Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Dark Sonic]

Very slight? Snake does have a "very slight" advantage vs Marth but nobody seems to think about it as a bad match-up...

Falco's disadvantage is 40-60. Marth's disadvantage is 45-55. Technically I guess you could call that a disadvantage, but that's the equivalent of saying Fox is disadvantaged against Marth in melee.

I do know of a player that mains charizard. It isn't hard to do and most players will agree to let him change after each death because they respect them.

I'd just charge a foward smash while their changing because they're being idiots.

 

[Tenki]

no no no no no! WHY do people still treat Pokemon Trainer as 1 charecter! You don't treat zelda and sheik as one charecter so why do you treat PT as 1. he should count as 3

In matchup discussions, they should be treated separately.

In tier discussions, Pokemon Trainer should be one character.

Why, Squirtle would be pretty low, because his playstyle generally attacks alot (faster to get fatigued) and he's probably the worst of the 3 when fatigued.

Charizard suffers the least from fatigue, I think.

.'/

 

[Gindler]

Well I just saw a few matches with the charizard main and the MK (or whoever else but most notably MK) would just wait the 10 seconds for them to get back to being charizard.

I'd do it, but then again I also let wario's out of infinites because I feel it's cheap. and try and balance playing to win with playing for fun.

But yeah I've charged smashes if they change during a fight, not at respawn though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYnuA38leV4

 

[Blackbelt]

I do know of a player that mains charizard. It isn't hard to do and most players will agree to let him change after each death because they respect them.

I am saddened by the fact that anyone would let anybody get away with that.

 

[-Mars-]

If they're in a major tournament and money is on the line, I doubt anyone is going to let a Pokemon Trainer change to get back to their best character.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Gindler-your not helping them get any better if you're doing that. PT players have to deal with the fact that they are forced to change. In a real tournament nobody is just going to let them change to their Pokemon of choice. You're just setting them up to fail when it comes time to actually test their skills against other people.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Well I just saw a few matches with the charizard main and the MK (or whoever else but most notably MK) would just wait the 10 seconds for them to get back to being charizard.

I'd do it, but then again I also let wario's out of infinites because I feel it's cheap. and try and balance playing to win with playing for fun.

But yeah I've charged smashes if they change during a fight, not at respawn though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYnuA38leV4

I'm going to assume they were playing for fun or practicing with/against Charizard. That will never happen in a tournament.

Btw, is Charizard supposed to use that much rock smash?

 

[adumbrodeus]

It's funny to hear that from a Marth player. Just like a Marth would never say to have a disadvantage vs ROB and Snake, a Falco player would never say, that he has a disadv vs Marth. Of course Marth players insist to have the advantage against Falco and only one disadvantage but Falco players also claim to have only GaW as a true disadvantage...

It's called "bias"

Actually the Falcon boards DO admit their disadvantage to Marth, quite frankly because Emblem Lord hammered the point home.

Last I checked the ROB boards support the neutral, though they don't have a current match-up thread that covers Marth.

Snake is a similar story, though in his case a very slight advantage on Snake's end, but not enough to qualify it as not being a neutral.


If you're gonna pull out the "bias" card, please back it up with facts, considering that we were arguing with the MK boards saying "no we really do have a disadvantage against you" I think that the Marth boards tend to be a little better in that department.

So, where is my analysis wrong? Point out where bias obscures my judgement otherwise it's just a Red Herring.



Oh and btw

a Falco player would never say, that he has a disadv vs Marth.

Are you sure about that?

Ok, thank you all guys for your response.

Does everybody agree on a 40-60 match-up ?

I will move on tomorrow (and write an new summary in the first page).

[EDIT : Zelda's summary on the first page. Comment encouraged ]

[EDIT2 : I added a Counterpick field. From now, please say which stage you would pick again a certain character. You have 9 Characters' counterpicks to complete ]

That's taken from the Falcon boards match-up thread, that's the guy running their threads. He's not the only Falcon who said that.

You can also check the Marth vs. Falco thread, at the end there's pretty much a consensus that it's Marth's advantage. Heck, I can even cite a pm in regards to this.

Falcos generally consider this a 60-40 Marth advantage.



edit:

Very slight? Snake does have a "very slight" advantage vs Marth but nobody seems to think about it as a bad match-up...

Not very slight, advantage/disadvantage territory.

Snake's 55-45 against Marth is in neutral territory, whereas Marth's 60-40 versus Falco is soft counter territory.

 

[Fogo]

Well I just saw a few matches with the charizard main and the MK (or whoever else but most notably MK) would just wait the 10 seconds for them to get back to being charizard.

I'd do it, but then again I also let wario's out of infinites because I feel it's cheap. and try and balance playing to win with playing for fun.

But yeah I've charged smashes if they change during a fight, not at respawn though...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYnuA38leV4

haha i'm uploading a vid because of that post, link after it processes.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

respect


really great strategy to beat MK tourney mains

I lol'ed.

