Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ROOOOY!]

What are you doing putting Sonic that high?! Everyone knows that Sonic can't do anything to anyone ever cos of his lol bad priarity no range no kill moves.

Spoiler

Even though Sonic's better than every character below him on your list, bar Ness

Ness is very very low.
And lol at GayMenWatch twice.

And mid tier is pretty broad.

 

[Minwu]

ChronoPenguins list is absurd. Pit, Wolf, DK and the ICs in the same tier as Yoshi, Sonic, Ike and Bowser???
Besides GaW is in two tiers at once...

I kinda agree about Yoshi. He has a move that fuctions similarly to a wavedash, can release CG, and has a fairly even matchup vs. MK.


I think Ness and Sheik could be bumped below Lucas

 

[exidid]

DK is much higher than that. He has the range, the speed, the wieght, the combos and the moveset to make it into mid/high tier.

I would like Peach in the top of the middle tier, but that's just bias.

 

[chewyy]

:-/
Right now he probably deserves to be that high, but I think Wario should/is going to fall. I mean so many characters have release infinites vs him on flat or slanted ground. And if not that, just the fact that grab = free UpSmash with most characters should hurt him, even Dk can grab release -> FC donkey punch.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^DDD can chaingrab and then grab release up tilt Wario. It's pretty sad.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Because once you get past the top 5/7 worst characters it barely even matters anymore.

That is irrelevant the point is the gaps between the characters as well as in relation to each other.

Ganondorf and Falcon are in their own bad league.

This obviously points to them being bottom tier.

PT is in this wonky position.
Once you get past Ganondorf, Falcon, Jigglypuff and Link.
It almost barely matters anymore since everyone starts playing at much closer levels overall at that point.

Proof please.
To my knowledge Sonic outperforms all of those characters and has placed much better as well.

But whatever >.> Sonic is wierd, people don't like him, blah whatever.

He's an unusual character.
3000 plays him simply.
Tenki plays him as a bait.
I use direct behavior.
I think like several other characters because of the lack of good users his metagame hasn't developed enough.

Edit:
Sonic is also 11th from the bottom currently.
Yoshi is 9th (just throwing that out there)
Inbetween those 2 is Zelda.

Sonic's doing 11th from the best but nobody is going to put Zelda as 10th worst (atleast not right now =P) so Sonic goes in 10th slot or so.

Who cares what people think?
The point is for them to remain true to the facts.
And yes Sonic is currently 11th from worst but I am quite sure he'll rise up.
He jumped ten places from the beginning of the date.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

ChronoPenguins list is absurd. Pit, Wolf, DK and the ICs in the same tier as Yoshi, Sonic, Ike and Bowser???
Besides GaW is in two tiers at once...

Fix'd now G&W is just High Tier.


Yoshi's improving steadily, tourney results aren't as bad as they once were, his match ups look better than ever.
Sonic has improved, Bowser has improved (+ he's higher than Yoshi and Sonic)
Ike is....well I forgot how high he was, but he appears to hold his own

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And how do you justify Wario and Falco to be an entire tier above GaW, DDD and ROB?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

And how do you justify Wario and Falco to be an entire tier above GaW, DDD and ROB?

Go Look up at the tourney results, G&W isn't doing that well in actuality, somethings not right and while he's still a force to be wary of, he's not really close to his "expected" margin.
With his Match ups he shoulds be doing much better, but he isn't, Wario and others are doing better, thats just it.

Wario will likely go down as Infinites start to hinder him more.


But seriously.

You have Metaknight with high results
Snake with the 2nd best.

Then you have Wario, Falco and DDD.

Then G&W is just sitting there >.> like "Hi, uh....I just transfered from bad *** to Good, can I have a better slot on the Football team than your current all-stars >.>"

 

[Zinc Elemental]

\Then G&W is just sitting there >.> like "Hi, uh....I just transfered from bad *** to Good, can I have a better slot on the Football team than your current all-stars >.>"

That's an arguement? How good they were in melee has nothing to do with anything. Besides, everyone else but Falco is a newcomer anyway.

Are you basing your list entirely off tournament results? Unless you are, Wario should not be a tier above G&W, DDD, ROB, and Marth.

