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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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jiovanni007

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Ness' PK Fiyyahr > Lucas' Big Gay Fiyur.
Offensively, Ness' PKT2 is better than Lucas', but recovery wise it obviously isn't.

Ness just flows a lot easier from my experience. His aerial attacks at lower percents link into each other better. Say if you PK Fire to dash attack, jump, uair, rising uair then nair that's like 70% right of the bat, and I've achieved stuff like that against good players and such.
I just find Lucas worse than Ness in the air, but on ground Lucas fares slightly better. I don't rate Lucas' Up or Down Smash much (for lag and such) but Fsmash is a killer. Lucas' jab is better and his tilts are marginally better but IMO kinda function in the same way as Ness'.
I don't really like comparing the two. I just find Ness a little better again because he flows a bit better. I can't really syliloquise that any other way, it's hard to explain for me.

Edit : I didn't realise that you put that Ness has a bad air game! D:
Shame on you sir.
No, Ness' PK Fire isn't better than Lucas' at all. Ness' gets owned by smash DI, this alleged combo you speak of would never work against players who know how to DI properly. Ness' air game is not good, fair is amazing, but everything else is meh. His nair while instant, doesn't have great range and he'll still get hit when he uses it, its mostly a defensive option to prevent aerial ****-age. His dair is situational and can still nipple if not hit at the right time or right spot. Bair doesn't kill as well as it used to and is really not that great of an option. Uair is meh as well, though strong, it has start-up lag. In case everyone here doesn't know, moves with start-up lag give the opponent the opportunity to air dodge (assuming that they're in the air) and good players will do this instead of taking a hit.

Lucas in the air is much better. Fair may not be as good as Ness', but it comes out quickly and is disjointed. Nair is much better than Ness', it autocancels and its disjointed. Bair is still bad, but probably not as bad as Ness', it autocancels and spikes. Before you cry about how hard it is to hit with the spike, look at Ness' spike and stfu, they're both hard to hit with but some players can make them work sometimes. I would say Lucas' bair > Ness' Dair since Ness' dair gets owned by air dodging, whereas Lucas' bair owns air dodging. Uair is still bad, though Lucas' is quicker, but lacks the hit trajectory and KO power of Ness'. OTG, there is no discussion, Lucas wins.
 

Blackbelt

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No, Ness' PK Fire isn't better than Lucas' at all. Ness' gets owned by smash DI, this alleged combo you speak of would never work against players who know how to DI properly. Ness' air game is not good, fair is amazing, but everything else is meh. His nair while instant, doesn't have great range and he'll still get hit when he uses it, its mostly a defensive option to prevent aerial ****-age. His dair is situational and can still nipple if not hit at the right time or right spot. Bair doesn't kill as well as it used to and is really not that great of an option. Uair is meh as well, though strong, it has start-up lag. In case everyone here doesn't know, moves with start-up lag give the opponent the opportunity to air dodge (assuming that they're in the air) and good players will do this instead of taking a hit.

Lucas in the air is much better. Fair may not be as good as Ness', but it comes out quickly and is disjointed. Nair is much better than Ness', it autocancels and its disjointed. Bair is still bad, but probably not as bad as Ness', it autocancels and spikes. Before you cry about how hard it is to hit with the spike, look at Ness' spike and stfu, they're both hard to hit with but some players can make them work sometimes. I would say Lucas' bair > Ness' Dair since Ness' dair gets owned by air dodging, whereas Lucas' bair owns air dodging. Uair is still bad, though Lucas' is quicker, but lacks the hit trajectory and KO power of Ness'. OTG, there is no discussion, Lucas wins.


I main Lucas, I run a matchup discussion, and I'd to think I'm good with Lucas.


It is with this in mind that I say the following:



You are so full of it.
 

jiovanni007

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I main Lucas, I run a matchup discussion, and I'd to think I'm good with Lucas.


It is with this in mind that I say the following:



You are so full of it.
Sorry, I stated reasons. Without any sort of reasoning you have no clout to say that I'm full of it. Using your logic, I can say that Kirby is the best character in the game with no competition simply because I main him and I as well have a detailed match-up thread about him. Your post is full of phailure.
 

gantrain05

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Still not sure why so many people think that Ness is better than Lucas, I just made a huge wall-o-text as to why Lucas is the better choice. Ness is bad in the air and Lucas Rocks in the air. If you think Ness doesn't have any start-up on his uair, try doing one going into someone with a multi-hit dair. Yeah that's a bad example and I have no idea how that would prove anything, but I'm far to lazy to look for the debug data. Also Lucas' moveset is miles better than Ness. Lucas also isn't gimped by someone jumping into his PK Thunder. He does win in grabs since Lucas struggles to grab someone and when he does, they're a bit underwhelming.

Ness has an amazing fair, a decent nair, and a usable dair. Yo-yo is meh, bat is too slow, tilts don't go far enough and his dash attack is decent.