Seriously, Gindler, you gotta shake the scrubby mindset out of that guy. If your buddy has aspirations of going to a tournament, he needs to get over the fact that his opponent is not going to just let him play Charizard.

Edit: And, apparently, you need to shake some of that scrubbiness outta you too.

>__>

Smooth Criminal

 

[choknater]

I'd let my opponent switch to Charizard if he wanted (as long as I was using Dedede.)


(hm... jk i'd probably grab him out of the switch and CG to gimp if he was changing to ivysaur... HAHAH)

 

[jiovanni007]

I lol'ed.

Seriously, Gindler, you gotta shake the scrubby mindset out of that guy. If your buddy has aspirations of going to a tournament, he needs to get over the fact that his opponent is not going to just let him play Charizard.

Edit: And, apparently, you need to shake some of that scrubbiness outta you too.

>__>

Smooth Criminal

Smooth Criminal....so cruel...

He (and the last 10 posters for that matter) make a great point, when money is on the line, no one is going to let you switch to the character that you are best with if they can help it. That would be like someone not punishing me for missing a brick as Kirby (even though its MUCH tougher to punish than pokemon change). Point being, if a PT main isn't proficient with all three of the Pokemon, they won't be able to do much in tournaments. I plan to use PT at low tier tournaments, but I'm not going to defeat myself from the beginning by putting myself in the disillusion that people are going to give me free switches to Ivysaur.

 

[Gindler]

I lol'ed.

Seriously, Gindler, you gotta shake the scrubby mindset out of that guy. If your buddy has aspirations of going to a tournament, he needs to get over the fact that his opponent is not going to just let him play Charizard.

Edit: And, apparently, you need to shake some of that scrubbiness outta you too.

>__>

Smooth Criminal

Ha, I don't even know the guy. I just know of him, but yeah like 1/100 would actually LET him change (I would though )

Ha, yeah I have alot of scrubbiness left in me. It's left over from my uber scrubbiness from melee days.

 

[akkon888]

Tiers. Why do we need tiers? If a Metakinght and a Link are going up against each other, who would win? The answer is not definite. Metaknight would obviously prepare for fighting Link beforehand, and would learn all of its weaknesses. Link would learn all of Metaknight's weaknesses. These are assuming both players are of equal skill. If they are of equal skill, they theoretically would be at a stand still. Realistically, it would be up to whether the other player, lets say Link, knows the weaknesses of Metaknight more than the vice versa. That would determine the winner. Tiers are not really a table based on which player has better attacks, it to me is based on who has more deceptive, subtle weaknesses.

Example. Ike is low tier, right? Why is it low tier? Because it has obvious weaknesses. He is very slow. Now lets see someone like Snake. He is high tier. Why? No one knows yet, except for the fact he has a weak recovery. If people would train more they would see the amount of weaknesses different characters have. In the end, though, the amount of weakness, and the amount of strength, would be the same. It's just that some weaknesses are much harder to find than others. Heck, Metaknight's weakness might be that everyone gets cocky playing him, and they don't try as hard, leading to a loss. Of course that was a joke, but do you see where I'm going here?

The so called tier list is also created by how easy it is to master a character. Snake is very easy to master, he is also easy to use. That makes him high tier. Metaknight is the same deal. Very easy to master. Ike, not so much. You have to learn how to adapt to his weaknesses, but once that's through, he is of the same power as Metaknight. Same with Link. Master his weaknesses, and you have a character perfectly capable of dealing with Metaknight etc. See where I'm going with this? They all have the same power, but some people are complaining that they are low tier. They just haven't adapted to the weaknesses of the character.

So, basically, all characters have the same power, some are much more easy to harness than others. No matter how you slice it, Ganondorf will be = to Metaknight, etc. Tier lists are an invalid way of predicting power of characters. So if any of you want to make an arguement, please do so. This is a forum. It was built for disagreements and discussions. Don't say STFU U SUCK MK PWNS UR IKES PEOPLES. None of that. I conclude this post now.

 

[Snowstalker]

GOD:

Meta Knight

TOO OBVIOUS.

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
Marth
Wario
ROB

Yes, I'm serious about Wario being above R.O.B, let alone being in Top. He has the 3rd best tourney results by a long shot. It isn't bias, cuz I don't really like him.

HIGH:

Lucario
Olimar
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Toon Link

Not much to say here, but Olimar might be a bit high.

MIDDLE:

Zelda
Pit
Peach
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Bowser
Fox
Lucas
Mario
Sheik

Yeah, I think that Princess Toadstool is high-mid material.

LOW:

Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Sonic
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

I moved Ganon above Link after playing with the King of Evil a little bit.

