes if he has to. Just depends on stock and percents now on who will crack first.

I'm not shielding the jab I'm grabbing through it (you know, the whole super armor grab thing). That's of course assuming that you are trying to jab to stop my punish attempt. At that point it's just a mixup, but it's still in my favor since I don't get punished if I guess wrong, but If I guess right I get to throw you off stage and do it all over again.

And if I get tired of the waiting game I wait for you to drop off the ledge so you can grab it again, then run up and leave a spring. If you Aether you tank the spring like nothing happened, but I still get away and can even dair back to the ground and take advantage of your lag if you land on the stage (free grab). If you grab the ledge again it's just reset but with you having an extra 4%.

 

[Guilhe]

you're not understanding. I was criticizing the Nair itself not its usage.
Ah okay. however that still support what I said earlier about his aerials being less useful beyond SH distance.
MK, Marth, Luigi.

MK: My apologies, Ike isn’t like MK. Sorry if I gave you any high hopes about anything related between those two;

Marth: Sure. Faster and Multi hit, but weaker, shorter and doesn’t link to true combos;

Luigi: Similar to Capt. Falcon’s knee strike, it is hard to land due to his minimal hit box. Its nockback adjusts nicely during the match, but the limited reach and Luigi's caracteristic low traction makes it easier to shield grab. DDD can kill him doesn't land it.

Ike: Long range, auto-cancels, decent damage by its own and can be packed with jab for 25% true combo. Relatively slower.

Looks good for me.

you still have laggign upon landing with the Nair. you have roughly 3-4 frames before you can react.

Have you read what you just wrote? It is the same as saying “Even so you still have a lag of approximately 6 milliseconds”! Of course Sonic has the advantage over Ike when gimping and recovering, but you are exaggerating it too much.

Besides, shouldn’t we be discussing this in a matchup thread?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

@ dark sonic:Well if the Ike just side steps your grab then you'll end up being grabbed. If he rolls behind you then you have your back to the ledge now.

When Ike drops down he doesn't have to use aether he can just double jump back onto the ledge and if you try and spring jump that he can climb up and get onto the stage while your going up and coming back down.

not really.
For example if I am sonic can ledgehop my side B. You rush forward I release and take advantage of my invincibility frames.
Or I can ^B and escape you safely.
my ledgehopping as Sonic is also better. ( he gains SH height Ike does not)
Even if the options are appear the same I actually have more I can deal with than you and I have other options toe scape being camped.
This was in the jab leading up to moves discussion, how did you end up in the ledge?

Not really.You have something along the lines of 10 frames to powershield a move. reacting upon movement is more effective and better than that of you using a move like counter.
At best you'll keep bothering his shield but after the first dodge the opponent can escape with enough time to escape the 2nd jab with a roll dodge or any other move.

No one expects the Ftilt though! Sorry I was recalling a match today.
The guy isn't shielding though he is attacking, My shield is up and dropping to jab. How did counter get dragged into this? I'm a bit confused on this reply.


why? i can easily just punish you afterwards for using your usmash.
You said fox is in the air shooting lasers though. The Usmash is to punish him. Here Foxes only option is to stall with shine if he is high enough (which he shouldn't be if he is shooting lasers) or air dodge because Usmash goes trough everything its been tested.

From my experience I have managed to drop a bomb no Ike where it hit him out of the aether.

Anyways if I am at the ledge I can try dash shield grabs, baiting and a few other things to try and get by.
guess it could go both ways then, depending on who messes up what. Ike can try all that baiting stuff as well too.


If you shield the Zair you're going to get grabbed immediately afterwards. This has been tested and proven to be true.
For aerials even if they are not multihit moves this proves to be true.
Ground wise as i said earlier they cancel.
Either way you're going to have a tough time getting through the projectiles especially since your movement isn't very high nor is your mobility.
I always thought that if aerial moves clanked both people got hit by it. Someone said this when we where testing out priority but it might be only aerial vs aerial.
Didn't know about the Zair either

I mentioned it as to why his options are lesser .
I guess they are but to me he still has the best option.

No jigglypuff is on the ground. they are always aerial
I meant running as in backing off after an aerial gets shielded.