 

[Sudsy86_]

I've been playing with characters that were foreign to me, lately, and here is what I think is the case right now. This is mostly based on what I feel a character's potential is in high competitive play ( metagame, primarily). Tournament results wasn't considerably relevant among those who I naturally think are low: I either don't know how good certain players are, or I don't know enough about what characters were used.

This might not be in my exact order.
Top:
Metaknight

Very high:
Snake

High:
Dedede
Marth
ROB
Squirtle
Lucario
Falco
G&W
Kirby
Pikachu

Higher-of-middle:
Wario
Olimar
Luigi
Ice Climbers
DK
Diddy Kong
Pit
Peach
Wolf
Lower-of-middle:
Toon Link
Shiek
Mario
Ness
Jigglypuff
ZS Samus

Low:
Yoshi
Fox
Charizard
Venusaur
Lucas
Bowser
Zelda
Ike

Bottom:
Link
Ganondorf
Sonic
Samus
Captain Falcon

Middle was hard for me to organize thoroughly, though it is roughly how I view it to be. There isn't an official "Heart-of-middle" tier, but it encompasses the bottom of the higher and the top of the lower middle tiers.

Personal experience leads me to conclude that people I've seen don't play the following characters properly and are the main reason most place them lower: Ness, Shiek, Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Bowser.

These are characters I've concluded have low metagame potential compared to their usual tier placing: Fox, Zelda, G&W, Wolf, and Pit.

To discredit most personal biases, characters who I hate the feel of when playing are:
MK, Snake, Dedede, G&W, Wario, Olimar, Pit, Diddy, ZS Samus, Sonic, Zelda, and Wolf.

Characters who I love the feel for are: Mario, Falco, Falcon, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Shiek, DK, and Bowser.

The rest I have no possible emotional biases towards.

If possible, I would like to hear arguments against my placement of G&W, Venusaur, Fox, Wolf, Luigi.

Is it safe to assume most will find others not out of reason?

 

[AlexX]

The 500 ranking points he has over the next highest character says differently.

I was talking in terms of match-ups. Besides, tournament results aren't that large a contributing factor. As I said in another topic, if everyone started using Yoshi tomorrow and he began dominating the tournament scene as badly as MK is now, he still wouldn't be top tier material because he's not that great of a character.

Besides snake he has more ranking points then the rest of the characters combined as well.

More than the rest? Yes. More than the rest combined? No. That's a gross exaggeration.

*tier list*

Why is Ike the bottom of low? He's not great, but he's not outright terrible. Zelda deserves to be higher, too. A lot higher.

 

[Barge]

Low;
Venusaur

.....
venusaur?

 

[Yinlong]

SOMEONE doesnt know their pokemon!!!!

 

[OverLade]

I've been playing with characters that were foreign to me, lately, and here is what I think is the case right now. This is mostly based on what I feel a character's potential is in high competitive play ( metagame, primarily). Tournament results wasn't considerably relevant among those who I naturally think are low: I either don't know how good certain players are, or I don't know enough about what characters were used.

This might not be in my exact order.
Top:
Metaknight

Very high:
Snake

High:
Dedede
Marth
ROB
Squirtle
Lucario
Falco
G&W
Kirby
Pikachu

Higher-of-middle:
Wario
Olimar
Luigi
Ice Climbers
DK
Diddy Kong
Pit
Peach
Wolf
Lower-of-middle:
Toon Link
Shiek
Mario
Ness
Jigglypuff
ZS Samus

Low:
Yoshi
Fox
Charizard
Venusaur
Lucas
Bowser
Zelda
Ike

Bottom:
Link
Ganondorf
Sonic
Samus
Captain Falcon

Middle was hard for me to organize thoroughly, though it is roughly how I view it to be. There isn't an official "Heart-of-middle" tier, but it encompasses the bottom of the higher and the top of the lower middle tiers.

Personal experience leads me to conclude that people I've seen don't play the following characters properly and are the main reason most place them lower: Ness, Shiek, Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, and Bowser.

These are characters I've concluded have low metagame potential compared to their usual tier placing: Fox, Zelda, G&W, Wolf, and Pit.

To discredit most personal biases, characters who I hate the feel of when playing are:
MK, Snake, Dedede, G&W, Wario, Olimar, Pit, Diddy, ZS Samus, Sonic, Zelda, and Wolf.