BOTTOM:

Link
Captian Falcon

Poor Captian Falcon. He still rules, though.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Tiers. Why do we need tiers? If a Metakinght and a Link are going up against each other, who would win? The answer is not definite. Metaknight would obviously prepare for fighting Link beforehand, and would learn all of its weaknesses. Link would learn all of Metaknight's weaknesses. These are assuming both players are of equal skill. If they are of equal skill, they theoretically would be at a stand still. Realistically, it would be up to whether the other player, lets say Link, knows the weaknesses of Metaknight more than the vice versa. That would determine the winner. Tiers are not really a table based on which player has better attacks, it to me is based on who has more deceptive, subtle weaknesses.

Link has MANY more weaknesses than MK. Are you denying this?

Example. Ike is low tier, right? Why is it low tier? Because it has obvious weaknesses. He is very slow. Now lets see someone like Snake. He is high tier. Why? No one knows yet, except for the fact he has a weak recovery. If people would train more they would see the amount of weaknesses different characters have. In the end, though, the amount of weakness, and the amount of strength, would be the same. It's just that some weaknesses are much harder to find than others. Heck, Metaknight's weakness might be that everyone gets cocky playing him, and they don't try as hard, leading to a loss. Of course that was a joke, but do you see where I'm going here?

Just because everyone has advantages and disadvantages doesn't mean they add up to the same thing. How many times have you played a balanced fighting game?

The so called tier list is also created by how easy it is to master a character. Snake is very easy to master, he is also easy to use. That makes him high tier. Metaknight is the same deal. Very easy to master.

O_o

o_O

No.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Tiers. Why do we need tiers? If a Metakinght and a Link are going up against each other, who would win? The answer is not definite. Metaknight would obviously prepare for fighting Link beforehand, and would learn all of its weaknesses. Link would learn all of Metaknight's weaknesses. These are assuming both players are of equal skill. If they are of equal skill, they theoretically would be at a stand still. Realistically, it would be up to whether the other player, lets say Link, knows the weaknesses of Metaknight more than the vice versa. That would determine the winner. Tiers are not really a table based on which player has better attacks, it to me is based on who has more deceptive, subtle weaknesses.

Example. Ike is low tier, right? Why is it low tier? Because it has obvious weaknesses. He is very slow. Now lets see someone like Snake. He is high tier. Why? No one knows yet, except for the fact he has a weak recovery. If people would train more they would see the amount of weaknesses different characters have. In the end, though, the amount of weakness, and the amount of strength, would be the same. It's just that some weaknesses are much harder to find than others. Heck, Metaknight's weakness might be that everyone gets cocky playing him, and they don't try as hard, leading to a loss. Of course that was a joke, but do you see where I'm going here?

The so called tier list is also created by how easy it is to master a character. Snake is very easy to master, he is also easy to use. That makes him high tier. Metaknight is the same deal. Very easy to master. Ike, not so much. You have to learn how to adapt to his weaknesses, but once that's through, he is of the same power as Metaknight. Same with Link. Master his weaknesses, and you have a character perfectly capable of dealing with Metaknight etc. See where I'm going with this? They all have the same power, but some people are complaining that they are low tier. They just haven't adapted to the weaknesses of the character.

So, basically, all characters have the same power, some are much more easy to harness than others. No matter how you slice it, Ganondorf will be = to Metaknight, etc. Tier lists are an invalid way of predicting power of characters. So if any of you want to make an arguement, please do so. This is a forum. It was built for disagreements and discussions. Don't say STFU U SUCK MK PWNS UR IKES PEOPLES. None of that. I conclude this post now.

I see what you mean. But I will still have to agree with some stuff.

Yes, everyone has weaknesses, and as long as you know and abuse these weaknesses, tiers dont matter much. BUT, in order to learn how to 'abuse' these weaknesses more, what happens to the player? He gets better, and gets more skill. A more skilled player should beat a lower skiller player. So there still is no balance.

So, example is when u said ganon=MK... not really. In order for ganon to = MK, ganon has to know more/be better with his character, therefore ganon's player gets better. So it's not JUST ganon=MK, it should be: Ganon + more skill/exp = MK.

And Tier Lists aren't about predicting how good a character is. Its about how good the character is in the present time, and also how good they are doing in tournaments. No, easier characters AREN'T higher because they're easier. It's because they're better in the CURRENT metagame. Harder chars = takes longer to develop 'perfect' metagame, therefore they are currently lower since Brawl is only a few months old. And they are also easier only because they are better, and therefore you don't have to try as hard.

So ya... if anything's confusing let me know cus i typed this in like a min and gotta do more hw lol.

And so therefore, when you said that the winner of Link vs MK is the one who knows the others' weaknesses more, yes that is partially correct. But it's not because each character is EQUAL, its because the PLAYER is BETTER.

note: i used caps where it should be in italian, i used caps cus its easier lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

The so called tier list is also created by how easy it is to master a character.

No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyVLKgr3BEQ

 

[cutter]

tires don exits

Sorry, that's all I'm reading.

 

[UzakiuzuG]

GOD:

Meta Knight-wtf was they thinking?

TOO OBVIOUS.

