Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Mmac]

FYI, our Matchup Thread is in a need of a overhaul. It's not really updating to the recent discoveries, plus some people generally disagree with some of the matchups

 

[MistRune]

not saying she's special (who IS anyways?), I'm just saying she's a little underestimated. You compared her to Ike claiming he's a top tier cause he can counter thunder too. She hits pikachu with thunder and nayru's love is MUCH more reliable than counter (offensively as well). If Ike can be slow and top tier then why cant Zelda at least be mid-low high?

 

[bigman40]

Marth vs. Yoshi is pretty bad too isn't it (like 65:35)?

Nope. It's agreed that it was a 40:60 disadvantage for Yoshi.

 

[Mmac]

Zelda isn't being underestimated at all. I think she's perfect where she is. She's a good character, but really doesn't have anything outstanding which stands her out from the rest of the cast.

Personally, I think Ike is being alittle overestimated though

 

[YagamiLight]

not saying she's special (who IS anyways?), I'm just saying she's a little underestimated. You compared her to Ike claiming he's a top tier cause he can counter thunder too. She hits pikachu with thunder and nayru's love is MUCH more reliable than counter (offensively as well). If Ike can be slow and top tier then why cant Zelda at least be mid-low high?

I was joking when I said Ike was top tier, by the way.

Personally, I think Ike is being a little overestimated though

Well, I did aim a slanderous remark at Yoshi, so I guess it's only right that I defend Ike as well. State what you think is overrated about him, if you'd like.

 

[MistRune]

Zelda isn't being underestimated at all. I think she's perfect where she is. She's a good character, but really doesn't have anything outstanding which stands her out from the rest of the cast.

Personally, I think Ike is being alittle overestimated though

lol i agree about Ike. Zelda has an interesting moveset and racks up damage very quickly to an experienced player. Lightning kicks take practice but aren't difficult to hit with after some practice. Even if they dont hit (for 20% damage) it isn't difficult to recover from a miss. She is a light character and isnt hard to KO at about 60% damage but her weight makes her kind of "float" back to the stage. smashes hit reliably and can eat shields. I just think she deserves a little more than mid tier.

 

[Tenki]

Rant about Sonics and t/mu discussions.

Sorry to bring this up, but I wanted to poison inject the thread with this before anyone else goes 'baww sonic should be higher' or 'lolz sonic[/lowtier] mainz are fanboiz whu tihnk dey shud be top teir xD"

A lot of Sonic mains keep going on about how Sonic is the best at punishing, the best at gimping, the best at chasing, and etc., so that's probably why they think he's high-top material. I don't think he's poor, but I don't think he's all that great either, but apparently the Sonic mains think he's really good, so maybe I'm just missing something...

That's because alot of Sonic mains are just silly Sonic fanboys <3

It's a strange thing, really.

Sonic statistically (well, as of what we have now) has qualities of a low tier character. Small range, power (per hit), which both contribute to low priority. Weak/slow kill moves.

But on the flip side, he has amazing speed, cancellable moves and approaches and a bunch of tools that a good player can use for mindgames.

Unfortunately, all this mindgame-material counts for NOTHING in matchup or tier discussions, because mindgames are player-based. I can go around spamming side-B cancels for no reason, but it takes a good read on your opponent to charge side-B knowing they'll jump at you, then shield cancel to grab, U-throw, read an airdodge, regrab, D-throw, read a get-up movement, then punish with a spindash>footstool > ASC combo. But your average Sonic fanboy scrub player won't be pulling that off any time soon.

One thing IMO that would help Sonic mains out with matchup/"fact"-based discussions is frame data. Seriously, if you can get a "Sonic can run [this distance] in [this time (frames)]" then apply it to other characters' frame data, then you can actually say something beyond "Sonic can punish this move", but "Sonic WILL punish this move" because then his speed will actually mean something - that, clearly, 'statistically' Sonic is able to effectively run from out of range and grab _____ character in _____ ending lag, as opposed to just a 'maybe' guess.