Characters who I love the feel for are: Mario, Falco, Falcon, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Shiek, DK, and Bowser.

The rest I have no possible emotional biases towards.

If possible, I would like to hear arguments against my placement of G&W, Venusaur, Fox, Wolf, Luigi.

Is it safe to assume most will find others not out of reason?

This tier list is biased and not very accurate.

Snake doesn't deserve his own tier. He's not winning near as many tourneys as he used to due to Wario, Falco, MK, and D3. Squire is NOT high tier. Wario is definetly high tier. Luigi is mid tier. Diddy is above DK. Toon link is higher than peach by far. Ness is lower. Fox is mid tier, definetly not low. ZSS shoudl be much higher in mid tier. Pika should be a little lower.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I was talking in terms of match-ups. Besides, tournament results aren't that large a contributing factor. As I said in another topic, if everyone started using Yoshi tomorrow and he began dominating the tournament scene as badly as MK is now, he still wouldn't be top tier material because he's not that great of a character.

Tournament results aren't the only factor, but they ARE a major factor, especially when it's this extreme of a gap. How many ranking points behind MK is the next character after snake? I thought so.

The fact is that Yoshi COULD NOT dominate the tournament scene, because he is not an amazing. Unless literally everyone played Yoshi, it would be impossible.

Sure, popularity does affect tournament rankings (and MK affects tournament rankings), but unless a character is horrifically underplayed, they'll generally pull spots at an approximate ratio to their overall ability in the overall metagame.

There are plenty of other popular characters, Snake, DDD, Marth, Falco, etc. They're all well played, the ratio of good players of those characters is to good MK players is significantly greater then their share of the ranking points compared to his.

To that, add his match-ups. No disadvantages, very few neutrals all of which as far as we can tell are still slightly in his advantage. Hard-counters a number of characters. Soft-counters everyone else.

MK is utterly in a league of his own, no other character even approaches his level of potential.

More than the rest? Yes. More than the rest combined? No. That's a gross exaggeration.

Well actually it's just out of date.

Current rankings require you to throw out Wario and Falco along with Snake for this to be true, but still it's an INCREDIBLE feat and shows how powerful MK is.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Overall best character:
Meta Knight


Top Tier::
Snake
Falco
G&W

High Tier:
Wario
King Dedede
Marth
R.O.B
Lucario
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Olimar
Kirby

Middle Tier:
Pit
Wolf
Peach
Donkey Kong
Ice Climbers
Zero Suit Samus
Pokemon Trainer
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Zelda
Sonic
Yoshi
Bowser
Ike
Ness
Sheik
Lucas

Miley Cyrus Tier:
Link
Samus
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon


People are going to be all "Omfg but that character is so much better than that, where is the proof though >.> Good characters are almost always played more than bad characters (except for Sonic and Ike apparently)
So if X was good but they aren't showing overall that they are good, then X should be re-evaluated.
Sure popularity plays a role but, a Good MK should most of the time smash any Ganondorf he comes in contact with so even if Ganondorf was the most played Character, Ganondorf being bad would bring him down, Wario DDD, and Falco being so much higher up means that they function very well at competitive play, apparently more than G&W but whatever.


Then there are "Bad" characters that are doing much better than expected. Bowser does better than the general opinion would think he would, same with Yoshi. While both are still low they do better than current expectations and do better than others at this moment in time >.>

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then there are "Bad" characters that are doing much better than expected. Bowser does better than the general opinion would think he would, same with Yoshi. While both are still low they do better than current expectations and do better than others at this moment in time >.>

Misread that list completely soz.

 

[AlexX]

Tournament results aren't the only factor, but they ARE a major factor, especially when it's this extreme of a gap. How many ranking points behind MK is the next character after snake? I thought so.

If tournament rankings are that major, why isn't Sonic higher in the official list? It's been stated by the SBR that tournament rankings are merely a starting point, and a character's overall potential is what matters most when determining a tier list. Yes, MK is a beast, but he does not hard counter the majority of the cast.

The fact is that Yoshi COULD NOT dominate the tournament scene, because he is not an amazing. Unless literally everyone played Yoshi, it would be impossible.

*headdesk* It was HYPOTHETICAL.