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco-due to spam
Marth-priority
Wario
ROB-spam

Yes, I'm serious about Wario being above R.O.B, let alone being in Top. He has the 3rd best tourney results by a long shot. It isn't bias, cuz I don't really like him.

HIGH:

Lucario
Olimar- Way too much range.
Kirby -how is he higher than Sonic?
Donkey Kong- grab and throw off stage >_>
Pikachu- spam of thunder shock
Diddy Kong-banana
Ice Climbers-chaingrabs
Wolf
Toon Link

Not much to say here, but Olimar might be a bit high.

MIDDLE:

Zelda WHa?
Pit
Peach
Luigi-high
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Bowser=Low bottom
Fox-will be high if they can find some at's
Lucas
Mario
Sheik

Yeah, I think that Princess Toadstool is high-mid material.

LOW:

Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Sonic=High tier soon top =/
Samus
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

I moved Ganon above Link after playing with the King of Evil a little bit.

BOTTOM:

Link= Mid- High overall great just recovery
Captian Falcon=at least mid tier before this is over

Poor Captian Falcon. He still rules, though.

I added to what you said I think is why they are there. Not being mean just my opinion.

 

[akkon888]

Sorry, that's all I'm reading.

Cutter I never said that did you purposely edit that? The Tires don exits?

The so called tier list is also created by how easy it is to master a character.

No.

First off, I knew I would get this arguement. That's good, it's what a forum is about.

Alright, if you look at the patterns, you will see easier characters are higher tier as of now. If you don't see that then please enlighten me and tell me what tiers are actually based on.

Ragnarok, I don't think we have a disagreement. I was speaking over time, and I know that as of now Metaknight is top tier because not all weaknesses have been found. We've barely scratched the surface, and if we find all weaknesses, the tiers will be equal. You also must realize that MK must have skill to destroy any person, right?

EDIT: Sorry if the previous determination was inadequate. What I meant to say is that the tiers directly correspond to the amount of weaknesses found as of now, not exactly the same as the skill required to master a character. This would more so be a perfect tier reason. MK=Little Weakness as of now= high tier. Ike=Much weakness as of now=low tier. This will even out over time as more and more weaknesses are found.

And Zinc, you refuse to put the words AS OF NOW in your examples. I of course agree that AS OF NOW I agree that Link has more weaknesses. But if you progress through the game and find more, they will in the end become equal. Answer to third question is above.

I am glad this debate has so far, no flamers. Non-flamers welcome.

 

[Galaxy]

I added to what you said I think is why they are there. Not being mean just my opinion.

You really think Sonic is going to be high tier...? And Kirby isn't bad. Definitely higher than Sonic. (no offense.)

 

[Zinc Elemental]

And Zinc, you refuse to put the words AS OF NOW in your examples. I of course agree that AS OF NOW I agree that Link has more weaknesses. But if you progress through the game and find more, they will in the end become equal. Answer to third question is above.

Fine. As of now, there is a clear difference between Link and MK. Link appears right now to be FAR worse. I suppose, hypothetically, everyone's metagame could suddenly change so drastically that everyone is even. Then again, hypothetically, quantum mechanics makes it possible for you to walk through a wall, though it is impossibly unlikely.

There's has never been a perfectly balanced game. There never will be. Even if there will be some day, there is no way Brawl will be that game. There is simply too big of a gap between the top and bottom chraracters.

What was the third question?

 

[akkon888]

Sorry not third question of yours, third response of yours. And yes, it will not be balanced any time soon. But the reason quantum mechanics work is that 2 or more alike facts are used to defy a real resolution.
-You are part liquid
-You can walk
=Defying real solution and walking through walls.
Sorry that was off topic.

 

[AlexX]

You really think Sonic is going to be high tier...? And Kirby isn't bad. Definitely higher than Sonic. (no offense.)

A lot of Sonic mains keep going on about how Sonic is the best at punishing, the best at gimping, the best at chasing, and etc., so that's probably why they think he's high-top material. I don't think he's poor, but I don't think he's all that great either, but apparently the Sonic mains think he's really good, so maybe I'm just missing something...

 

[YagamiLight]

A lot of Sonic mains keep going on about how Sonic is the best at punishing, the best at gimping, the best at chasing, and etc., so that's probably why they think he's high-top material. I don't think he's poor, but I don't think he's all that great either, but apparently the Sonic mains think he's really good, so maybe I'm just missing something...

Well, all the mains of characters think that their character is the best at something, but rarely is it absolutely true. I'd much rather have MK for punishing and gimping than Sonic, actually.

Another case is the Yoshi fanbase. Don't even get me started on those guys.

 

[Mmac]

Another case is the Yoshi fanbase. Don't even get me started on those guys.

No, please do. I'm bored out of my mind! >_<

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Sorry not third question of yours, third response of yours. And yes, it will not be balanced any time soon. But the reason quantum mechanics work is that 2 or more alike facts are used to defy a real resolution.
-You are part liquid
-You can walk
=Defying real solution and walking through walls.
Sorry that was off topic.