 

[ShadowLink84]

MK: My apologies, Ike isn’t like MK. Sorry if I gave you any high hopes about anything related between those two;

My apologies but Ike isn't like marth, Luigi or anyone else. you can't pick which ones to answer to and which ones not to.
The point is that Ike's nair is lesser tahn other Nairs.

Marth: Sure. Faster and Multi hit, but weaker, shorter and doesn’t link to true combos;

Much more useful and its faster.

Luigi: Similar to Capt. Falcon’s knee strike, it is hard to land due to his minimal hit box. Its nockback adjusts nicely during the match, but the limited reach and Luigi's characteristic low traction makes it easier to shield grab. DDD can kill him doesn't land it.

I don't understand what you mean with the DDD part.
The minimal hitbox does hurt him but its faster and has high priority to the move.
it can be lead into directly from a Utilt or Uair.

Ike: Long range, auto-cancels, decent damage by its own and can be packed with jab for 25% true combo. Relatively slower.

Looks good for me.

Jab combo can be avoided with DI even at 0%
Start up time and cooldown time are somewhat larger than the others. Has nothing that can lead into it.
Looks bad to me.

I'll help you with MK: Fast, high priority, can kill, no lag can be directly led into from other moves.

We are comparing Nairs we aren't comparing the characters.

Have you read what you just wrote? It is the same as saying “Even so you still have a lag of approximately 6 milliseconds”! Of course Sonic has the advantage over Ike when gimping and recovering, but you are exaggerating it too much.

Besides, shouldn’t we be discussing this in a matchup thread?

I wonder if you are even thinking abut everything else.
You have 3-4 frames of landing lag.
By that time I am already moving towards you.
You can't Sh a Nair you'll get hit before the hitbox crosses in front of you.
Can't SH a Fair since that takes too long to come out as well.
You can toss out a jab but then you run the risk of getting hit b a SH Fair (which comes out before your jab)
You can dodge but depending on who I am using (Sonic as the example currently) it endures too long and can still hit you.

I have many more options than you do in such a situation and all of mine have the ability to counter yours especially because you don't have that many options to work with either.

Bi deal you can autocancel your Nair so can marth but that still doesn't mean he has a large number of options at the ledge.

this was in the jab leading up to moves discussion, how did you end up in the ledge?

it got mixed with an edge guarding discussion

The guy isn't shielding though he is attacking, My shield is up and dropping to jab. How did counter get dragged into this? I'm a bit confused on this reply.

Ik's counter activates on frame 10 powershielding ca be done withint he same time frame. it was a frame comparison since I misread what you meant.

You said fox is in the air shooting lasers though. The Usmash is to punish him. Here Foxes only option is to stall with shine if he is high enough (which he shouldn't be if he is shooting lasers) or air dodge because Usmash goes trough everything its been tested.

Fox is going to laser at SH distance so once you go in for the Usmash he is already on the ground shielding.

I always thought that if aerial moves clanked both people got hit by it. Someone said this when we where testing out priority but it might be only aerial vs aerial.
Didn't know about the Zair either

no, projectiles work with a different set of rules.

I meant running as in backing off after an aerial gets shielded.

Okay n which case she could still avoid it by airdodging since her speed is high enough to not require strict timing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@ dark sonic:Well if the Ike just side steps your grab then you'll end up being grabbed. If he rolls behind you then you have your back to the ledge now.

If you side step the grab I get to roll away/up B before you can do anything (including jab).
If you roll behind me then I just run back towards the stage.

I'm not dash grabbing btw in case that's what you were thinking. It's dash->side B->shield cancel grab, which has faster startup and less ending lag (it's essentially a standing grab+2 frames of startup). You're not grabbing me afterwards even if you side step, and if you roll I may even be able to run back and grab you at the end of it (though I haven't tested this one and it's a bit of a stretch).

And besides it's not like Sonic has trouble getting back to the middle of the stage. Having my back to the ledge is a non-issue, considering my million ways to recover.

 

[Guilhe]

My apologies but Ike isn't like marth, Luigi or anyone else. you can't pick which ones to answer to and which ones not to.
The point is that Ike's nair is lesser tahn other Nairs.