I didn't say it would happen, or even that it was possible. I was just saying that just because a character dominates the tournament scene doesn't mean the character is god-tier, be it by a good character like MK or a mediocre one like Yoshi.

Sure, popularity does affect tournament rankings (and MK affects tournament rankings), but unless a character is horrifically underplayed, they'll generally pull spots at an approximate ratio to their overall ability in the overall metagame.

Or it could just mean the character is really, really popular. MK is the mysterious anti-hero of the Kirby series and one of the few characters with legitimate combos, so it makes sense he'd be flocked to regardless of how broken he is or isn't.

To that, add his match-ups. No disadvantages, very few neutrals all of which as far as we can tell are still slightly in his advantage. Hard-counters a number of characters. Soft-counters everyone else.

MK hard-counters very few characters (most if not all of which are terrible ones to begin with), and 6-4 is still a pretty close match-up, because the other character still has a reasonable shot of winning since MK's advantage is only slight.

MK is utterly in a league of his own, no other character even approaches his level of potential.

Characters like Snake and G&W also have match-ups that are always either even or in their favor, as well. They're not seen as "horribly broken" like MK is, but that doesn't change that they're beastly characters, as well.

Current rankings require you to throw out Wario and Falco along with Snake for this to be true, but still it's an INCREDIBLE feat and shows how powerful MK is.

Or it's just showing how much people are using him, be it because they think he's cool or because they're under the impression they can't win with anyone else.

 

[Pink_Yoshi]

Too bad I've played with Yoshi for 9 years. The only character I know how to use, and it's quite sad that he is never a high tier, or that people believes it is useless.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Could you please stop to post a new tier list every few pages? nobody cares about them too much anyways...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi has potential in Brawl atleast to move up, so if your Lucky Pink, he'll be somewhere high, in mid tier.

 

[powell651234]

Yall need to realize that there isn't much difference between the high/mid characters and the mid/low characters.

The strength difference is neggly.

The other day, a Samus and a Link pwned a campus wide doubles tournament.

Its about the players, so stop whining, "OOOHHH my characters not high enough, he's not as high as meta-knight, and that meta-knight player has a more attractive wife." Just get on with it. And start winning.

 

[Neb]

Yall need to realize that there isn't much difference between the high/mid characters and the mid/low characters.

The strength difference is neggly.

The other day, a Samus and a Link pwned a campus wide doubles tournament.

Its about the players, so stop whining, "OOOHHH my characters not high enough, he's not as high as meta-knight, and that meta-knight player has a more attractive wife." Just get on with it. And start winning.

QFT.
This man speaks the truth.

 

[Gindler]

Yall need to realize that there isn't much difference between the high/mid characters and the mid/low characters.

The strength difference is neggly.

The other day, a Samus and a Link pwned a campus wide doubles tournament.

Its about the players, so stop whining, "OOOHHH my characters not high enough, he's not as high as meta-knight, and that meta-knight player has a more attractive wife." Just get on with it. And start winning.

Ha, I'm sure not many people in marriage age even play smash as it's only to pass time.......But that is one of the funniest things I've read on smashboards

 

[DanGR]

If tournament rankings are that major, why isn't Sonic higher in the official list? It's been stated by the SBR that tournament rankings are merely a starting point, and a character's overall potential is what matters most when determining a tier list.

sorry, this is bull. If that was the case, Olimar (along with many other characters) would be tiers higher in the sbr's tier list.

 

[Matador]

sorry, this is bull. If that was the case, Olimar (along with many other characters) would be tiers higher in the sbr's tier list.

QFT

You can't accurately measure potential.

 

[AlexX]

sorry, this is bull. If that was the case, Olimar (along with many other characters) would be tiers higher in the sbr's tier list.

That's what I recall the SBR has said is the main contributing factor to the list. I'm not spouting an opinion, here (though if you ask me, I wholeheartedly agree that those like Olimar are considerably lower than they deserve).

 

[adumbrodeus]

If tournament rankings are that major, why isn't Sonic higher in the official list? It's been stated by the SBR that tournament rankings are merely a starting point, and a character's overall potential is what matters most when determining a tier list. Yes, MK is a beast, but he does not hard counter the majority of the cast.

"A major factor", not "the only factor" and not "the biggest factor".