Errrrr, you need to read up on your quantum mechanics. Go look up quantum tunneling. Particles have a small chance of moving through solid objects since their probability field extends through solid objects like walls. The odds if this happening with EVERY particle in your body is extraordinarily low. It has nothing to do with liquids. O_o

Yeah, so, uh, I'm not a physics nerd.

/off topic

It won't ever be balanced. It's simply nearly impossible to take characters that are as different from one another as all the characters in brawl are and make them completely even.

No, please do. I'm bored out of my mind! >_<

The Yoshi fanbase is very dedicated to finding new ways to improve Yoshi's game against the rest of the cast.
That work?

 

[YagamiLight]

No, please do. I'm bored out of my mind! >_<

Haha, if you wish. I didn't particularly mean that the entire Yoshi main population is at fault, but there are some symptoms that the Yoshi fanbase does exhibit in strong quantities.

First off, there's the omni-present "My character is the top **** syndrome". While most players should at least think highly of their character (I, for one, don't hide the fact that I think Ike is a good, solid character), most Yoshi players portray him as something he's not.

He's not especially good at causing damage, he's not especially good at killing, he has what is probably Brawl's worst out of shield game, a pretty horrible roll and a poor shield as well. What he does have going for him, however, is that he is ridiculously cute.

He's not all that bad of a character, and I respect people who use him (Well, that is), but I think that when Yoshi players drive a focus onto the side courses (His ATs, his chain grab), they forget about the main dinner itself - Yoshi is pretty poor at both damage racking, range, killing and his recovery is nothing to write home about.

It's not that I have some sort of inherent bias against Yoshi, it's just that I think that Yoshi mains should probably realize that there are a number of characters better than him, and that he may very well remain in low tier forever, even with a pretty cool spike release on Meta Knight and Snake or whatever. The base character is what matters, I'd say.

Feel free to pick apart my post, I've got an hour or two to debate a bit.

 

[bigman40]

Another case is the Yoshi fanbase. Don't even get me started on those guys.

Huh? Excuse me.....What? I don't recall any Yoshi mainer saying that Yoshi is the **** tier. At most, we've said that he's going to end out at mid-mid.

Bad at racking damage? Unless your getting on someone that said that he's super good at comboing, then I might see your reason. However, he's not bad at racking damage. He's mediocre at racking damage (might be a little better whenever I master the DR), and nothing else. Adding damage to an opponent isn't the problem, it's the lack of killing options that does hold him back a little (not a lot, just a little).

I agree about the shield, No one should really be arguing about it (unless another mainer knows a different way to make it good), but pivot grabs are a good replacement for that lack of defense. Spaced correctly, they can stop almost anything that comes at him.

Hmm.....I believe that the ATs are what help make the character better/worse. Am I wrong about that? Cause if we just look at what you just said then we can easily say that MK is **** everyone tier, Snake is superman tier (just the power..and a tad speed), D3, Falco, and ICs are CG to death tier, and so on...

 

[Mmac]

First off, there's the omni-present "My character is the top **** syndrome". While most players should at least think highly of their character (I, for one, don't hide the fact that I think Ike is a good, solid character), most Yoshi players portray him as something he's not.

I don't think this is a stereotype of Yoshi, but rather a Stereotype of a person who only knows of their character only and doesn't know how he stacks against the rest of the roster. Anyone who is "New" says this about their character. Plenty of players do this and even those who main the Higher Tier characters (Excluding MetaKnight)

He's not especially good at causing damage, he's not especially good at killing, he has what is probably Brawl's worst out of shield game, a pretty horrible roll and a poor shield as well. What he does have going for him, however, is that he is ridiculously cute.

Actually, Yoshi is one of the better damage at racking up damage. He's got plenty of multihit attacks, which can cancel out into various combos. Not to mention he has Grab Release stuff on half the characters, and his Dthrow can setup more Combos decently. He's also got a decent projectile which is good for anti-camping, approaches, anti-air, and harassment in general.

The other stuff is true to an extent. He also has one of the best grabs in the game, A good defencive game even with his craptastic shield, Devastating Grab Release Combos, Fast attacks, Ledge Spam, and against a great Yoshi, his Recovery is practically ingimpable.

He's not all that bad of a character, and I respect people who use him (Well, that is), but I think that when Yoshi players drive a focus onto the side courses (His ATs, his chain grab), they forget about the main dinner itself - Yoshi is pretty poor at both damage racking, range, killing and his recovery is nothing to write home about.

His damage racking, Like I said, isn't actually a problem at all. Neither is his Range (He actually got pretty good range. In fact, his range is probably longer than about half the roster. His Recovery is severely underrated. Theoretically, Yoshi is practically impossible to gimp if he has his Double Jump, which 95% of the time, he does.

