Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[AlexX]

Yeah, having lots of snakes and MKs to fight actually gives lesser played characters like ike or yoshi a little more edge

It's not just that they're lesser-played, it's also that good ones are hard to come by.

 

[SaiX]

OMFG!!!! 1001 PAGES!!!

o.O

 

[Judge Judy]

I've got a good question, why is Ness higher than Mario? Ness has far more weakness than Mario.

 

[powell651234]

Really Good
Meta Knight

Good
Snake
DeDeDe
Falco

Decent
Everyone else

Bad
Jiggs
Ganon
C.Falcon

This is the best tier list out there, I'm telling you, we have seen what Deva's Link can do. Yes Link has almost ZERO gimping game, both offensively and defensively. But he has a good combination of speed, priority and power. You want to tell me that Link's Triple A attack is slow, how about his dashing attack, or even his down smash. The projectiles are great aswell. A good Link player makes it work. If you look at at the middle of the tier list, I feel the matchups are all to close to differentiate. I like a great Samus' chances (Tudor) against a great DK...and yet they are so far apart on the list.

Calm down folks, Brawl is balanced, way moreso than Melee.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Calm down folks, Brawl is balanced, way moreso than Melee.

I lol'ed at this sentiment.

Keep this to a Brawl tier discussion, Powell. Unless you want five bajillion other people (like myself) proving you wrong with about seven years worth of Melee data.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thee Incubus]

Unless you want five bajillion other people (like myself) proving you wrong with about seven years worth of Melee data.

Smooth Criminal

lolz
Right there with ya.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

I've got a good question, why is Ness higher than Mario? Ness has far more weakness than Mario.

Why do you think that?

 

[Judge Judy]

Ness's recovery is far easier to intercept than Mario's. Has an even worse infinite against him than Mario does. His follow ups are not as good as Mario's. The only thing Ness has on Mario is a bit more kill power and a few more disjointed hitboxes. I've played good Nesses and I still don't understand why he's higher than Mario.

 

[Mmac]

Ness's recovery is far easier to intercept than Mario's.

I disagree. Most cases his Double Jump is enough to make it back, and just like Yoshi, he can Airdodge and still carry the momentum of the Double Jump, making it pretty hard to intercept. Granted that his UpB is very easy to gimp, the same can be said for Mario, who doesn't have a great double jump to back it up.

Has an even worse infinite against him than Mario does.

Dedede, Marth, Who cares? You're both screwed anyways. I say Mario is worst off judging from the Tier List. Not to mention that Dedede is a grab happy character also.

His follow ups are not as good as Mario's. The only thing Ness has on Mario is a bit more kill power and a few more disjointed hitboxes. I've played good Nesses and I still don't understand why he's higher than Mario.

Can't really comment because I don't really touch Ness (I prefer Lucas). I'm going to let a Ness Main answer this

 

[Judge Judy]

Well I'm just looking for answers and no one has really given any. It just doesn't make sense, I'm not saying Ness should be lower but I am wondering why Mario is below him.

I disagree. Most cases his Double Jump is enough to make it back, and just like Yoshi, he can Airdodge and still carry the momentum of the Double Jump, making it pretty hard to intercept. Granted that his UpB is very easy to gimp, the same can be said for Mario, who doesn't have a great double jump to back it up.

Both their recoveries are average, but can you honsetly say Mario is easier to gimp than Ness? I know you aren't really saying that but you seem to be leaning towards Ness having a better recovery than Mario. Ness's recovery is longer than Mario's but easier to edgeguard against. Ness can cancel his DJ in an Fair or airdodge, but he really doesn't have any other antiedgeguard tehniques other than that. He could try PK Fire but isn't quite spammable enough to really protect him. Ness's Up B is far easier to gimp than Mario's, just interupt his projectile and he can't do anything. Mario's Up B can only really be gimped through well timed edgehogging. Mario has for more defenses offstage such as fireballs, FLUDD, and the cape.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Mario's low knock is a big reason he's held back. Forward smash is Mario's only truly good KO move. The rest are pretty weak when compared to other characters. When you have to focus on one attack, it becomes a lot easier to predict and avoid it. Mario's jumps and recovery don't allow him to do much edge guarding to make up for it either. He has to rely on his spike, cape and FLUDD to kill at decent percentages and those gimping tools are useless against characters with great recoveries. A lot of top and high tier characters have great recoveries.

tl;dr: Mario's bad at killing and can't edge guard well like Meta Knight to make up for it.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario's low knock is a big reason he's held back. Forward smash is Mario's only truly good KO move. The rest are pretty weak when compared to other characters. When you have to focus on one attack, it becomes a lot easier to predict and avoid it. Mario's jumps and recovery don't allow him to do much edge guarding to make up for it either. He has to rely on his spike, cape and FLUDD to kill at decent percentages and those gimping tools are useless against characters with great recoveries. A lot of top and high tier characters have great recoveries.

tl;dr: Mario's bad at killing and can't edge guard well like Meta Knight to make up for it.

