Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Snail]

Wario needs to be moved down seriously, why is no-one taking into account all the grab release ****? Ness and Lucas get infinited by 1 and a third characters and they get put down atleast a tier, Wario gets infinited by three regular characters, eight I think if he has no double jump and atleast half the cast get a free hit off it and he doesn't get moved down at ALL!?

He's still third in tournament results, behind Snake. If grab releases really crippled him that much, I'd think it would be visible in his tournament results. Apparently it doesn't really matter all that much :/

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Wario needs to be moved down seriously, why is no-one taking into account all the grab release ****? Ness and Lucas get infinited by 1 and a third characters and they get put down atleast a tier, Wario gets infinited by three regular characters, eight I think if he has no double jump and atleast half the cast get a free hit off it and he doesn't get moved down at ALL!?

Ness and Lucas are low for other reasons.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Ness and Lucas are low for other reasons.

I like your specificness. BEFORE THE GRAB RELEASE, NESS AND LUCAS WERE BOTTOM OF HIGH on most tier lists, you can look back and check. What I don't get is if people use the mentality when talking aobut NEss in tournament 'Just Pick Marth', why do they not use the same mentality on Wario with Yoshi or ZSS!?

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I like your specificness. BEFORE THE GRAB RELEASE, NESS AND LUCAS WERE BOTTOM OF HIGH on most tier lists, you can look back and check. What I don't get is if people use the mentality when talking aobut NEss in tournament 'Just Pick Marth', why do they not use the same mentality on Wario with Yoshi or ZSS!?

There has only been one official tier list. Whatever random people decided to do with Ness and Lucas doesn't show anything about their movement relative to the grab release.

Even without them, I can't imagine putting them anywhere above bottom of mid. I don't think the grab release is that much of a factor. Donkey Kong and Wario both get utterly ***** by grab shenanigans, and both are still quite high. I don't consider that a grab release would drop characters a tier....

 

[Blistering Speed]

Anywhere above bottom mid is unimaginable? You look at Ness and Lucas and they clearly are better then all of low and the vast majority of middle, if not all, and yet whenever they are put low, the reasoning is always the grab release. If it is so easy to counterpick Ness and Lucas, the same mentality should be applied to all characters infinited, all of DDD's infinited characters, Fox from Shiek, ZSS etc (though these are harder to get in), you get the idea. If reasoning is applied to one character and not to another, that will cause imbalance in the tier list.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Anywhere above bottom mid is unimaginable? You look at Ness and Lucas and they clearly are better then all of low and the vast majority of middle, if not all, and yet whenever they are put low, the reasoning is always the grab release. If it is so easy to counterpick Ness and Lucas, the same mentality should be applied to all characters infinited, all of DDD's infinited characters, Fox from Shiek, ZSS etc (though these are harder to get in), you get the idea. If reasoning is applied to one character and not to another, that will cause imbalance in the tier list.

Not better than yoshi.

Straight up.

 

[sniperfire]

Wario needs to be moved down seriously, why is no-one taking into account all the grab release ****? Ness and Lucas get infinited by 1 and a third characters and they get put down atleast a tier, Wario gets infinited by three regular characters, eight I think if he has no double jump and atleast half the cast get a free hit off it and he doesn't get moved down at ALL!?

Play Unit 721(on nintendohub)
Word on the street is his wario is dangerously beast

 

[MyNameIsRyan]

^This is true

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Anywhere above bottom mid is unimaginable? You look at Ness and Lucas and they clearly are better then all of low and the vast majority of middle, if not all, and yet whenever they are put low, the reasoning is always the grab release. If it is so easy to counterpick Ness and Lucas, the same mentality should be applied to all characters infinited, all of DDD's infinited characters, Fox from Shiek, ZSS etc (though these are harder to get in), you get the idea. If reasoning is applied to one character and not to another, that will cause imbalance in the tier list.

Ice Climbers are top tier! They're the only character Ice Climbers can't infinite!

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Umm wow... But IC's can't grab anyone because they have like the smallest grab range.

 

[Adapt]

Ice Climbers are top tier! They're the only character Ice Climbers can't infinite!

It would be amazing if you grab both enemy Ice Climbers with both of your Ice Climbers and then switch

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Umm wow... But IC's can't grab anyone because they have like the smallest grab range.

Oh yeah, I always forget how bad the grab game of the guys that can kill anyone but themselves from 0% is.

