Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[~ Gheb ~]

MK is a Marth with "better" properties...he's not the better character by himself - his properties just fit brawl better than Marth does.

 

[popsofctown]

Everytime somebody talks about the DK vs MK match-up, the main reason, why DK is supposed to have the advantage is "because MK is leight".

By that logic, MK has lots of bad match-ups...

...that's pretty much sums it up...

Well, some people often say that some character kills early, and therefore gains advantage against meta knight that way. "That's stupid, killing early helps you beat everyone". Actually, killing early does give you an enhanced advantage against MK. It has to do with the math of the thing.

If you kill MK at 50%, and he kills you at 100%, you rack only half as well as he does (assuming comparable kill games).
If you kill MK at 40%, and he kills you at 120%, you have to rack only a third as well as him.
If you kill MK at 30%, and he kills you at 120%, you only have to rack a third as well as him.

This drastic change isn't possibly with a character as heavy as say, Ness. No one can really kill him much less than say, 50%. So to get to rack only a third as well, you would need to be so heavy that you die only at 150%. And Ness can backthrow just about everyone in the game before that.

The numbers may be slightly off, but basically, killing early helps you against MK because how much better your rack game must be than your opponent is
MK-death%/own-death%. And the low number on top lets you exploit that inverse relationship (if it was linear, it wouldnt be abusable).

Just thought i'd shed some light on this. DK only has to play a fraction as well as MK in his rack game, that's why he wins... not because he meets the bar, the bar has been lowered.

EDIT: I'm on the side that DK is not MK counter.

 

[pridy]

MK has no bad match ups

 

[Zinc Elemental]

MK has no bad match ups

*Facepalms*

 

[Snail]

*Facepalms*

It's true. No need to facepalm (:

 

[Zinc Elemental]

It's true. No need to facepalm (:

I wasn't facepalming at it being wrong. I was facepalming at the "make statement contradicting someone without any support then walking away" aspect of it.

 

[lax guy5]

MK has no bad match ups

Except me.

 

[popsofctown]

hrm, technically he doesn't have to support it, if he's just trying to start discussion. Every matchup is assumed neutral until proven bad, that's the burden of evidence.

And no one can prove him wrong.

MK is the 15 year old pitcher who pretends to be 12 and plays in little league. Yeah, if i'm a 12 year old, i can beat him, if i'm totally awesome. But it's still woefully unfair, and it's depressing to even try to compete with him.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

hrm, technically he doesn't have to support it, if he's just trying to start discussion. Every matchup is assumed neutral until proven bad, that's the burden of evidence

You say he doesn't need proof because you agree with him. I do too, I don't think there are any match-ups worse than 50-50 (or MAYBE 45-55), but he still needs to explain himself since others disagree.

 

[gantrain05]

Ganon > Metaknight >.>

 

[Tianxiazhai]

I dont think that putting Lucas and Ness at the bottom because of Marths Semi infinite chain grab is a good enough reason.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I dont think that putting Lucas and Ness at the bottom because of Marths Semi infinite chain grab is a good enough reason.

Why do you assume that's the only reason? Other characters with similair problems (Wario and DK) are still pretty high.

 

[popsofctown]

You say he doesn't need proof because you agree with him. I do too, I don't think there are any match-ups worse than 50-50 (or MAYBE 45-55), but he still needs to explain himself since others disagree.

I recant, i was in a silly mood.
Yes, randomly running around and saying "MK has no bad matchups" is spam.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I dont think that putting Lucas and Ness at the bottom because of Marths Semi infinite chain grab is a good enough reason.

Prove it. I use Marth and that is what I focus on in this matchup unless I have agreed to not do this. So why do you think this? I think it makes sense, because anyone can pick up Marth for the first time and press grab and the pummel and then dsmash when they are at high percents, so this makes sense.

 

[nitro-blazer]

Prove it. I use Marth and that is what I focus on in this matchup unless I have agreed to not do this. So why do you think this? I think it makes sense, because anyone can pick up Marth for the first time and press grab and the pummel and then dsmash when they are at high percents, so this makes sense.

As someone else said. DK and Wario are infinite grabbed as well by certain characters... they're still high. That's enough proof that the chaingrab isn't the only reason.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

But Wario and DK have more going for them normally then Lucas and Ness. Without the infinite release grabs, DK and Wario would be higher than the Earthbound boys.