What are you talking about, the cape glide gives Mario tons of aerial edgeguarding options. Mario can edgeguard extremely well if you've mastered the cape glide. But he does lack KO power, at least his foward smash has incredible range.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Mario's cape does very little agianst characters like Kirby, Meta Knight, Pit, R.O.B and Dedede

All top/high tier characters.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario's cape does very little agianst characters like Kirby, Meta Knight, Pit, R.O.B and Dedede

All top/high tier characters.

You know what the cape glide is right? Do you know the applications of the cape glide?

 

[PrinceMarthX]

How exactly does cape gliding help when the opponent can use their jumps or recovery to go so high you can't reach them?

 

[Judge Judy]

How exactly does cape gliding help when the opponent can use their jumps or recovery to so high you can't reach them?

That's the problem with edgeguarding in general though. That's a good point but that's not really a "Mario unique" weakness. If you recover very high like use R.O.B.'s boost to the top of the screen, then yah no one's probally going to be able to edgeguard you. The point is Mario can edgeguard very well and can more often than not, setup reliable gimps. Mario edgeguards extremely well compared to the majority of the cast.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario edgeguards extremely well compared to the majority of the cast.

Marth, King Dedede, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Metaknight, Falco, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch and Pit would all like to have a word with you

 

[Dark Sonic]

As well as Sonic, Toon Link, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Shiek, Charizard, and Wario.

 

[Gindler]

And...Yoshi, believe it or not.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ness's recovery is far easier to intercept than Mario's. Has an even worse infinite against him than Mario does. His follow ups are not as good as Mario's. The only thing Ness has on Mario is a bit more kill power and a few more disjointed hitboxes. I've played good Nesses and I still don't understand why he's higher than Mario.

The up-b is somewhat easier to gimp but he makes up for it by a good double jump.


Also, DDD is worse to be infinited by.


And you forgot Ness' ridiculous fair, which Mario definately doesn't have, a beautiful safe poking move.

And don't forget bair and backthrow with their ridiculous DI-defying kill power.

Was Marth seriously low tier at one point? I don't believe it.

It's true, the fair went almost totally unnoticed before Ken, and he was basically regulated to F-smash spamming.

Then Ken figured out, "hey, why not try SHFFling Marth's air game" instead of just relying on his ground game. And suddenly Marth became beastly.

 

[gantrain05]

And...Yoshi, believe it or not.

and ness, lucas, peach, pikachu, and GANONDORF!. sorry, that Dair is too good to pass up.

 

[Xiivi]

It's true, the fair went almost totally unnoticed before Ken, and he was basically regulated to F-smash spamming.

Then Ken figured out, "hey, why not try SHFFling Marth's air game" instead of just relying on his ground game. And suddenly Marth became beastly.

Quit spewing complete lies. Yes, Ken greatly changed Marth's metagame for the better. However, in every tier list Marth was in the top 5. The worst Marth was ever ranked was 7th, and that was on the April Fool's tier list. In all eight incarnations of the tier list, Marth was Top 5.

The Top 5 was always some order of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach with exception of the first tier list where Peach was not in the Top 5.

Marth has never even been close to Low Tier. It's true what you said about Ken revolutionizing Marth, but don't try to say he suddenly made Marth leap from Low Tier to where he is today. -_-;;

 

[adumbrodeus]

Quit spewing complete lies. Yes, Ken greatly changed Marth's metagame for the better. However, in every tier list Marth was in the top 5. The worst Marth was ever ranked was 7th, and that was on the April Fool's tier list. In all eight incarnations of the tier list, Marth was Top 5.

The Top 5 was always some order of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach with exception of the first tier list where Peach was not in the Top 5.

Marth has never even been close to Low Tier. It's true what you said about Ken revolutionizing Marth, but don't try to say he suddenly made Marth leap from Low Tier to where he is today. -_-;;

Really?

I initially started smash right before Ken really hit the scene and got the impression that everyone considered Marth pretty much gutter trash, little more then Roy with a different, just as useless sweet spot.