It would be amazing if you grab both enemy Ice Climbers with both of your Ice Climbers and then switch

That...doesn't....work?
Just content yourself with infiniting SoPo.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas is low tier. Most lucas mains admit it. Ness should be upperish mid tier i think, hes really good, crazy fair.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Lucas is low tier. Most lucas mains admit it. Ness should be upperish mid tier i think, hes really good, crazy fair.

Ness has a far superior fair, but that alone can't put him that far above Lucas.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ness is good amounts better than Lucas. Fair isn't the only reason but it's a very good one

 

[ShadowLink84]

Oh yeah, I always forget how bad the grab game of the guys that can kill anyone but themselves from 0% is.

one thng, good moves on their own is not hat constitutes good aerial game, ground game ,grab game etc etc.

It is how well they can be put to use.

For example Ganondorf has really nice aerials.
Uair has a nicely sized hitbox, is fast and powerful. his Bair is fast and strong. Dair spikes.
Nair hits twice and has good range.

But his aerial game is poor.

Just because the IC's can CG someone and kill doesn't consitute a good grabgame.

DDD doesn't have a great grabgame just ebcause he can CG. it is because of how he can land the Cg and what he can do after wards.

Same for Falco and the IC's whod espite having small grab range, have several methods of landing the grab. Several of which take advantage of the strong defense options.

 

[choknater]

being able to do great damage from one grab = not having a good grab game?

protip: being able to do great damage from one grab allows some sort of spacing control because it forces the opponents to have to be able to get around the grabs. ic's, ddd, and falco strike fear into opponents coming into close range because they don't want to get grabbed. this allows them to up the ante in longer range spacing, while controlling whatever happens in close range. that, IMO, is a good grab game

 

[sniperfire]

IC can do amazing things with their grab.Thats why they have such a small grab range. If they had a bigger one, they would be broken beyond repair.(lol solid snake)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Falco also has some Pivot stuff, which makes his grabs more usable than ICs. And lol King Dededes grab game is so F***ing insane. That range is just sick and one "hit"+bthrow are free ~20% dmg

 

[Zinc Elemental]

being able to do great damage from one grab = not having a good grab game?

protip: being able to do great damage from one grab allows some sort of spacing control because it forces the opponents to have to be able to get around the grabs. ic's, ddd, and falco strike fear into opponents coming into close range because they don't want to get grabbed. this allows them to up the ante in longer range spacing, while controlling whatever happens in close range. that, IMO, is a good grab game

Choknater knows his grab games.

Dedede can get get a grab relatively easily and do a good deal of damage off of it. ICs have more touble getting a grab, but (assuming the player is good), the fact that one grab doesn't mean 20 or 30 or 40 damage but instead an entire stock, that makes their grab something to be feared. You can slip up and get grabbed by DDD and still come back. You want to be very careful not to make that mistake against ICs.

 

[choknater]

yup. what other characters have against IC's is spacing ability.

sure, if you're playing against DDD or kirby or olimar or something who have really good shield grabs... "don't get grabbed" might not be totally possible

however IC's have a very short grab range and they must be together to perform 0-death cg's. this is why characters with superior range and spacing tactics can easily beat IC's. G&W and Snake are prime examples.

ic's have a short grab range... but an amazing grab game because of their cg's and combos to come out of those grabs, providing match control in the close range

 

[ShadowLink84]

being able to do great damage from one grab = not having a good grab game?

protip: being able to do great damage from one grab allows some sort of spacing control because it forces the opponents to have to be able to get around the grabs. ic's, ddd, and falco strike fear into opponents coming into close range because they don't want to get grabbed. this allows them to up the ante in longer range spacing, while controlling whatever happens in close range. that, IMO, is a good grab game

Not true because under such logic falcon punch and warlock punch would all be considered good moves.

DDD has nasty grab range even though he doesn't really setup into them easily, he has a much better time getting a grab due to the large grab range.

Falco has his aerials, laser, reflector for helping him setup grabs as well.

IC's also have setups.

Just doing great damage is a poor reason.

The opponent doesn't fear the CG they fear the fact that the IC's can setup into a CG reliably.

The IC's don't have a great grab game just because they can take a stock off a single grab, its because they can land that grab reliably along with what they do afterwards.

Yeah its really nice that Dk can kill with a 9 wind DK Punch at below 70%, but it wouldn't mean anything if the move came out as quickly as Ganon's Utilt.

hell the main reason that Marth's Side B is so much better is because he can use it reliably while in melee, the thing was seldom used despite the fact it could cause a good amount of damage when used.

