Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Mmac]

Yoshi's Hardest CG (or is that DDD?, ya I know that's not really an issue since CG's are good things but whatever) I believe he cannot be Grab released Spiked, he recovers to quickly..

I'm not even sure If Wolf's CG is even real. I have no problems Chaingrabbing Snake/Dedede offline, but I have never once CG'ed Wolf.

Also, personally, I think G&W is better than Dedede

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I know. I just wanted to point out, that DDD still is above Gaw. Some people seem to forget that

I never said he wasn't above him. Personally, I agree with Mmac.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think Snake's #2 spot on the tier list is looking quite shaky now.

When I look around at match-up topics, I see more and more characters starting to be considered even or counters to Snake (i.e: Dedede, Olimar, and Pikachu).

Some characters like Game & Watch and Marth seem to be widely considered to have better match-ups than Snake from what I see, so are tournament results really enough to keep Snake in his position?

This post is more of a question than an argument, but I personally think Snake should be a bit lower.

Match-ups alone don't define a tier list, Marth (who you mentioned above) has the second best match-ups in the game, but is not the second best character in the game. Really it comes down to the fact that being able to hard-counter a good number of characters is more of an advantage when there's a standing top tier that's as powerful as MK then simply soft-countering a lot of characters.

In general, Snake just rips apart too many characters at the moment to be considered a possibility for moving down.

Perhaps when the metagame has developed more.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yoshi can't chain grab Wolf. I've played my Wolf vs Pride's Yoshi many times, we used to be in the same crew. He really hates fighting Wolf. We both agree that the match easily favors Wolf.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth having 2nd best match-up is highly debatable. Falco and Gaw would like to have a word with you

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi can't chain grab Wolf. I've played my Wolf vs Pride's Yoshi many times, we used to be in the same crew. He really hates fighting Wolf. We both agree that the match easily favors Wolf.

Hardest CG yoshi has (well 1 of them).

You have to buffer the dash and crap, which I cannot do =P

 

[Kiwikomix]

I don't think it can really be considered a CG if no one can do it...
And yes, Chrono, I did follow you here.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

The only characters that can take 2nd place other than snake are Falco/G&W

 

[~ Gheb ~]

why do people say BS like that? D3 is better than both...

 

[Zinc Elemental]

why do people say BS like that? D3 is better than both...

Falco certainly. However, I think it's debatable between GaW and DDD.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

maybe it is. I just find it ... strange, how often he gets ignored...

 

[viparagon]

yeah d3 is a pretty cool guy

 

[Zinc Elemental]

yeah d3 is a pretty cool guy

.................................................................................................................................................................................
Hell yes.
*points to this thread* http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=139061

 

[CR4SH]

This is true and that's why some tier lists are revised as far as character flaws go, but the tier list is based on how well the characters themselves pit up against each other. Plus, saying you main one character and then pulling out Meta Knight for almost all your match-ups doesn't really help either.

But, thats the difference between "main" and "only", or "main" and "secondary". For the vast majority of my fights I play luigi (you could say, I Mainly, play luigi). But some matchups just don't make sense to keep luigi out, becuase my advantage of him being my best character is negated by the terrible matchup.

Maybe what I'm saying is it seems like the tier list seems to assume you never switch characters. EX. ness and lucas being low tier. But I think that's goofy since hardly anyone plays that way. And you certainly aren't required to.

I suppose I'd feel better if the tier list reflected how good a character is to main, rather than to play exclusively. Since luigi is definetly better than low mid as a character, except some godawful matchups. That doesn't detract from my luigi game, nor many others, because I have this novel thing called a secondary.

Edit: I read back over this and it seems a bit like I'm whining about luigi's tier position. Thats not my intent here. If you'd rather, please switch out luigi for ness, lucas, bowser, or any character who's held back on the tier list because of specific bad matchups.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Having a good secondary does not suddenly make your main a better character. It makes you a better player, but that's not what tier lists are about.

 

[Gindler]

Well I mainly play as Yoshi...against lucario I use Ness (or when I lose horribly as yoshi against someone)...and against snake I use link (don't laugh it works). Usually when people say they main someone it's who they like to play with the most.