You've picked MK for comparison! Ike’s Nair is good, not that good.

I don't understand what you mean with the DDD part.
The minimal hitbox does hurt him but its faster and has high priority to the move.
it can be lead into directly from a Utilt or Uair.

Luigi needs to be very close to hit with this move and he slides forward slightly when landing, making him easier to shield grab. DDD has a long grab range and can chain grab Luigi.

 

[Deleted member]

Ike can do stuff. He does decently against slower characters, and he doesnt have such a hard time getting past camping. Jab to grab is annoying, and his grabs are good for positioning. Retreating fairs work well against many of the not amazingly fast characters, and can sometimes be hard to punish cuz of his jab.

He does ok against yoshi, cuz yoshi has such a bad shield.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You've picked MK for comparison! Ike’s Nair is good, not that good.

MK's Nair in itself is not extremely amazing either.
It lacks range and doesn't have as much priority as some Nair's like Ike.

Luigi needs to be very close to hit with this move and he slides forward slightly when landing, making him easier to shield grab. DDD has a long grab range and can chain grab Luigi.

he can't CG Luigi he can infinite.
Difference between the two.
if he tries for CG , grab Dthrow dash grab Luigi slides too far away.
if he grabs Dthrow grab he infinites.

Every other nair can be grabbed if the opponent is within range.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Maybe I should stop arguing about the whole Ike vs Sonic thing. It's just going in circles now. And we haven't even gotten to the onstage game yet!

Also, Marth's nair is definately better than Ike's nair dude. And it's even a decent kill move.

But comparing nairs is kinda dificult because they are used for different things. Marth's nair is used for zoning and killing, while Ike's nair is better for approaching and setting up followups. Metaknight and Luigi's nairs are used as combo breakers, Game and Watch's is good for approaches, ect.

I'd personally consider Ike's nair to be a little better than average, I just think the followups when it's shielded or dodged are a little sub par.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Im just arguing generically @_@

 

[c. hood]

Tier list basically tell which character has the best potential!
I love being Captain Falcon!

There also partly a popularity list!

*Puts up flame shield*

 

[rathy Aro]

Tier list basically tell which character has the best potential!
I love being Captain Falcon!

There also partly a popularity list!

*Puts up flame shield*

>.> Bowser's just like the girls on the cheer-leading squad.....

 

[Xyro77]

Tier list basically tell which character has the best potential!
I love being Captain Falcon!

There also partly a popularity list!

*Puts up flame shield*

Incorrect! If it were about popularity : Ike, Sonic, Link, and the PKMN would all be MUCH higher do to there mass amounts in tournies and online.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Incorrect! If it were about popularity : Ike, Sonic, Link, and the PKMN would all be MUCH higher do to there mass amounts in tournies and online.

Only serious tournaments with entry fees are accepted. If it's some small tournament only known to a little forum or group then nobody cares about it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Tier list basically tell which character has the best potential!
I love being Captain Falcon!

There also partly a popularity list!

*Puts up flame shield*

A Shield? I'm a marth main, must... BREAK!

*uses Sheildbreaker*

But yes, popularity does play a factor, because it does affect tournament results, however it's based on a combination of match-ups, potential, and tournament results.

 

[Espionage]

This thread is way too long and dense to look thru and I think that most things have already been brought up before.

I just wanted to know what the current thoughts of the Brawl tier list are? and if the sticky v1.0 is still (mostly) relevant?

 

[ShadowLink84]

The issue though is that characters like Sonic are only popular in small pools and tend to be nearly absent in larger tournaments.

 

[gantrain05]

well, i like sonic, i just dont like him in smash bros. I can't get into his playstyle and im just plain terrible with him. but i got respect for you sonic mains, i don't know how you do it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

We use crack and heroine.

Spoiler

LOLHURRICANEIKE

 

[Dark Sonic]

Spoiler

LOLHURRICANEIKE

I posted that joke like 4 pages ago.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Buzzkill much?

 

[i.E.]

Aderol helps with sonic.

no bull****

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

If you side step the grab I get to roll away/up B before you can do anything (including jab).
If you roll behind me then I just run back towards the stage.