Don't give protips either since it gives one the appearance of being condescending when clearly there is no need to be.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Don't give protips either since it gives one the appearance of being condescending when clearly there is no need to be.
___________________
"Those who know what they're talking about and can have intelligent discussions talk,
Those who don't should just shut up and leave Smashboards." - Yuna, 2008

Originally Posted by Memphischains
I bet if every "good" sonic came together and did the fusion dance all at the same time we would still suck

Number of unintelligent responses:1,937

lolz

10condescendinglolz

 

[ShadowLink84]

lolz

10condescendinglolz

As long as I myself am not being condescending its no issue.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Number of unintelligent responses:1,937

10morelolz?

EDIT: regardless of your signature, i've seen you be pretty condescending pretty often. your signature was just the easiest thing for me to quote mine.

 

[ShadowLink84]

10morelolz?

EDIT: regardless of your signature, i've seen you be pretty condescending pretty often. your signature was just the easiest thing for me to quote mine.

Its not hard to point out a response that is stupid.

For example my favorite response from a debate was

"All life is sacred therefore to have an abortion is the equivalent to the murder of another human being".

Is that not a foolish response?
Or my favorite

"Sonic has no approaches so just needle camp him".

Now there are two moer things.

1. I did not accuse choknater of being condescending.
2. Bring up the posts where I was being condescending please and I shall address them.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

no thanks, not that important to me

just thought i'd point it out. also, one last lol at calling someone's opinion, based off of their religious beliefs most likely, on a controversial issue, a stupid response. and then telling us that's not condescending! i'm not religious btw.

 

[ShadowLink84]

no thanks, not that important to me

just thought i'd point it out. also, one last lol at calling someone's opinion, based off of their religious beliefs most likely, on a controversial issue, a stupid response. and then telling us that's not condescending! i'm not religious btw.

Really?
I'll explain to you why it is stupid then.

"All life is sacred therefore to have an abortion is the equivalent to the murder of another human being"

For one if we take it literally then the person themselves should stop living because their own behavior results in the deaths of thousands of germs.

Which means no doctors, no eating, no nothing.
I find that funny.

Seriously though, for one basing ones opinion purely on religion is stupid. The main reason for this is because religion is inconsistent in its teachings. So to say all life is sacred based one ones religion, contradicts several other teachings of that respective religion.

Not only that the classification of murder from a religion may differ from the classification we use.
Much like the argument against homosexuality that is popularly used.

So saying that is the equivalent of saying "Because I said so" which is also stupid.

Tl;dr: Unless the opinion is based on religion is solid, it is the equivalent of tossing a bum of a dirty rag to use for cleansing.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

^ lol ^

like i said, i'm not religious. i'm an atheist who thinks religion in general is ridiculous. that doesn't make it any less condescending.

... but now we're getting too far off topic

 

[Espy Rose]

lol, religion.

I always found it hilarious that the number one killer, according to the Bible, was God himself.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

we're all going to get modded if people keep up this religion talk in this thread >_>

 

[ShadowLink84]

^ lol ^

like i said, i'm not religious. i'm an atheist who thinks religion in general is ridiculous. that doesn't make it any less condescending.

... but now we're getting too far off topic

Not really since I view it as stupid due to really bad reasoning not due to superiority.

 

[SaxDude93]

First time I've been here in a while. What's the general estimate of the tier list look like? Any major changes?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ the "official tier list" is in teh general brawl section

 

[Snowstalker]

GOD:

Meta Knight

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
Wario

HIGH:

Lucario
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Kirby
Olimar
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Toon Link
Pit

MIDDLE:

Zelda
Peach
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Fox
Bowser
Sheik
Lucas
Mario

LOW:

Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Samus
Sonic
Ike
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf

BOTTOM:

Link
Captian Falcon

 

[Veng]

Wow tier list discussion talking about religious stuff.....

also just a side note i thin lucario and pika should be right by each other, because they both have similar potential.

 

[chetjan]

shiek is pretty good on teams though, but not as good as dedede

 

[Gindler]

Yeah, samus is pretty beast in teams too. That Dair is ridiculous!

So is yoshi actually. throw to Flutter kick can be quite destructive......

Of course teams don't matter to the tier list. But the tier list doesn't matter in teams either since everyone seems to be great.

 

[DanGR]

olimar is too high. lower him down to bottom of high, just above pit imo

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dan? Since when do you think Olimar is too high? (I used to think you were biased but ey ur kewl!)