Obviously overall potential matters the most, but current tournament results are illustrating that MK's potential far outstrips any other character within the current metagame. That may change if something else is discovered, but as of current MK's potential is far greater by far then any other character.

*headdesk* It was HYPOTHETICAL.

I was pointing out it was a false analogy fallacy.

Your hypothetical fails because the results of Yoshi having equivalent popularity to MK would be drastically different then the current situation.

That is the textbook definition of false analogy fallacy.

I didn't say it would happen, or even that it was possible. I was just saying that just because a character dominates the tournament scene doesn't mean the character is god-tier, be it by a good character like MK or a mediocre one like Yoshi.

Not dominant... THIS DOMINANT.

Popularity can push a character a few ranking points above what it should get, and lack thereof definitely can push a character down significantly. But this level of dominance in unachievable unless the character is significantly better then the rest of the cast given a reasonable spread of other characters. You also have to consider that MK is not all that much more popular then the other "top tier" characters. Their players definitely beat him in raw numbers, and probably individually at least one of them does.

Popularity plays a factor in tournament results, but it's just not enough to explain what's going on here.

Or it could just mean the character is really, really popular. MK is the mysterious anti-hero of the Kirby series and one of the few characters with legitimate combos, so it makes sense he'd be flocked to regardless of how broken he is or isn't.

But other characters are popular as well. What pushes him above these other characters?

That he wins, that's the difference.

MK hard-counters very few characters (most if not all of which are terrible ones to begin with), and 6-4 is still a pretty close match-up, because the other character still has a reasonable shot of winning since MK's advantage is only slight.

That depends entirely on who you ask, most people think that MK has considerably more then just a few.

Regardless, 60/40 may still be winnable, but it's definitely difficult and 60/40 is a quite signifigant advantage, especially without a disadvantage.

Characters like Snake and G&W also have match-ups that are always either even or in their favor, as well. They're not seen as "horribly broken" like MK is, but that doesn't change that they're beastly characters, as well.

Lol, both characters have disadvantaged Match-ups, otherwise they'd be considered as good as MK probably.

Or it's just showing how much people are using him, be it because they think he's cool or because they're under the impression they can't win with anyone else.

Lol, since when is smashboards composed of MK mains just about to the man?

That's about what it would require to mean nothing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

And going by potential...Sonic should still be higher than he is now.
The SBR tier list is honestly based on their collective opinions of character potential (however subjective it may be) and most early lists will be inaccurate (esspecially concerning lesser played characters).

Also, I'd just like to point out that Metaknight having no disadvantages means that you are litterally forced to main a character that has a 40-60 matchup or better against him in order to compete effectively. For the other top tiers, you can simply second one of their bad matchups to deal with them ****** your main.

 

[AlexX]

"A major factor", not "the only factor" and not "the biggest factor".

Obviously overall potential matters the most, but current tournament results are illustrating that MK's potential far outstrips any other character within the current metagame. That may change if something else is discovered, but as of current MK's potential is far greater by far then any other character.

Or it could just mean everyone has convinced themselves that MK is the only way to win. I believe that, as someone said in the other topic, what's going on is that people are getting owned by MK and decide that they cannot win without either using MK or dedicating a substantial amount of time to develop their skills with their chosen character, so naturally, they simply swap to using MK instead.

I was pointing out it was a false analogy fallacy.

Your hypothetical fails because the results of Yoshi having equivalent popularity to MK would be drastically different then the current situation.

That is the textbook definition of false analogy fallacy.

If you want a better example, then replace Yoshi with a character who is actually good, like say... Wario. If Wario were to dominate (which he very easily could if enough used him since he's at least even with the majority of the top-tiers, MK included), would he suddenly be considered as broken as MK?

Not dominant... THIS DOMINANT.

Popularity can push a character a few ranking points above what it should get, and lack thereof definitely can push a character down significantly. But this level of dominance in unachievable unless the character is significantly better then the rest of the cast given a reasonable spread of other characters. You also have to consider that MK is not all that much more popular then the other "top tier" characters. Their players definitely beat him in raw numbers, and probably individually at least one of them does.

Popularity plays a factor in tournament results, but it's just not enough to explain what's going on here.