I'm not dash grabbing btw in case that's what you were thinking. It's dash->side B->shield cancel grab, which has faster startup and less ending lag (it's essentially a standing grab+2 frames of startup). You're not grabbing me afterwards even if you side step, and if you roll I may even be able to run back and grab you at the end of it (though I haven't tested this one and it's a bit of a stretch).

And besides it's not like Sonic has trouble getting back to the middle of the stage. Having my back to the ledge is a non-issue, considering my million ways to recover.

You just did 4 moves in 2 frames. Not only is that physically impossible in brawl as each move has to have at least 1 frame of start up and 1 frame of ending lag. Even if brawl was a 120fps game and you could do 4 moves with 1 frame each it is still humanly impossible If you could do things this fast you could make your own perfect control video.

If you want the comparison between MK and Ike's Nair well Ike's is actually better because it has much higher prioty and can be used as a defensive move better than MK's. Also it can stop projectiles unlike MK's. Also combos which I'm guessing MK's does too.

Fox is going to laser at SH distance so once you go in for the Usmash he is already on the ground shielding.

Okay n which case she could still avoid it by airdodging since her speed is high enough to not require strict timing.

Well if fox is SH Ike can just run in and shield grab him. Fox's spamming isn't a problem at most it will get in about 10% before Ike reaches him.

For that jigs thing, you asked what Ike's response was to her aerials she can dodge Ike's but so can he.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually Mks is better imo, less start up but they are different so dont compare them. Mks is basically a killing move with 0 startup lag, ikes is a "i have very little landing lag and will jab you on landing" move lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You just did 4 moves in 2 frames. Not only is that physically impossible in brawl as each move has to have at least 1 frame of start up and 1 frame of ending lag.

You misread me. Standing grab+2 additional frames of startup+whatever amount of time it takes to run into grab range.

Dash (1-however many frames it takes to reach you.)->Initiate side B (1 frame)->Cancel side B with shield (1 frame)->Cancel shield with grab. The point is, it's really fast, and if you do spotdodge it I'm still safe because it was a standing grab, not a dash grab, and I'd be able to roll/spring/whatever away before you could do anything.

If you want the comparison between MK and Ike's Nair well Ike's is actually better because it has much higher prioty and can be used as a defensive move better than MK's. Also it can stop projectiles unlike MK's. Also combos which I'm guessing MK's does too.

Metaknight's can be used to...kill people. It comes out faster, it stays out longer, and has more knockback. Ike's nair is well suited for Ike, which is why I said you can't really make that comparison.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well if fox is SH Ike can just run in and shield grab him. Fox's spamming isn't a problem at most it will get in about 10% before Ike reaches him.

For that jigs thing, you asked what Ike's response was to her aerials she can dodge Ike's but so can he.

I thought the same thing too about Fox but it can actually be a little tricky.
Like Falco he can immediately pull out his reflector and like Wolf's reflector, he has a frame of invincibility. So going for a shield is risky.
Mind you the whole point of Fox's blaster isn't damage, its about baiting.

Ike can dodge jiggly buts he has an easier time just going back and continuing the attack similar to what Wario does. Of course she isn't as solidly built as Wario so Ike has a much easier time but it can be an issue.

If you want the comparison between MK and Ike's Nair well Ike's is actually better because it has much higher prioty and can be used as a defensive move better than MK's. Also it can stop projectiles unlike MK's. Also combos which I'm guessing MK's does too.

No its far from being as good as MK's.
MK's is actually ebtter in terms of defense. IOt doesn't have as high priority it doesn't need to have that much. Its killing power as well as the speed make up for it. So it doesn't cover up as much area it surrounds his body. It can also be led up to from many moves.

 

[viparagon]

DK is neutral at best. 60-40 is more likely.

Sure he has good priority, and kills early, but Mk racks up damage so much faster, and DK doesn't have a safe approach on him.

MK boards have dk as 55-45 in dk's favor. I think they know better

 

[adumbrodeus]

MK boards have dk as 55-45 in dk's favor. I think they know better

Mks tend to have an issue with "jumping into the ****" as Emblem Lord put it. That's why they considered Snake a disadvantage for such a long time.