Lucas has a huge arsenal since almost all of his moves are usable. Bair and nair autocancel, nair easily chains into utilt if you ff so the last hit doesn't come out. Fair is all around good range, speed and priority. His projectiles and ground attacks are way better. Not sure how people can even begin to believe that Ness has the better moveset when Lucas has fair, dair, bair, nair, ftilt, utilt, dsmash, fsmash, >B, ^B and VB at his disposal.
wtf are you talking about dude, ness ****ing ***** lucas in arial combat, yoyos DON'T suck just because you suck with them, and their pk fires are for different situations, and NO Uair does not have some kind of huge startup lag wtf man. multi hit Dairs don't mean ****, the game is about spacing, and if your a ness main you know how to space your Uair, lucas doesn't really have any approaches, he has to pk fire spam and make someone approach, and when they get there he doesn't really have many options for the speedier characters, at least ness can approach with his Fair and cannot be shield grabbed if done right, oh and not to mention Ness's spike is one of the best spikes in teh game.
 

Blackbelt

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Sorry, I stated reasons. Without any sort of reasoning you have no clout to say that I'm full of it. Using your logic, I can say that Kirby is the best character in the game with no competition simply because I main him and I as well have a detailed match-up thread about him. Your post is full of phailure.
Let's compare:


Fair to Fair: Easily Lucas' worst Aerial, and the spammable of Ness' aerials. Lucas' range sucks, and the hitbox is small. Ness' is pwnage.

Bair to Bair: Both of these hold the same purpose: Edgeguarding. However, the effectiveness of these moves differ on the match. I'd say equal.

Dair to Dair: Lucas' is a multihit comboer, while Ness' is amongst the best spikes in the game. I would be more than willing to give up Lucas' Dair for Ness' Dair

Uair to Uair: I honestly see these as equal.

Nair to Nair: Lucas' best aerial, and a very good aerial for Ness. It's an incredible defensive option for Ness, and it's the damage builder for Lucas. Lucas wins here.


So as far as aerials, it's 2 for Ness, 1 for Lucas, and 2 ties.


Oh, and let's not forget that Ness' Fair is >>>>>>>>>>>>any aerial Lucas has.
 

ROOOOY!

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Yet his dair is hard to spike with Gantrain.

Lucas is incredibly inferior to Ness in the air. If we're comparing moves, the only one that Lucas has that's better than Ness' is nair. Maybe.
Ness' dair is better.
Ness' bair is better.
Ness' fair is better.
Ness' uair is maybe a little better.
 

Mmac

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I think Ness's Dair is overrated. Yeah, it's powerful, but it's just too easy to see coming, and easily predictable. I can only see it being useful against a few recoveries that are linear or stiff, but thats it. I can't even see it being used as a regular attack.

I prefer Lucas's better because you could actually hit with it, even though the spike is hard to do and physically weak.


But I still agree that Ness Aerials >>>>>>>>>> Lucas's Aerials
 

Zinc Elemental

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Sorry, I stated reasons. Without any sort of reasoning you have no clout to say that I'm full of it. Using your logic, I can say that Kirby is the best character in the game with no competition simply because I main him and I as well have a detailed match-up thread about him. Your post is full of phailure.
You haven't been reading the thread, have you? I think there have been some **** good counter-arguments to what you said.

When you make ridiculous statements such as that Ness' air game is bad, that's when they no longer even need to try to counter your argument.

You know what though? They have. Read what everyone has posted, stop making up reasons to insist that you're right, and just use common sense whenever you argue in the future.
 

gantrain05

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Yet his dair is hard to spike with Gantrain.

Lucas is incredibly inferior to Ness in the air. If we're comparing moves, the only one that Lucas has that's better than Ness' is nair. Maybe.
Ness' dair is better.
Ness' bair is better.
Ness' fair is better.
Ness' uair is maybe a little better.
i don't know, what your talking about, ness's Dair is not hard to connect with, i actually probably get like 70% of my kills with it and i don't play with a bunch of noobs, maybe you guys need to practice up on your ness skills before saying his Dair is crap.
 

ROOOOY!

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i don't, know, what you're talking, about either because your, grammar is all over the, place and there, are, commas, everywhere.

And good on you if you can spike with Ness' dair. I tend to play against people who can read a game/airdodge, y'know >_>
 

Snowstalker

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GOD:

Meta Knight

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
Marth
R.O.B

HIGH:

Wario
Lucario
Olimar
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Toon Link
Pit

MID:

Zelda
Peach
Fox
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Mario
Lucas
Shiek
Bowser

LOW:

Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Samus
Ike
Jigglypuff
Link

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
 

ChronoPenguin

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Bruce Lee tier:

Meta Knight

TOP:

Snake
Falco
King Dedede
Mr G&W
Wario

HIGH:

Marth
R.O.B
Lucario
Olimar
Kirby
Diddy Kong
pikachu
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Pit

MID:

Toon Link - Doing poorly
Peach
Fox
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda - doing poorly
Mario
Lucas
Ness - doing poorly
Pokemon Trainer - Doing better than expected of him.