 

[gantrain05]

Prove it. I use Marth and that is what I focus on in this matchup unless I have agreed to not do this. So why do you think this? I think it makes sense, because anyone can pick up Marth for the first time and press grab and the pummel and then dsmash when they are at high percents, so this makes sense.

lmao, just try to beat my ness with that strategy, i've beaten so many marths at tourneys who think the matchup is so easy, but really it isn't. and no ness and lucas really shouldn't be that low, they really are some of the hardest characters to actually grab, especially lucas with his spacing abilities its alot harder than u think.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I recant, i was in a silly mood.
Yes, randomly running around and saying "MK has no bad matchups" is spam.

I accept your apology. :-p

But Wario and DK have more going for them normally then Lucas and Ness. Without the infinite release grabs, DK and Wario would be higher than the Earthbound boys.

That was exactly the point. Ness and Lucas are low because they are relatively bad. DK and Wario are high because they are relatively good. The fact that DK and Wario are high shows that infinites don't hold characters back that much, because I couldn't imagine either moving up much at all even without the infinites. Without the infinite, Lucas and Ness would still most likely be low tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There are just better characters then Lucas and Ness.

It's as simple as that.

 

[gantrain05]

jeez, all the put downs on my earthbound boys, they aren't bad characters at all, they just take alot of time to master, just like it takes a while to become good with peach or bowser, its not like metaknight where u can pick up the controller and mash the A button randomly and win.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

they arent bad they just take a lot of time to master.



Well I've never heard THAT before >.>

 

[darkspatan117]

and why Pit is so high in the sbr tier list

 

[gantrain05]

they arent bad they just take a lot of time to master.



Well I've never heard THAT before >.>

says the man with the ganondorf avatar. lol

 

[Zinc Elemental]

jeez, all the put downs on my earthbound boys, they aren't bad characters at all, they just take alot of time to master, just like it takes a while to become good with peach or bowser, its not like metaknight where u can pick up the controller and mash the A button randomly and win.

They're harder to play than average for less pay-off. Same with Yoshi, but Yoshi actually has a lot more potential, imho.

Also, for the record, mashing A usually makes you do your standing-A, which is almost never a good idea.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

says the man with the ganondorf avatar. lol

You haven't heard anything about Ganondorf's isn't bad and is just played poorly come out from me have you?
No?Thats because I think Ganondorf is bad.

Checkmate, I win.

 

[Deleted member]

Ness is very good. I dont see how someone could think he isnt. Hes an overall solid character, high mid imo. Strong aerials, good smashes, pk fire =/ Good matchups in general. Lucas is alright, not as strong as ness but still pretty good.

Also, ness>yoshi. Definately.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Lucas is stronger if you ignore Ness's PKT2.

 

[jiovanni007]

Ness is very good. I dont see how someone could think he isnt. Hes an overall solid character, high mid imo. Strong aerials, good smashes, pk fire =/ Good matchups in general. Lucas is alright, not as strong as ness but still pretty good.

Also, ness>yoshi. Definately.

Ness is better than yoshi, but he still won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Lucas may move up if people actually decide to play him.

As far as Ness goes, he's like a chubby little kid, he's just a little to slow to do anyrhing worthwhile. You say his aerials are good when in actuality, they are average to crap. Well i take that back, fair is amazing, instant start-up IIRC, autocanceling, disjointed, and great range. Nair is a nair, just meh. The rest of his aerials all have a weird start-up that just makes them bad. Not only do they have awkward hitboxes, but they're underwhelmingly powered and difficult to time and hit with. It seems like he has to "wind-up" all of them. Bair got nerfed to oblivion and while easier to hit than teh kn33, is still not that strong. Uair can kill, but is very predictable and easy to dodge due to start-up lag. On the ground he's not that great, bat is slow, yo-yo is not that strong and knocks the opponent far enough back to recompose themselves and his tilts lack range. His projectiles are a bit below average as a whole, Smash DI pwns his PK fire

Lucas to me is like a mid tier GaW. He has disjoints everywhere even though he enters the fight empty-handed. Fair, dair, and nair come out instantly, nair and bair autocancel, uair is quicker than Ness' though still predictable and awkward to hit with, and besides uair, all of his aerials are disjointed. On the ground he still rocks, great ftilt an utilt, great fsmash and dsmash, and decent jab (kick lolwut???) combo. PK fire is amazing, PK thunder is amazing, PK freeze is trash, PSI magnet is amazing. Lucas has potential, but shouldn't be ranked to high as of now since he can't back up his claims, but when the low tier tournies start, I know that he'll truly begin to shine.

 

[gantrain05]

Ness is better than yoshi, but he still won't be going anywhere anytime soon. Lucas may move up if people actually decide to play him.