How do you know their players beat his popularity in raw numbers? Here at the Smashboards we get a ton of variety in mainers because we are, for the most part, fairly dedicated to our characters. In these actual tournaments, it's possible that the majority of the entrients are MK, or that they eventually switch to using MK by the end, thus, MK wins.

But other characters are popular as well. What pushes him above these other characters?

That he wins, that's the difference.

Same could be said about Snake. Yes, he doesn't win as often, but that doesn't mean he's not broken.

That depends entirely on who you ask, most people think that MK has considerably more then just a few.

There's also people who claim MK is 8-2 or 9-1 on the entire cast. That doesn't make it true.

Regardless, 60/40 may still be winnable, but it's definitely difficult and 60/40 is a quite signifigant advantage, especially without a disadvantage.

No, it's not a significant advantage. 7-3 or 8-2 is a significant advantage. 6-4 is a slight advantage, and those and 5-5 matchups are what the majority of MK's matchups are made of.

Lol, both characters have disadvantaged Match-ups, otherwise they'd be considered as good as MK probably.

So you didn't even bother to check their match-ups? Do so. They have few if not none. Snake has lagless moves and has strong range on top of hard-hitting blows. G&W is the same with the added bonus of lingering hitboxes. They are at least as beastly as MK.

Lol, since when is smashboards composed of MK mains just about to the man?

That's about what it would require to mean nothing.

Where did I say it meant nothing? Not once did I say it meant nothing, I'm just saying it's not as major as you're making it out to be.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How do you know their players beat his popularity in raw numbers? Here at the Smashboards we get a ton of variety in mainers because we are, for the most part, fairly dedicated to our characters. In these actual tournaments, it's possible that the majority of the entrients are MK, or that they eventually switch to using MK by the end, thus, MK wins.

The majority of players that fit into your category are new players. Bad metaknights should not affect tournament results (unless he's really that broken that bad players beat significantly better players with him). Thus, it's only the good metaknights that count.

Same could be said about Snake. Yes, he doesn't win as often, but that doesn't mean he's not broken.

Metaknight is still better than him. The proof? He's winning, even when there are good Snakes at the tournament.

There's also people who claim MK is 8-2 or 9-1 on the entire cast. That doesn't make it true.

He does have quite a few 7-3 matchups, and a lot of 6-4s, with very little (actually, not a single agreed on) 5-5.

No, it's not a significant advantage. 7-3 or 8-2 is a significant advantage. 6-4 is a slight advantage, and those and 5-5 matchups are what the majority of MK's matchups are made of.

6-4 is Marth vs. Peach in melee.

Also, not a single one of those 5-5 matchups is agreed upon by the community (or even the mains of the characters involved).

So you didn't even bother to check their match-ups? Do so. They have few if not none. Snake has lagless moves and has strong range on top of hard-hitting blows. G&W is the same with the added bonus of lingering hitboxes. They are at least as beastly as MK.

Snake has problems with 4-6 DK, Metaknight, and Rob (rob is kinda questionable)
G&W has a 4-6 against Toon Link (G&W boards say so)

Where did I say it meant nothing? Not once did I say it meant nothing, I'm just saying it's not as major as you're making it out to be.[/QUOTE]

They're maining him because he's good. It happens in every competitive game. It happened in melee too. Good characters become very popular when people put the focus on winning. Metaknight's popularity is based on how good he is, not the other way around

 

[Zinc Elemental]

They're maining him because he's good. It happens in every competitive game. It happened in melee too. Good characters become very popular when people put the focus on winning. Metaknight's popularity is based on how good he is, not the other way around

Yes, but once people start playing him because he's good, he starts getting even more wins, which makes the situation seem more extreme than it actually is.

 

[Gindler]

Or it could just mean everyone has convinced themselves that MK is the only way to win. I believe that, as someone said in the other topic, what's going on is that people are getting owned by MK and decide that they cannot win without either using MK or dedicating a substantial amount of time to develop their skills with their chosen character, so naturally, they simply swap to using MK instead.

For realz? I just work on the defeating of MK, of course that throws off my defeating of snakeness.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I would never switch to MK. That is like all of the Hillary Clinton voter who were just voting for her because she was a woman switching to Sarah Palin just because she is a woman. I will not jump on the bandwagon.