TL;DR
1) Sonic is Low Tier. If you Sonic supporters feel like he should be higher, don't go throwing him in high/top tier. As a character, he's just not there. Mid tier at best, if you believe that his options/moveset really aren't that bad. Throwing a low tier character in the upper tiers usually results in being labeled a fanboy and having your post disregarded.

2) Get frame data for me. Because I said so. If you can, send me a PM and I'll give you a list of stuff to find lollll

 

[MistRune]

Well, I did aim a slanderous remark at Yoshi, so I guess it's only right that I defend Ike as well. State what you think is overrated about him, if you'd like.

>.> <.< Yoshi may deserve it... he really needs something new. F his FS though.

 

[Mmac]

Well, I did aim a slanderous remark at Yoshi, so I guess it's only right that I defend Ike as well. State what you think is overrated about him, if you'd like.

My only gripe on Ike is just the standard and possibly stereotypical "He's Too Slow!". I know he has good range and power, and his recovery is actually pretty good and underestimated (UpB is just impossible to intercept, not to mention you'll probably get yourself killed trying to do so).

He really only has 3 Fast Attacks (4 or 5 if you include his Grab and/or Counter), and only his Jab is good. I know he can combo it into a Grab, but not sure what he can do out of his Throws. His Bair is pretty good also, but hard to hit with, and due to it's severe Landing Lag, impractical against Grounded opponents. Dsmash is ok, but lacks in Range, and doesn't actually kill compared to the rest of his moveset.

Ike is a character where you need to make every hit count. However this makes him basically a character that relies on your Opponent making mistakes, and basically have to telegraph every move you make, as any miss can be severly punished. Since professional players don't make that many mistakes, I don't think he can make it that far.

 

[AlexX]

Personally, I think Ike is being alittle overestimated though

How is that possible when every character but Captain Falcon considers him their easiest matchup?

 

[MistRune]

How is that possible when every character but Captain Falcon considers him their easiest matchup?

sarcasm? I don't find many good Ike players online. Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Mmac]

How is that possible when every character but Captain Falcon considers him their easiest matchup?

We don't consider Ike as our Easiest Matchup. Infact we have him as Neutral. Yoshi really doesn't do well against Range, but mainly it's because of that stupid *** Jab!

Bair < Jab?!? How is that even possible!

 

[AlexX]

sarcasm? I don't find many good Ike players online. Maybe I'm missing something?

Might be possible. The last time I checked up on what the other boards thought of Ike was a matter of months ago.

I guess while I'm here I should debate a bit. Should be a nice way to correct and improve both my debating skills as well as my Ike knowledge.

He really only has 3 Fast Attacks (4 or 5 if you include his Grab and/or Counter), and only his Jab is good.

I count 4 fast moves not counting his grab or counter (jab, b-air, u-tilt, and n-air). Lucky for him, each character has roughly four moves they use for building up damage and the rest are situational.

I know he can combo it into a Grab, but not sure what he can do out of his Throws.

Down or up-throw to aether is a favorite. Easy 25% damage, although it only works on lower percentages.

His Bair is pretty good also, but hard to hit with, and due to it's severe Landing Lag, impractical against Grounded opponents.

Ike relies a lot on autocancelling, so landing lag usually isn't that big a deal as long as it's not on a tilted surface. I don't see how he has severe landing lag with his b-air though, if anything I think his f-air has the worst.

Dsmash is ok, but lacks in Range, and doesn't actually kill compared to the rest of his moveset.

All Ike's smashes are situational. A good Ike will probably just be using his u-smash for most of the match and save the d-smash to punish people who roll a lot.

Ike is a character where you need to make every hit count. However this makes him basically a character that relies on your Opponent making mistakes, and basically have to telegraph every move you make, as any miss can be severly punished. Since professional players don't make that many mistakes, I don't think he can make it that far.

Ike is indeed a character that is good at punishing while also being one of the easiest to punish. however, he has what he needs to build damage, and for KOs he can usually rely on his f-tilt or eruption attack. He's got a steep learning curve, no doubt, and he's not really "great" like the upper-tier characters, but I think where he is now on the official tier list is about where he belongs.