It's not that I have some sort of inherent bias against Yoshi, it's just that I think that Yoshi mains should probably realize that there are a number of characters better than him, and that he may very well remain in low tier forever, even with a pretty cool spike release on Meta Knight and Snake or whatever. The base character is what matters, I'd say.

Feel free to pick apart my post, I've got an hour or two to debate a bit.

It's hard to get my point across as well without myself being accused to being Biased, given that Yoshi has the negative reputation he has. I do accept that Yoshi will probably never reach the top spot, and some characters will always be better than him, but deserves alot more credit that people give him for

 

[Dark Sonic]

A lot of Sonic mains keep going on about how Sonic is the best at punishing, the best at gimping, the best at chasing, and etc., so that's probably why they think he's high-top material. I don't think he's poor, but I don't think he's all that great either, but apparently the Sonic mains think he's really good, so maybe I'm just missing something...

Don't pull stuff out of your ***. Sonic mains have never placed Sonic above the bottom of mid tier (a few from the top of low tier is where I personally see him)

He's good at punishing, and good at gimping. He's also pretty good at chasing thanks to a decent priority fair and uair.

But he's got his obvious flaws. His kill moves are a little hard to land, and not too strong when compared to others kill moves (though the stereotype blows this way out of proportion), and he does have some issues when it comes to defensive options. His approaching is decent with all his cool cancels, but it's nothing like Marth or Metaknight's kind of pressure game. As a result his game has to focus around bating whiffs to get his attacks in, and he'll be racking damage slowly overall (though he's not taking that much damage either thanks to that up B).

It's hard to get my point across as well without myself being accused to being Biased, given that Yoshi has the negative reputation he has. I do accept that Yoshi will probably never reach the top spot, and some characters will always be better than him, but deserves alot more credit that people give him for

By more credit, you mean like mid tier or something right? 'Cause I don't think he's got what it takes for high tier.

 

[YagamiLight]

Huh? Excuse me.....What? I don't recall any Yoshi mainer saying that Yoshi is the **** tier. At most, we've said that he's going to end out at mid-mid.

That still rather high, but at that point it becomes subjective, so let's not get into that.

Bad at racking damage? Unless your getting on someone that said that he's super good at comboing, then I might see your reason. However, he's not bad at racking damage. He's mediocre at racking damage (might be a little better whenever I master the DR), and nothing else. Adding damage to an opponent isn't the problem, it's the lack of killing options that does hold him back a little (not a lot, just a little).
Hmm, I might as well rephrase. He's got fairly decent damage racking options, but they pale in comparison to other characters. The Forward Smash and the Up Aerial are his main source of kills, and both are rather visible in advance, and still not that strong.

I agree about the shield, No one should really be arguing about it (unless another mainer knows a different way to make it good), but pivot grabs are a good replacement for that lack of defense. Spaced correctly, they can stop almost anything that comes at him.
Point taken, he has a nice Pivot grab.

Hmm.....I believe that the ATs are what help make the character better/worse. Am I wrong about that? Cause if we just look at what you just said then we can easily say that MK is **** everyone tier, Snake is superman tier (just the power..and a tad speed), D3, Falco, and ICs are CG to death tier, and so on...
They certainly do help the character, but in non-extreme cases, they shouldn't be the important part of that character.

I don't think this is a stereotype of Yoshi, but rather a Stereotype of a person who only knows of their character only and doesn't know how he stacks against the rest of the roster. Anyone who is "New" says this about their character. Plenty of players do this and even those who main the Higher Tier characters (Excluding MetaKnight)

Even MK mains like to overblow their match-up numbers, I'd say. But I'll concede, it's not just a Yoshi thing.

Actually, Yoshi is one of the better damage at racking up damage. He's got plenty of multihit attacks, which can cancel out into various combos. Not to mention he has Grab Release stuff on half the characters, and his Dthrow can setup more Combos decently. He's also got a decent projectile which is good for anti-camping, approaches, anti-air, and harassment in general.

Yeah, I admitted above that I should have used the term "fairly decent" to describe his damage racking capabilities. Nevertheless, even with his good grab releases and such, he still lacks killing options to take advantage of that.

The other stuff is true to an extent. He also has one of the best grabs in the game, A good defencive game even with his craptastic shield, Devastating Grab Release Combos, Fast attacks, Ledge Spam, and against a great Yoshi, his Recovery is practically ingimpable.

"One of the best grabs in the game is a pretty gross overstatement, I must say. Neither his dash grab nor his standing grab are particularly effective, but they are both long. Chaingrab wise, you can do much better with stuff like D3, Falco, Pikachu or the Ice Climbers. Damage wise, Yoshi is pretty much in between Marth and Ike for throw damage. (Namely, not a whole lot). His attacks are fast enough, I'll give you that. His recovery with the second jump is pretty decent, but it's a constant worry to be hit out of the second jump, then you've got the vertical ascension of Donkey Kong with your egg toss.