As far as Ness goes, he's like a chubby little kid, he's just a little to slow to do anyrhing worthwhile. You say his aerials are good when in actuality, they are average to crap. Well i take that back, fair is amazing, instant start-up IIRC, autocanceling, disjointed, and great range. Nair is a nair, just meh. The rest of his aerials all have a weird start-up that just makes them bad. Not only do they have awkward hitboxes, but they're underwhelmingly powered and difficult to time and hit with. It seems like he has to "wind-up" all of them. Bair got nerfed to oblivion and while easier to hit than teh kn33, is still not that strong. Uair can kill, but is very predictable and easy to dodge due to start-up lag. On the ground he's not that great, bat is slow, yo-yo is not that strong and knocks the opponent far enough back to recompose themselves and his tilts lack range. His projectiles are a bit below average as a whole, Smash DI pwns his PK fire

Lucas to me is like a mid tier GaW. He has disjoints everywhere even though he enters the fight empty-handed. Fair, dair, and nair come out instantly, nair and bair autocancel, uair is quicker than Ness' though still predictable and awkward to hit with, and besides uair, all of his aerials are disjointed. On the ground he still rocks, great ftilt an utilt, great fsmash and dsmash, and decent jab (kick lolwut???) combo. PK fire is amazing, PK thunder is amazing, PK freeze is trash, PSI magnet is amazing. Lucas has potential, but shouldn't be ranked to high as of now since he can't back up his claims, but when the low tier tournies start, I know that he'll truly begin to shine.

lol, funny, awkward hitboxes doesn't mean bad wow, it just means learn the character better, and no his Uair does not have a weird startup lag wtf are you talking about, its pretty much instant and ko's better than most Uairs, and his Bair is incredibly easy to connect with, and its not nerfed, the properties on it were changed just like his Bthrow, and how dare you insult the yoyos, the best mindgame smash ever, not to mention his kickass spike, as for lucas, he's alright but he's nowhere near ness.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, fair is one of the best aerials in the game. Nair is good, very fast, goodish priority, dair is the 2nd strongest spike in the game and the startup is actually pretty interesting because when u do a rising dair, the dair spikes as your reach the peak of your jump. Bair is pretty good, not amazing, it did get teh nerfed in power, but its a good situational move. Uair is just an uair, nothin special, pretty strong.

Ness>lucas(i play lucas, and ness is definately better).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ness is a better fighter but that doesn't mean everything in Brawl. Lucas has better properties, which matters more, unfortunately...

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Ness is a better fighter but that doesn't mean everything in Brawl. Lucas has better properties, which matters more, unfortunately...

Ummm, would you care to distinguish between those too? Are you refering to recovery as something seperate from fighting?

This is a fighting game, so I'd consider that fairly important.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

lmao, just try to beat my ness with that strategy, i've beaten so many marths at tourneys who think the matchup is so easy, but really it isn't. and no ness and lucas really shouldn't be that low, they really are some of the hardest characters to actually grab, especially lucas with his spacing abilities its alot harder than u think.

I know that! I never said Ness or Lucas were bad, and I agree, Lucas can be hard to grab, but you can't deny that Lucas and Ness would be better if Marth could not infinite them, and where did I say that this was an easy matchup? I didn't and that is because I don't think this is an easy matchup, I think that it is just made a hell of a lot easier by the fact that Marth has an infinite on them. But in this matchup, I use grab to punish instead of DS out of shield, I'll shieldgrab if they try to touch my shield.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ummm, would you care to distinguish between those too? Are you refering to recovery as something seperate from fighting?

This is a fighting game, so I'd consider that fairly important.

I mean, there's a differnce between the "qualitly" of certain moves (which is where Ness wins imo) and other stuff like: wieght, speed...

Lucas has better spd and a better recovery, even though Ness has the better moveset

 

[jiovanni007]

Still not sure why so many people think that Ness is better than Lucas, I just made a huge wall-o-text as to why Lucas is the better choice. Ness is bad in the air and Lucas Rocks in the air. If you think Ness doesn't have any start-up on his uair, try doing one going into someone with a multi-hit dair. Yeah that's a bad example and I have no idea how that would prove anything, but I'm far to lazy to look for the debug data. Also Lucas' moveset is miles better than Ness. Lucas also isn't gimped by someone jumping into his PK Thunder. He does win in grabs since Lucas struggles to grab someone and when he does, they're a bit underwhelming.

Ness has an amazing fair, a decent nair, and a usable dair. Yo-yo is meh, bat is too slow, tilts don't go far enough and his dash attack is decent.