 

[YagamiLight]

My only gripe on Ike is just the standard and possibly stereotypical "He's Too Slow!". I know he has good range and power, and his recovery is actually pretty good and underestimated (UpB is just impossible to intercept, not to mention you'll probably get yourself killed trying to do so).

The statement about his speed is widely made, and it does have basis in truth, yes. His running speed is tied with Kirby and Squirtle, but it's above around 1/3rd of the cast, regardless. I'm glad you see that Aether is a nice move, few people understand that. And as for range and power, he's probably the best in the game on both counts, although I'm not 100% sure on the strength figures for all the power hitters.

He really only has 3 Fast Attacks (4 or 5 if you include his Grab and/or Counter), and only his Jab is good. I know he can combo it into a Grab, but not sure what he can do out of his Throws. His Bair is pretty good also, but hard to hit with, and due to it's severe Landing Lag, impractical against Grounded opponents. Dsmash is ok, but lacks in Range, and doesn't actually kill compared to the rest of his moveset.

Well, let me list what I'd consider a fast attack (This is by Smash standards, not Ike standards) :
Jabs 1, 2 ,3
Nair
Up Tilt
Bair (It has landing lag, but if you do a rising bair, it can hit grounded opponents, knock them away, and you'll be in good shape)
Grabs
Non-contact Quick Draw
Down Smash

All of these are fast, deal nice damage, and some have early kill power. The Down Smash, while lacks the ability to kill below 100, makes for a solid choice if they reach 110% or so. Ike can't just rely on these moves, but because he has these, he's much better off. I'll be honest - Ike is the character that I thought was missing in Melee. A slow, heavy, power type character that had some surprisingly fast attacks.


Ike is a character where you need to make every hit count. However this makes him basically a character that relies on your Opponent making mistakes, and basically have to telegraph every move you make, as any miss can be severly punished. Since professional players don't make that many mistakes, I don't think he can make it that far.
Ike does really well as a punisher, to be sure. That's not his only role, however. He can mount a perfectly fine offensive if he has to, it's not as if he lacks any good moves in that category. The thing is, Ike is well equipped to deal with any mistakes, as I'm sure you know. At professional levels, Ike is just going to have to play his standard offense and defense game, wait for an error, then take the stock from them. Ike is a character who has a goal throughout the battle, to get you to falter. Good Ikes make it happen sooner, poor Ikes might not accomplish it at all.

Ike is more of a character that has a wide skill gap in his users. There are the infamous scrub Ikes, and then there are the patient, good Ikes. Reacting to mistakes, tricking the opponent, such things aren't in a specific character's moveset. It's a player based thing, like Tenki said a few posts above. Ike is just very well equipped to handle that sort of playstyle, is all.

 

[Tenki]

[1] I count 4 fast moves not counting his grab or counter (jab, b-air, u-tilt, and n-air). Lucky for him, each character has roughly four moves they use for building up damage and the rest are situational.

[2] Down or up-throw to aether is a favorite. Easy 25% damage, although it only works on lower percentages.

[1] Counter? I mean, it's good that you're not counting it, but you make it sound like it's a fast move that you're leaving out for some reaosn.

[2] lower %'s and bad DI.

 

[MistRune]

oh well this may not be the place but my FC is 2664-3416-6879. I'll add everyone currently online from this thread. lol brock obama, and counter. I'm going to play online a little in a few. So im on topic, Zelda should be high tier. [added Tenki, Mmac, and Light. AlexX doesn't have his FC displayed ]

 

[AlexX]

[1] Counter? I mean, it's good that you're not counting it, but you make it sound like it's a fast move that you're leaving out for some reaosn.

Mmac was the one who mentioned it first, but yeah, I guess it shouldn't really count.

[2] lower %'s and bad DI.

I invite you to try and escape it at 0~15% (depending on weight). You don't fly far enough to DI out of it if you're at that low a percent.

 

[Mmac]

I forgot about the rising part of the Bair

Personally, I don't think Nair is that fast. Same with Utilt. Maybe I'm just missing something, or we just have different views on what fast enough is. I also meant Counter, as it activated quickly.

Truth be though, I haven't really seen what a good Ike plays like, so that could be a reason why...