His damage racking, Like I said, isn't actually a problem at all. Neither is his Range (He actually got pretty good range. In fact, his range is probably longer than about half the roster. His Recovery is severely underrated. Theoretically, Yoshi is practically impossible to gimp if he has his Double Jump, which 95% of the time, he does.

His range is average, I guess. It's not worse than some, for sure. It's probably my slight Ike bias here, I tend to look at anything that doesn't wield Ragnell as having bad range. Actually, Yoshi does lose out to the disjointed hitbox users, and some other ones as well. His recovery I discussed above.


It's hard to get my point across as well without myself being accused to being Biased, given that Yoshi has the negative reputation he has. I do accept that Yoshi will probably never reach the top spot, and some characters will always be better than him, but deserves alot more credit that people give him for
I'm perfectly familiar with negative reputations, mind you. Yoshi is deserving of better, but how much better is debatable. It's just that the hyper about Yoshi seems...undeserved.

If my credibility happens to come into question, rest assured that I read the Yoshi boards on occasion and do have friendly matches (Albeit online) with what I believe is a good Yoshi user. If necessary, I'll post a link or so to the matches he's recorded. I don't think it's required, as I believe I'm looking at the situation fairly.

 

[Gindler]

Just thought I'd point out....yoshi does have one of the best (if not the best) grabs in the game, and it's not his standing grab (which is atrocious), his dashing grab (meh), but obviously his pivot grab which stops alot of annoying stuff (most notably snake's boost smash in my experience). and egg lays kinda a nice "grab" =P

His range is not bad at all, ftilt, and dtilt have quite the reach, and egg lay if anyone besides me uses that as a real attack...obviously no where near Ike, but then again who is?

Recovery...I never worry about being hit out of my 2nd jump unless they have a super ridiculous aerial (lucarios Dair maybe?), I can always do a rising air dodge if I have to.

 

[bigman40]

Alright. You mostly agreed to most of the points made from me. Mid-Mid is the highest that he can make, note I didn't say should be there right now, but later when he gets results to back up his stuff.

As for the main dish thing, yes, the flaws are obvious for him. Yoshi has trouble finishing kills, establishing a very solid defense as other characters can (the shield factor is when I'm using. We can normally get around that by avoiding shields unless it's absolutely needed), and approaching with safe moves when he's outranged (yet, isn't that a problem with most characters?). These flaws are what holds him back from easily being higher. When you say that other characters should be higher than him, why put them there when they get destroyed by the top/high characters? Yoshi gets countered (hard counters are 3:7) by G&W, Lucario, and maybe Falco (I think it's being looked at again), while the other characters you claim should be higher might have more hard counters than Yoshi (I can add in the rest of the tiers if you want me too, but Yoshi only gets hard countered by one more character which is Link).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Marth vs. Yoshi is pretty bad too isn't it (like 65:35)?

 

[MistRune]

congrats, guys. I've been tracking this topic and now I just joined to get a word in. Why no love for Zelda? She's gotta be high tier at least. I mean, not only does she pwn, she can reflect THUNDER!!! She IS light, but when a lightning kick connects, it ends in a ko almost every time (at least if I edgeguard).

 

[AlexX]

Don't pull stuff out of your ***. Sonic mains have never placed Sonic above the bottom of mid tier (a few from the top of low tier is where I personally see him)

I'm not pulling out anything. You personally haven't said it, but plenty of Sonic mains in this topic have talked up Sonic as if he were worthy of the high-tiers.

 

[Mmac]

"One of the best grabs in the game is a pretty gross overstatement, I must say. Neither his dash grab nor his standing grab are particularly effective, but they are both long. Chaingrab wise, you can do much better with stuff like D3, Falco, Pikachu or the Ice Climbers. Damage wise, Yoshi is pretty much in between Marth and Ike for throw damage. (Namely, not a whole lot).

There's a difference between Best Grabs and Best Throws. Yeah, his standing grab is one of the worst in the game (Thank god we have Pivot Grabs now), and his Running grab is nothing to be proud of either. His Pivot Grab is more than enough and is what I'm referring to. I'm also referring to the Grab itself and not what you can do with the throws.

His attacks are fast enough, I'll give you that. His recovery with the second jump is pretty decent, but it's a constant worry to be hit out of the second jump, then you've got the vertical ascension of Donkey Kong with your egg toss.

This is simply eliminated by just simply staying calm. I never panic when recovering, even if I get hit. His Egg Tosses should be treated more like his "2nd Jump" rather than his 3rd. Kinda like how the other Multiple Jump characters work, just in reverse.

His range is average, I guess. It's not worse than some, for sure. It's probably my slight Ike bias here, I tend to look at anything that doesn't wield Ragnell as having bad range. Actually, Yoshi does lose out to the disjointed hitbox users, and some other ones as well. His recovery I discussed above.