Oh and teams is weird, i'm not sure if anyone still uses their mains in teams...

I really don't know what that's about as almost everyone has a secondary (only very few people don't and they use the really awesome characters)

 

[CR4SH]

^^Having a good secondary does not suddenly make your main a better character. It makes you a better player, but that's not what tier lists are about.

What I mean is, against most of the cast, characters like luigi and lucas do very well. Not like c. falcon, who's just bad, and is at a disadvantage because his moveset isn't any good.

I just don't agree that not being able to handle DDD because of an infinite makes bowser less of a good character. A less versatile character, sure. But in most cases, a good luigi can **** you just as hard as a good game and watch.

Edit: Yes I understand that theres a viable point to be made that less versatility makes you less good. However, I feel like that's a separate point to be argued, and not what I'm talking about.

Yes I realize that it's this argument that makes the tier list what it is, and I just think its weird. Because it's not terribly relevant in a game where you can switch characters. (basically my whole point)

 

[Dark Sonic]

Except Game&Watch doesn't have to have a secondary to back him up...and Luigi does.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Yoshi needs no secondary >.>

>.>......but just in case....
*pulls out Ganondorf*

BWUAHAHAHAH now im unbeatable!



*gets owned by Lucario*
God dammit >.>

 

[CR4SH]

Except Game&Watch doesn't have to have a secondary to back him up...and Luigi does.

I'm still not seeing the problem with that.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

why do people say BS like that? D3 is better than both...

IMO I'd say all 3 are tied, in the D3 topic of his tier placement, M2K once said Falco is the true 3rd, they are all tied.

 

[Veil2222]

The only ones I can think of is he's nodding at the time and effort spent having a secondary that could be spent on bettering just once character, but it seems that using two characters also betters your main.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What I mean is, against most of the cast, characters like luigi and lucas do very well. Not like c. falcon, who's just bad, and is at a disadvantage because his moveset isn't any good.

I just don't agree that not being able to handle DDD because of an infinite makes bowser less of a good character. A less versatile character, sure. But in most cases, a good luigi can **** you just as hard as a good game and watch.

Edit: Yes I understand that theres a viable point to be made that less versatility makes you less good. However, I feel like that's a separate point to be argued, and not what I'm talking about.

Yes I realize that it's this argument that makes the tier list what it is, and I just think its weird. Because it's not terribly relevant in a game where you can switch characters. (basically my whole point)

Moveset isn't evertything. Otherwise Ganondorf would be considerred to have a very good aerial game.

 

[Veil2222]

I see what cr4ash is saying though, low tiers are still pretty useful in a lineup since most of them do have at least one thing they're good at, and if a situation comes up where that can be more useful than your main has to offer in a matchup, then it's much better to switch out to the low tier. In that way, any character can be "good", and can get around their tier placement being looked at for their overall worth.

 

[adumbrodeus]

^^Having a good secondary does not suddenly make your main a better character. It makes you a better player, but that's not what tier lists are about.

I think actually this is a bit of an issue that we as a community have to deal with.

Tournament rankings are done by main, not considering secondaries, but most people pull out secondaries for certain match-ups. For that reason, the some good match-ups and a few bad ones are actually more viable then even match-ups in general.

DDD is probably the best example of this effect, because relative to other characters with his level of results, his match-ups suck. Why does he place so high?

edit:

Marth having 2nd best match-up is highly debatable. Falco and Gaw would like to have a word with you

Falco has multiple disadvantages, as does G&W.

Marth has one 60/40 (MK), and beyond that all of his match-ups are neutrals or better (Snake is 55/45, which is a neutral).

 

[bludhoundz]

Marth having 2nd best match-up is highly debatable. Falco and Gaw would like to have a word with you

While Marth may not have the second best matchups, he has 0 hard counters, unless you count MK.

Also IMO, G&W > D3, slightly. I think they are both definitely better than Falco though.