 

[YagamiLight]

I forgot about the rising part of the Bair

Personally, I don't think Nair is that fast. Same with Utilt. Maybe I'm just missing something, or we just have different views on what fast enough is. I also meant Counter, as it activated quickly.

Truth be though, I haven't really seen what a good Ike plays like, so that could be a reason why...

Nair is rather fast, the key is to cancel it. And Up tilt is a moderately fast move, especially for the power it has.

If you'd like to play anytime in the future, just say so, or drop a PM by.

With that, I'm off to sleep.

 

[Mmac]

Air Cancelling eh? Isn't it that thing that ROB uses to get super fast Bairs? I gotta learn how to do those (Especially since I'm forced to use ROB in a Tournament).

And I'm always up for a fight. Yet, I expect to get completely owned badly..... probably because I have no Idea what I'm up against <_<.

 

[Tenki]

oh well this may not be the place but my FC is 2664-3416-6879. I'll add everyone currently online from this thread. lol brock obama, and counter. I'm going to play online a little in a few. So im on topic, Zelda should be high tier. [added Tenki, Mmac, and Light. AlexX doesn't have his FC displayed ]

It isn't. Don't bother adding me. I haven't played online in weeks.

smashboards had a friendfinder, but it seems to have gone down with the recent changes.

but in case it comes up soon:
http://www.smashboards.com/ff

I invite you to try and escape it at 0~15% (depending on weight). You don't fly far enough to DI out of it if you're at that low a percent.

Can you airdodge?

 

[ShadowLink84]

A lot of Sonic mains keep going on about how Sonic is the best at punishing, the best at gimping, the best at chasing, and etc., so that's probably why they think he's high-top material. I don't think he's poor, but I don't think he's all that great either, but apparently the Sonic mains think he's really good, so maybe I'm just missing something...

None of the Sonic mains who are actually intelligent and know what they are talking about say he is high tier material.

Inf act we are the ones that say at best he is low mid!

 

[Xebenkeck]

None of the Sonic mains who are actually intelligent and know what they are talking about say he is high tier material.

Inf act we are the ones that say at best he is low mid!

Finally someone of intelligence on this subject

 

[Darkest-Link]

Tier lists are a load of bull, its not a accurate way to judge things......hell even placing all level 9s against each other is more accurate. There are equal numbers and equal skill, meta knight was popular from the begining and is easy to learn therfore its common to see good meta knights at tournemants. Ganondorf is good but very hard to master therfore there are less of those. anyway i see what they mean by level 9s arent the best players in the world and i see how that could be an inaccurate test. but still think of it this way. The best Pikachu in the world vs the best kirby in the world, true they are the best of their kind but that doesnt mean they are equally skilled, the pikachu user may be more skilled.....what now kirby? True level 9s all together isnt a accurate test but its WAY more accurate than this.

 

[Tenki]

Preamble.

^?lol



1. Tier placement doesn't necessarily reflect your ability to beat your friends with a specific character. You might beat your friend's Metaknight with Sonic, but that doesn't mean Sonic is top tier. It means you win that matchup against your friend. Tiers are not absolute measurements of match outcomes.

2. Instead of measuring match outcomes, tiers are more a measurement of potential of characters against the rest of the cast in a competitive, 1v1 tournament environment. It shows general strength of a character's abilities in a specific tournament environment. So yes, maybe Yoshi is a beast in teams or Ganon is REALLY good with items turned on... but this list measures something different than those things.

3. This list is based on a combination of tournament result data, extensive discussions with top players and tournament hosts and looking at general trends in play in the current competitive metagame. It took a lot of work on the part of some of the best minds in Smash to compile this list.

4. This list might change with time. It is based on how we perceive the game to be and play it competitively NOW. However, if a replacement for l-canceling is discovered or new tactics cause the game to evolve over time, this list could change. So if you main a character that isn't near the top, keep playing and evolving their game. You might be the one, like Chu Dat's Ice Climbers back in Melee, that cause people's opinions to change.

5. That said, don't give up hope! Just because your character isn't ranked at or near the top, doesn't mean you can't do fantastic things with them with enough talent and effort. We do not publish this list to encourage players to change their main tournament character. If anything, it should serve as a challenge to take the game to the next level.