Yeah, Yoshi generally doesn't do well against people with long range and with the speed to back it up. Excluding Wolf and Toon Link, almost all of his bad matchups are those with Long Reaches, and with the speed to back it up. Also we have little to none exploits on him. Honestly, as good as Falco used to do against him, if Yoshi has a 0% Kill on him thats rather easy to do, there is no way it can be his advantage anymore.

Marth vs. Yoshi is pretty bad too isn't it (like 65:35)?

I'm not sure actually. after knowing how to deal with him, he seems to be more like a 6:4 matchup actually. I actually have more problems with Wolf and ROB than Marth, and the other Mains seems to agree also

congrats, guys. I've been tracking this topic and now I just joined to get a word in. Why no love for Zelda? She's gotta be high tier at least. I mean, not only does she pwn, she can reflect THUNDER!!! She IS light, but when a lightning kick connects, it ends in a ko almost every time (at least if I edgeguard).

Eh, Zelda is a pretty cool girl, Eh reflects thunder and dosen't afride of anything

Anyone with a Reflector can reflect Thunder, and you didn't really describe how she "pwns". Lighting Kick is good, but it's pretty hard to connect at times, and can be unreliable

 

[YagamiLight]

Just thought I'd point out....yoshi does have one of the best (if not the best) grabs in the game, and it's not his standing grab (which is atrocious), his dashing grab (meh), but obviously his pivot grab which stops alot of annoying stuff (most notably snake's boost smash in my experience). and egg lays kinda a nice "grab" =P

Yeah, he does have that very nice Pivot grab, and the special grab is noteworthy since it can be used in the air.

His range is not bad at all, ftilt, and dtilt have quite the reach, and egg lay if anyone besides me uses that as a real attack...obviously no where near Ike, but then again who is?

Yeah, I agree with you on all counts.

Recovery...I never worry about being hit out of my 2nd jump unless they have a super ridiculous aerial (lucarios Dair maybe?), I can always do a rising air dodge if I have to.
The main problem I have with Yoshi's recovery can be seen in the first stock of the following video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-JelF1nq4E
It doesn't have to be a fantastic aerial to kill Yoshi that way, just a well timed one.

Alright. You mostly agreed to most of the points made from me. Mid-Mid is the highest that he can make, note I didn't say should be there right now, but later when he gets results to back up his stuff.
Fair enough. You spoke mainly the truth, so I had no reason to oppose it.

As for the main dish thing, yes, the flaws are obvious for him. Yoshi has trouble finishing kills, establishing a very solid defense as other characters can (the shield factor is when I'm using. We can normally get around that by avoiding shields unless it's absolutely needed), and approaching with safe moves when he's outranged (yet, isn't that a problem with most characters?). These flaws are what holds him back from easily being higher. When you say that other characters should be higher than him, why put them there when they get destroyed by the top/high characters? Yoshi gets countered (hard counters are 3:7) by G&W, Lucario, and maybe Falco (I think it's being looked at again), while the other characters you claim should be higher might have more hard counters than Yoshi (I can add in the rest of the tiers if you want me too, but Yoshi only gets hard countered by one more character which is Link).
Yoshi still has a lot of disadvantages regardless, even if they aren't 7-3. Other than that, I see what you mean.

congrats, guys. I've been tracking this topic and now I just joined to get a word in. Why no love for Zelda? She's gotta be high tier at least. I mean, not only does she pwn, she can reflect THUNDER!!! She IS light, but when a lightning kick connects, it ends in a ko almost every time (at least if I edgeguard).

Ike's gotta be top tier at least. I mean, he can counter Thunder. He's susceptible to some chaingrabs, but when a forward smash connects, it results in a KO.

What you posted can be said for a bunch of characters, it makes Zelda no more special.

Edit:

There's a difference between Best Grabs and Best Throws. Yeah, his standing grab is one of the worst in the game (Thank god we have Pivot Grabs now), and his Running grab is nothing to be proud of either. His Pivot Grab is more than enough and is what I'm referring to. I'm also referring to the Grab itself and not what you can do with the throws.
Yeah, the grab itself is good. But when considering the grab game, you should probably consider the throws as well, as they are essentially linked.

This is simply eliminated by just simply staying calm. I never panic when recovering, even if I get hit. His Egg Tosses should be treated more like his "2nd Jump" rather than his 3rd. Kinda like how the other Multiple Jump characters work, just in reverse.
I believe you have a point. But will not being in a state of panic especially help? It is rather hard to deny that outside of the double jump, Yoshi's recovery is comparable to Popo's.



Yeah, Yoshi generally doesn't do well against people with long range and with the speed to back it up. Excluding Wolf and Toon Link, almost all of his bad matchups are those with Long Reaches, and with the speed to back it up. Also we have little to none exploits on him. Honestly, as good as Falco used to do against him, if Yoshi has a 0% Kill on him thats rather easy to do, there is no way it can be his advantage anymore.
With a 0 to death on falco, I find it hard for it to be a disadvantage as well. Points taken.