Lucas has a huge arsenal since almost all of his moves are usable. Bair and nair autocancel, nair easily chains into utilt if you ff so the last hit doesn't come out. Fair is all around good range, speed and priority. His projectiles and ground attacks are way better. Not sure how people can even begin to believe that Ness has the better moveset when Lucas has fair, dair, bair, nair, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash, >B, ^B and VB at his disposal.

 

[Blackbelt]

Still not sure why so many people think that Ness is better than Lucas, I just made a huge wall-o-text as to why Lucas is the better choice. Ness is bad in the air and Lucas Rocks in the air. If you think Ness doesn't have any start-up on his uair, try doing one going into someone with a multi-hit dair. Yeah that's a bad example and I have no idea how that would prove anything, but I'm far to lazy to look for the debug data. Also Lucas' moveset is miles better than Ness. Lucas also isn't gimped by someone jumping into his PK Thunder. He does win in grabs since Lucas struggles to grab someone and when he does, they're a bit underwhelming.

Ness has an amazing fair, a decent nair, and a usable dair. Yo-yo is meh, bat is too slow, tilts don't go far enough and his dash attack is decent.

Lucas has a huge arsenal since almost all of his moves are usable. Bair and nair autocancel, nair easily chains into utilt if you ff so the last hit doesn't come out. Fair is all around good range, speed and priority. His projectiles and ground attacks are way better. Not sure how people can even begin to believe that Ness has the better moveset when Lucas has fair, dair, bair, nair, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash, >B, ^B and VB at his disposal.

Dude, WTF is wrong with you!?!?!?!?!?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Still not sure why so many people think that Ness is better than Lucas, I just made a huge wall-o-text as to why Lucas is the better choice. Ness is bad in the air and Lucas Rocks in the air. If you think Ness doesn't have any start-up on his uair, try doing one going into someone with a multi-hit dair. Yeah that's a bad example and I have no idea how that would prove anything, but I'm far to lazy to look for the debug data. Also Lucas' moveset is miles better than Ness. Lucas also isn't gimped by someone jumping into his PK Thunder. He does win in grabs since Lucas struggles to grab someone and when he does, they're a bit underwhelming.

Ness has an amazing fair, a decent nair, and a usable dair. Yo-yo is meh, bat is too slow, tilts don't go far enough and his dash attack is decent.

Lucas has a huge arsenal since almost all of his moves are usable. Bair and nair autocancel, nair easily chains into utilt if you ff so the last hit doesn't come out. Fair is all around good range, speed and priority. His projectiles and ground attacks are way better. Not sure how people can even begin to believe that Ness has the better moveset when Lucas has fair, dair, bair, nair, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash, >B, ^B and VB at his disposal.

Ness' PK Fiyyahr > Lucas' Big Gay Fiyur.
Offensively, Ness' PKT2 is better than Lucas', but recovery wise it obviously isn't.

Ness just flows a lot easier from my experience. His aerial attacks at lower percents link into each other better. Say if you PK Fire to dash attack, jump, uair, rising uair then nair that's like 70% right of the bat, and I've achieved stuff like that against good players and such.
I just find Lucas worse than Ness in the air, but on ground Lucas fares slightly better. I don't rate Lucas' Up or Down Smash much (for lag and such) but Fsmash is a killer. Lucas' jab is better and his tilts are marginally better but IMO kinda function in the same way as Ness'.
I don't really like comparing the two. I just find Ness a little better again because he flows a bit better. I can't really syliloquise that any other way, it's hard to explain for me.

Edit : I didn't realise that you put that Ness has a bad air game! D:
Shame on you sir.

 

[Deleted member]

Bair isnt usable unless as edgeguard. Fair is laggyish. Ness' fair>everyone one of lucas' aerials. His nair is very good, but small range means soem characters will make it hard to approach with.

Lucas has better jabs and tilts and fsmash, but thats pretty much it.

 

[Blackbelt]

Bair isnt usable unless as edgeguard. Fair is laggyish. Ness' fair>everyone one of lucas' aerials. His nair is very good, but small range means soem characters will make it hard to approach with.

Lucas has better jabs and tilts and fsmash, but thats pretty much it.

Recovery. Lucas definately has better recovery, and that means alot in a few matchups.

 

[Mmac]

I think Lucas's PK Fire is better than Ness's PK Fire actually. Yeah, it traps, but it's a ground based projectile only, which limits his use greatly. Plus it deals with Shorthops really well, which is usually the most common approach. Plus the Knockback of the Wave and the pushback helps with avoiding counterattacks

Lucas also has a Yoshi style Pivot grab, but doesn't work as well, especially since Lucas actually has a OOS to use for defence. Still something I would like for Lucas mains to use more though