LOW:

Bowser - same results as yoshi
Yoshi - same results as bowser
Sheik
Samus
Ike
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Link

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Craptain Failcon, XII


IMO it was either put yoshi in Mid with Bowser since there results are the same at the moment, or bring Bowser down, yoshi bashers still exist so Bowser came down.
Zelda and Toon Link aren't where they are expected to be, there expected to do better but there not, especially Zelda.
 

Gindler

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Good but severely over-rated tier:

Meta Knight

TOP:

Snake
D3
G&W
Falco
Marth

HIGH:

ROB
Wario
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Kirby
pikachu
Donkey Kong
Pit
Ice Climbers
Wolf

MID:

Toon Link
Fox
Luigi
Zelda
ZSS
Mario
Peach
Bowser
Lucas
Ness

LOW:

PT
Yoshi
Ike
Sheik
Samus
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Link

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Craptain Failcon
 

powell651234

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Really Good
Meta Knight

Good
Snake
DeDeDe
Falco

Decent
Everyone else

Bad
Jiggs
Ganon
C.Falcon

HOnestly, Brawl is hecka balanced, the more I play the more I realize... Heck I just watched Tudor (Samus) beat the second best Falco in the US (Seth)
 

Judge Judy

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Link isn't that bad but he's really slow, and has a predictable recovery. He gets ***** by most characters that are faster in the air and on the ground than him. At least Link has good projectiles.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Link would be fine with a decent recovery, and Hook shot.

not Super Tier mind up, but stable, Link cannot effectively go in to gimp anybody >.> best he can do is hug against Olimar, Ivy and Zero fail Samus (Zero fail is a good thing)
 

Gindler

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I still think Ness is better than Lucas...he's my second and he has better mindgames anyway, most people agree he isn't as "nooby" friendly (don't get why though)


Well someone said Link was bad, but no one said mewtwo was bad so no clue why he was brought up. But yeah, people like Taj and Fumi gave crap characters at least some rep back in the day...so they're always be exceptions to the rule...
 

Kiwikomix

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Just wanted to say I posted on page 1000.

And yes, unless those one or two good people discover something great about a character and abuse it, there's not really a chance that they make a difference, since all those usual people that are mentioned (Taj, Fumi, Gimpy, etc.) didn't make their characters out of bottom tier, nor did they use them in tournaments because they understood their characters' faults.
 

adumbrodeus

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Just wanted to say I posted on page 1000.

And yes, unless those one or two good people discover something great about a character and abuse it, there's not really a chance that they make a difference, since all those usual people that are mentioned (Taj, Fumi, Gimpy, etc.) didn't make their characters out of bottom tier, nor did they use them in tournaments because they understood their characters' faults.
QFT

It does happen that sometimes something great is discovered about a character, turning it from a low tier to a high tier (Ken's Marth in melee for example), but generally, one or two or three people who are good with a character do not result in a changed status.
 

The Slayer

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Wow, this is almost 1000 pages!
Actually, it's 500th for me since I double the view postings for my account. :psycho:

Anyway, I still wouldn't bet too much money on Deva's Link regardless since Link does have some bad match-ups against at least half of the cast, mainly aerial dominating characters.
 

~ Gheb ~

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p.1000 yay!

There are too many reasons, why a player can score well with a low tier character,ONCE. If he is really better, than the tier list shows, that player either is extraordinary silled or ... the tier list is wrong.
 

ROOOOY!

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People can surprise with low tier because in tournaments everyone's used to playing MK vs Snake, Falco vs MK etc. And as soon as they face a Fox/Sonic/whatever, inexperience in such match-up can bite them in the ***.

And I just posted on page 1000 =D
 

Blackbelt

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p.1000 yay!

There are too many reasons, why a player can score well with a low tier character,ONCE. If he is really better, than the tier list shows, that player either is extraordinary silled or ... the tier list is wrong.
You also need to remember the individual matchups. They play a really big part in Brawl.
 

AlexX

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People can surprise with low tier because in tournaments everyone's used to playing MK vs Snake, Falco vs MK etc. And as soon as they face a Fox/Sonic/whatever, inexperience in such match-up can bite them in the ***.
Similarly, people can surprise at a tournament by playing well with a character everyone else generally considers to be either bad or an "easy win" like Ike or Yoshi.

Also, pg. 1000 post
 

AlexX

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^ Leave Ike out of the sentence and you're 100% spot-on
Ike is very viable, and the fact every character (including Jiggly and Ganondorf) considers him to be their easiest matchup make it even easier for a highly skilled one to come up and surprise them.
 

Gindler

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^^He was brought up to say that you can't use a few really good players to say that a character is good.
Ah, that's what I figured

QFT

It does happen that sometimes something great is discovered about a character, turning it from a low tier to a high tier (Ken's Marth in melee for example), but generally, one or two or three people who are good with a character do not result in a changed status.
Was Marth seriously low tier at one point? I don't believe it.

Similarly, people can surprise at a tournament by playing well with a character everyone else generally considers to be either bad or an "easy win" like Ike or Yoshi.

Also, pg. 1000 post
Yeah, having lots of snakes and MKs to fight actually gives lesser played characters like ike or yoshi a little more edge
 
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