 

[choknater]

i agree that G&W might be passing up D3

mostly in matchups and strengths

midwest region is really unbelievable with their G&W dominance

great players up there

it's just that D3 can geat beaten by small fast characters like diddy, falco

GW can beat them

but GW has a harder time with some heavier ones, like Snake and Wario, possibly DK, all of whom ddd ***** with ease

 

[Veil2222]

Falco's god some decently bad matches under him, and a lot of people have easy chaingrabs and combos on him so I see why you feel that way. I don't have a good d3 player in my area so it's harder for me to say if he's deserving of his tie for third.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think actually this is a bit of an issue that we as a community have to deal with.

Tournament rankings are done by main, not considering secondaries, but most people pull out secondaries for certain match-ups. For that reason, the some good match-ups and a few bad ones are actually more viable then even match-ups in general.

DDD is probably the best example of this effect, because relative to other characters with his level of results, his match-ups suck. Why does he place so high?

While I agree with the above, I don't think that it should affect tier placement. Tiers are done mostly by comparing matchups, and kind of assume that you aren't using another character to cover one character's weakness (even though that's what you normally do, for the sake of comparison it's left out).

The only way to include secondaries, would be to have the tier list focus on the severity of advantages, while ignoring disadvantages (as you'd just pull out a secondary.) This just seems like it would be a lot more complicated, and the current tier system does its job well enough anyway.

 

[TKD]

My tier list

The tier list should look like this, in my opinion.

Top Tier
MK

Upper Tier
Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth
King Dedede

High Tier
R.O.B.
Wario
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong

Mid Tier
Ike
Peach
Pit
Wolf
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Sheik

Low
Ness
Lucas
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Yoshi
Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Sonic
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[ROOOOY!]

List

Yeah, no.
Ike that high is effin crazy.
And I wish people would stop putting Sonic at the bottom of lists for no good reason.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco has multiple disadvantages, as does G&W.

Marth has one 60/40 (MK), and beyond that all of his match-ups are neutrals or better (Snake is 55/45, which is a neutral).

It's funny to hear that from a Marth player. Just like a Marth would never say to have a disadvantage vs ROB and Snake, a Falco player would never say, that he has a disadv vs Marth. Of course Marth players insist to have the advantage against Falco and only one disadvantage but Falco players also claim to have only GaW as a true disadvantage...

It's called "bias"

 

[pure_awesome]

It's funny to hear that from a Marth player. Just like a Marth would never say to have a disadvantage vs ROB and Snake, a Falco player would never say, that he has a disadv vs Marth. Of course Marth players insist to have the advantage against Falco and only one disadvantage but Falco players also claim to have only GaW as a true disadvantage...

It's called "bias"

We've discussed Marth in the Falco boards. Most of the (smart) posters say that Marth has a very slight advantage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Very slight? Snake does have a "very slight" advantage vs Marth but nobody seems to think about it as a bad match-up...

 

[BibulousDan]

no no no no no! WHY do people still treat Pokemon Trainer as 1 charecter! You don't treat zelda and sheik as one charecter so why do you treat PT as 1. he should count as 3

 

[Mmac]

no no no no no! WHY do people still treat Pokemon Trainer as 1 charecter! You don't treat zelda and sheik as one charecter so why do you treat PT as 1. he should count as 3

Because you are FORCED to use all of PT's Pokemon. You can play only with Zelda. You can play only with Sheik. You CAN'T only play with Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard.


I really wish I could though. I <3 Ivysaur

 

[Zinc Elemental]

no no no no no! WHY do people still treat Pokemon Trainer as 1 charecter! You don't treat zelda and sheik as one charecter so why do you treat PT as 1. he should count as 3

Because. Zelda. and. Sheik. aren't. forced. to. switch.
How may people play just Zelda or Sheik? A lot, right? Now how many play just Squirtle, Ivysaur, or Charizard?

 

[Gindler]

I do know of a player that mains charizard. It isn't hard to do and most players will agree to let him change after each death because they respect them.

 

[Minwu]

I do know of a player that mains charizard. It isn't hard to do and most players will agree to let him change after each death because they respect them.

respect


really great strategy to beat MK tourney mains

 

[Morrigan]

I do know of a player that mains charizard. It isn't hard to do and most players will agree to let him change after each death because they respect them.

Wow...I wouldn't even let my friends do that if I play to win