 

[popsofctown]

Or it could just mean everyone has convinced themselves that MK is the only way to win. I believe that, as someone said in the other topic, what's going on is that people are getting owned by MK and decide that they cannot win without either using MK or dedicating a substantial amount of time to develop their skills with their chosen character, so naturally, they simply swap to using MK instead.

a. you say "everyone has convinced themselves that mk is the only way to win", like it's a ludicrous and outlandish statement. There's physical evidence that if MK is not the only way to win, he comes darn close to the easiest way to win.
b. Everyone is supposed to play to win. If i need to log 100 more hours with (let's use ROB since overswarm sort of did this) ROB to be good enough to beat metagame-level MKs, and i need 50 more hours to reach that same point with MK, which should i pick if i'm playing to win (and of course, practicing to win). MK. And if i practice 100 hours with MK, the extra 50 hours is just going to make me do even better.

Admittedly, this taken to its extreme would imply only the best character in every game should ever be used. What makes multi-character fighting games work is that people play better with a character they enjoy, and that fits their play style.

But the discrepancy that is here is so big that MK is almost always the way to win. We can knock off 30 hours off the 100 needed with ROB to account for playstyle preference, MK is still the best pick to play to win.

If you want a better example, then replace Yoshi with a character who is actually good, like say... Wario. If Wario were to dominate (which he very easily could if enough used him since he's at least even with the majority of the top-tiers, MK included), would he suddenly be considered as broken as MK?

Wario could not dominate as strongly as MK does from popularity alone. He would get countered, and though he could take the top of the list if everyone started using him, dedicated players using his counters (marth? Zelda) would keep him close to whatever character is in number 2 slot. He would have to have better abilities than he does now. MK's domination is evidence of his extremely good characteristics.

How do you know their players beat his popularity in raw numbers? Here at the Smashboards we get a ton of variety in mainers because we are, for the most part, fairly dedicated to our characters. In these actual tournaments, it's possible that the majority of the entrients are MK, or that they eventually switch to using MK by the end, thus, MK wins.

I've been one recommending that this data be collected. It's honestly a valid question. However, of the tournaments i've been to, one had no MKs, one had one MK, one had two MKs. An MK won at both the tournaments the character was present.. There was about twenty people at each one.

Same could be said about Snake. Yes, he doesn't win as often, but that doesn't mean he's not broken.

Once again, tournament success is evidence of brokenness. If you look at Snake carefully, you can detect the reasons why he's not as good as MK. He can be juggled to kingdom come, easily punishable recovery, fall speed gets him comboed, and he can't approach. His Mortar Slide is the only approach and it becomes predictable. Some characters, like Diddy and Olimar, can have a field day with these properties and win. Characters can actually get advantages on Snake, he's leagues behind MK.

There's also people who claim MK is 8-2 or 9-1 on the entire cast. That doesn't make it true.

So you didn't even bother to check their match-ups? Do so. They have few if not none. Snake has lagless moves and has strong range on top of hard-hitting blows. G&W is the same with the added bonus of lingering hitboxes. They are at least as beastly as MK.

Snake doesn't have lagless moves.. that's a vague exaggerated word and i'm not sure what you are using for. The only move in the game that i know of that has no startup lag and no ending lag would be Luigi's nair, maybe on the condition that you land it to cancel the end lag.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I've been one recommending that this data be collected. It's honestly a valid question. However, of the tournaments i've been to, one had no MKs, one had one MK, one had two MKs. An MK won at both the tournaments the character was present.. There was about twenty people at each one.

I agree that it would be wonderful if that data was collected, as showing that there's, say, a 20-1 ratio of MKs to Yoshis would be quite telling. However, I can't think of a good way of accurately collecting this data, as it isn't as easy to report as the top 8 is.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yes, but once people start playing him because he's good, he starts getting even more wins, which makes the situation seem more extreme than it actually is.

At the same time, as he gets more wins, people start looking harder for counters. The problem? We haven't found any.

 

[Groovy Kong]

I really don't want to sound like a complete utter troll (especially on my first day here). But I really don't think tiers are useful. It doesn't matter what character you use, just how you use it. I mean I see many Meta Knight players online and some of them really suck, I could beat them with Yoshi

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A tier list is assumed to have highly skilled players use these characters