I've actually pointed this issue out on the MK boards a couple of times, and nobody has been able to adaquetly explain why this match-up is really a DK advantage. He's one of my secondaries, so I occassionally drop by.

Generally, all he has to do is space well, and the match-up shouldn't be a problem. And MK has better spacing tools then DK, and once he's gotten into good spacing, good ways to punish DK for attempting to break the spacing and of course, good ways to punish he for any attack he makes in the spacing.

Sure, DK kills MK early, and has good priority, but if MK just plays in a precise manner, DK just doesn't have enough options.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Agreed with adumbrodeus (BTW where did you get the name?).

I erally cannot see how MK has a disadvantage against DK considering MK is superior in many ways. granted DK does live for a good amount of time but it isn't hard to stop him with your Dair either.

Jumping into the ****, thats a nice term should be used more often.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

MKs weight is a non issue anways. Otherwise he'd have almost only bad match-up's...

 

[ShadowLink84]

Clarify a bit gheb I couldn't follow you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Everytime somebody talks about the DK vs MK match-up, the main reason, why DK is supposed to have the advantage is "because MK is leight".

By that logic, MK has lots of bad match-ups...

...that's pretty much sums it up...

 

[Emblem Lord]

adumbrodeus: I noticed....that you tend repeat what I say...like word for word and then you throw my name in there too.

>_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

adumbrodeus: I noticed....that you tend repeat what I say...like word for word and then you throw my name in there too.

>_>

This may mean that adumbrodeus and Emblem Lord are the same people.
Emblem Lord is trying to gain popularity!

Spoiler

Or Adum is a stalker! DUN DUN DUN!

 

[adumbrodeus]

Agreed with adumbrodeus (BTW where did you get the name?).

It's Latin, I have unusual tastes in names. It means "imperfect God", which I chose because it was a cool-sounding contradiction in both Latin and English.

I erally cannot see how MK has a disadvantage against DK considering MK is superior in many ways. granted DK does live for a good amount of time but it isn't hard to stop him with your Dair either.

Jumping into the ****, thats a nice term should be used more often.

Well, it's not really superiority, plenty of characters have good match-ups against chars that are superior to them.

It's just that in this particular match-up, MK has much better tools for controlling the match, racking up damage, and ultimately killing. Sure DK can kill a LOT earlier, but being able to, and actually doing it against an MK that utilizes the advantage of the match-up are two VERY different things.

So, yeah, glad I'm not the only one outside of the Marth boards that realize this.


Lol, yeah it is, I sort of stole it from Emblem Lord, but it's unfortunately, very good at describing a lot of MK behavior.

adumbrodeus: I noticed....that you tend repeat what I say...like word for word and then you throw my name in there too.

>_>

Nope, I just stole your phrase... and credited it, I don't plagerize, lol.

But realistically, there is only one set of reasons for the match-up being 60-40 MK, so of course they'll be some repitition of reasoning, but I'm pretty sure you never said the exact words of the reasoning.

Anyway if you want a difference of opinion, get into an Ike vs. Zelda debate with me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It was Azen who pioneered the phrase, "Don't jump into the ****".

For the record it wasn't just the d-tilt of MK's that gave him that 60/40 advantage. It was the fact that Marth had no effective way to contain MK or limit his options through zoning.

 

[adumbrodeus]

It was Azen who pioneered the phrase, "Don't jump into the ****".

Ok, I'll remember to credit him in the future. But the reason I was using it in regards to you was the snake vs. MK discussion we had way back on this thread, where you said pretty much that the reason Snakes won against MKs were that MKs jumped into the ****. It's slightly different to tell people not to do it and explain that people are doing it IMO.

For the record it wasn't just the d-tilt of MK's that gave him that 60/40 advantage. It was the fact that Marth had no effective way to contain MK or limit his options through zoning.

From my understanding of the match-up discussion, the superior dtilt range was what absolutely put the final nail in the coffin of Marth's control game against MK. Regardless, it's the truth, zoning and containment issues are the overall reasoning for the match-up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Basically MK is a better Marth. Or rather that is how I view it since much of the strategies for the two are very similar.