Hanging out with the wrong crowd back then perhaps?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth was always considered good, it's just that Shieks kept shutting him down.
But if you want revolutionary, you can look at Ice Climbers or Jigglypuff.
If you want the biggest falls, you could look at Mario (he was top tier in the first tier list. lol)

 

[Xiivi]

Really?

I initially started smash right before Ken really hit the scene and got the impression that everyone considered Marth pretty much gutter trash, little more then Roy with a different, just as useless sweet spot.

Hanging out with the wrong crowd back then perhaps?

Very first tier list from October 2002:
* 4.9: Sheik
* 4.8: Falco, Fox
* 4.4: Marth
* 4.1: Mario
* 4.0: Zelda, Samus, Luigi
* 3.9: Peach
* 3.8: Dr. Mario
* 3.5: Ice Climbers, Ganondorf
* 3.4: Pikachu, Link
* 3.2: Captain Falcon, Young Link
* 3.1: Jigglypuff, Ness
* 2.9: Yoshi, Donkey Kong
* 2.8: Roy
* 2.1: Kirby
* 1.8: Mr. Game and Watch
* 1.6: Pichu, Bowser
* 1.3: Mewtwo

The following Tier List, Peach broke into the Top 5 and the Top 5 only changed in order since then.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ahh the days where Link was mid tier. *sniffle*

 

[Matador]

Marth, King Dedede, Diddy Kong, Kirby, Metaknight, Falco, ROB, Mr. Game and Watch and Pit would all like to have a word with you

As well as Sonic, Toon Link, Lucario, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff, Shiek, Charizard, and Wario.

And...Yoshi, believe it or not.

I'd omit all of the bolded from the list of "Hard to edgeguard and/or Gimp for Mario". Kirby, Diddy, Marth, Shiek, Donkey Kong, Charizard, and TL are especially easy. The remaining bolded are difficult, but no where near "Not gimpable" status. The rest Mario can just rack up damage during their recovery, but can't really gimp.

*Goes to read the rest of the Mario BS in the thread*

Edit: I misread the posts, but what I've said is still relevant. Mario can gimp Most of the cast because he's practically bred for it. He's the only character that can reliably gimp the spacies and can actually gimp ROB (aside from MK of course).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ Wtf. Learn to read, dude

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'd omit all of the bolded from the list of "Hard to edgeguard and/or Gimp for Mario". Kirby, Diddy, Marth, Shiek, Donkey Kong, Charizard, and TL are especially easy. The remaining bolded are difficult, but no where near "Not gimpable" status. The rest Mario can just rack up damage during their recovery, but can't really gimp.

*Goes to read the rest of the Mario BS in the thread*

Edit: I misread the posts, but what I've said is still relevant. Mario can gimp Most of the cast because he's practically bred for it. He's the only character that can reliably gimp the spacies and can actually gimp ROB (aside from MK of course).

Uhh..actually, these were characters who could edgeguard better than Mario, not ones that Mario couldn't edge guard lol.
Quick, edit, quick, before someone important sees!

 

[Matador]

^ Wtf. Learn to read, dude

Uhh..actually, these were characters who could edgeguard better than Mario, not ones that Mario couldn't edge guard lol.
Quick, edit, quick, before someone important sees!

Calmtf down, taken in either context the statement is false. You have something to respond to either way.

Edit @ ROOOOY!: Nice job quoting the edited post btw.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Hey! You...SHUT UP! >=O
I left the computer for a while and you must have edited it while I'd gone because when I'd hit the edit button your unedited post was there and the edited version appeared there apparently without me even realising. It's not like I was insulting in the slightest, I was just pointing it out. It's not like I told you to learn to read, like I could've done.

To your edge guarding thing, I'd argue that Marth, Dedede, Metaknight, Falco, ROB, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff and Sheik all have better edgeguarding games then Mario (some are fairly close though IMO, so whatever) out of that list. I also believe that ZSS has a very good edgeguarding game.

 

[Matador]

Hey! You...SHUT UP! >=O

Nah, I'm good

I left the computer for a while and you must have edited it while I'd gone because when I'd hit the edit button your unedited post was there and the edited version appeared there apparently without me even realising. It's not like I was insulting in the slightest, I was just pointing it out. It's not like I told you to learn to read, like I could've done.

No Johns

To your edge guarding thing, I'd argue that Marth, Dedede, Metaknight, Falco, ROB, Sonic, Donkey Kong, Jigglypuff and Sheik all have better edgeguarding games then Mario (some are fairly close though IMO, so whatever) out of that list. I also believe that ZSS has a very good edgeguarding game.

All of the above mentioned have very good edgeguarding. The fact that Mario has so many options (Cape, Fludd, Fair meteor, Bair, Nair, Uair, Reverse uair, Capeglide -> Fludd/aerial, bair stagespikes, etc.) is why I think that his edgeguarding ability should be considered a positive. He also has ledgehogging similar to (but not better than) TL and Link because of his cape ledgestall. The only characters I'd completely mark off the list are Sonic, Falco, and maybe Marth. They're all good at edgeguarding and gimping, but not to the point of being better than Mario's imo.

MK's is the best in the game at gimping. I'm not sure of why he's even being considered in discussions like these anymore. SWF should just collectively assume that he's the best at everything to cut down discussion.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Yeah I'd probably take Falco off that list too. Dair's just intimidating. VERY intimidating.
Sonic's offstage game is I'd say on par with Mario's, they just function a bit differently sometimes.
At times, against a person with limited reach for their recovery, Sonic has the horizontal airspeed and a safe enough recovery to pursue offstage and gimp the recovery and then make it back to the stage pretty safetly.
Recovering from below the stage which a lot of characters are forced to do is quite difficult against a Sonic. A spring can completely wreck you if you're a space animal or a few other characters, and Sonic can perform a dair semispike on a character and then spring safetly back up to the stage.
You've also got Homing Attack and fair gimps which don't need any explanation really. One thing to point out is that a few of the frames of Sonic's fair hit the opponent behind him, which makes for sexy stage spikes.

And you're right, MK is the best at everything apart from sucking, failing, not spamming and losing. It's annoying how insanely easy he is to play. I haven't read up on him really and have used him a bit the the past few days and I'm already having as much success with him as I am with the character I've mained since the game came out >_>

 

[tyguy52]

i think olimar should be high tier, even though he is top of middle

 

[Matador]

ROOOOY!'s Post

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Sonic being able to go so far from the stage without risking his recovery definitely is a plus. I still find Mario's better because his options usually mean certain death which used properly. Things like Sonic's spring and HA aren't nearly as effective as Fludd/Cape. Sonic being able to chase opponents much higher than Sonic may make up for it but w/e.

My point is that Mario's edgeguarding is far from bad or average. It should be amongst the best in the game like ROB and Jiggz. I'm not sure if comparing it with characters like Shiek is fair to either character because of all of the variables involved. All I'm arguing is that Mario's is good; better than people think.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Sonic being able to go so far from the stage without risking his recovery definitely is a plus. I still find Mario's better because his options usually mean certain death which used properly. Things like Sonic's spring and HA aren't nearly as effective as Fludd/Cape. Sonic being able to chase opponents much higher than Mario may make up for it but w/e.

Sonic's options mean certain death a lot of times too, because his edgeguarding is done further off the stage.

And spring gimping is extemely effective when set up properly. HA isn't that stellar though.

But yeah, I need to fight some good Marios to see just how effective cape/fludd edgeguarding is.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Forgive my general ignorance about Mario's fludd, but who exactly is it useful against?

I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying I'm not familiar with how effective it is.

 

[Judge Judy]

Forgive my general ignorance about Mario's fludd, but who exactly is it useful against?

I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying I'm not familiar with how effective it is.

As far as gimping, everyone. It kills momentum and can setup capes and aerials. FLUDD directly gimps recoveries like Ike's ather. FLUDD also has a few situational instant kills but it's very situational in those cases. As far is directly effective against a character, it's effective more against floaty people who rely heavly on their aerials to approach. FLUDD ***** G&W cause it traps G&W inside his own hitstun for all of his atks which makes G&W very vunerable to Mario in almost every senario.

I used to hate the FLUDD, but now I love it. I still rarly use it though, unless I'm fighting G&W.

 

[gantrain05]

well i have use flood to once gimp a metaknight while he was in shuttle loop offstage, he fell short of the ledge of yoshi's island and fell to his doom. mwahahahaha. mario>metaknight

 

[Judge Judy]

well i have use flood to once gimp a metaknight while he was in shuttle loop offstage, he fell short of the ledge of yoshi's island and fell to his doom. mwahahahaha. mario>metaknight

Ok, that's good but there's a lot more things you can do with the FLUDD than that. It's situational, but all its situational uses are usually lethal. Trust me, I've dropped some jaws with how I use the FLUDD against G&W.