6. In Smash, any character can win in any matchup if you are smarter and better than your opponents by a wide enough margin. So keep playing to win and work hard to be the best player you can be, regardless of which character you use.

Many of you might wonder where this wonderful wordstealage and almost seemingly tiers-don-exits sentiment came from.

Why, it's from the post that the tier list is on!

But so few people read it. Too bad ._.;

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Tier lists are a load of bull, its not a accurate way to judge things......hell even placing all level 9s against each other is more accurate. There are equal numbers and equal skill, meta knight was popular from the begining and is easy to learn therfore its common to see good meta knights at tournemants. Ganondorf is good but very hard to master therfore there are less of those. anyway i see what they mean by level 9s arent the best players in the world and i see how that could be an inaccurate test. but still think of it this way. The best Pikachu in the world vs the best kirby in the world, true they are the best of their kind but that doesnt mean they are equally skilled, the pikachu user may be more skilled.....what now kirby? True level 9s all together isnt a accurate test but its WAY more accurate than this.

A community of intelligent smashers discussing the characters > unpredictable CPUs.
Your idea doesn't work. At all.

P.S. Ganon isn't good...

 

[shazbot]

my friend mains ganon. He tries really hard to do well. His expert level ganon rarely beats my ok lucario. put ganon towards (or at the bottom)

 

[sniperfire]

(woo,first post!)
Can anyone tell me if there are any combos for Capt. Falcon?
I'm an avid Falcon Mainer and i think i might have found one.

 

[Snail]

(woo,first post!)
Can anyone tell me if there are any combos for Capt. Falcon?
I'm an avid Falcon Mainer and i think i might have found one.

Sure, there are a few. There aren't a lot of 'real' (inescapable) combos in Brawl though. Combos in Brawl are more about predicting your opponent's airdodge than about tech skill :/

 

[sniperfire]

Sure, there are a few. There aren't a lot of 'real' (inescapable) combos in Brawl though. Combos in Brawl are more about predicting your opponent's airdodge than about tech skill :/

Ok, well i currently do not have the technology to film it at this time but I can describe it.(mods/admins excuse me for going off topic)
First do a knee(electric) while they arr on the ground.
Then Dash attack, then up-smash
then falcon punch your opponent.
Inescapeble on some chars, i havent really tested it that much.(but i know DK cant escape it.
Damage when "combo" is finished:75%,sometimes they can die, depends where you did the combo.
ok, back on topic

 

[popsofctown]

I don't know much about Captain Falcon, but I know that if you actually found a true combo that is inescaple by DK and ends in an inescapable Falcon Punch, you will be god of the smashworld.... The first bit might be pretty good though, knee to dash attack sounds plausible.

anywhoo, There's a character discussion forum where you can talk to other Falcon mains about Falcon stuff, like this combo. Smash World Forums >> Brawl Discussion >> Character Specific >> Captain Falcon.

On the topic of tiers..
Why is Wario considered so much better than Luigi?

 

[GodAtHand]

on the Wario discussion, this is just what I have seen from tournaments btw:

Wario has excellent arial control = luigi's is horrible once he jumps he can barely move...
Wario can recover from basically anywhere on stage as long as he has his bike. Luigi can be good at recovering but never that good.
Wario has those invincibility frames on his Fsmash, and down air to forward smash is a really good set up to use considering how well he can move when he is arial. Luigi's smashes are powerful but he has little arms and has tough time getting close enough to use his powerful moves.
And Wario has his amazing bite move, which when used correctly can own pretty much anyone all the time.
And I know luigi has is up b, but that rarely happens. and Wario has the mega fart anyways which although is rarer ,I suppose,is much easier to hit with.
Wario is also heavier.
This is just what I know...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario ***** shields. He pressures them and eats them and lots of other funny stuff...

 

[sniperfire]

w00t god of smashworld!
but Wario is better because luigi is cloned in my opinion.
Luigi's fireball isnt very powerful and its kinda slow but on the other hand, he does have that wavedash looking thing

 

[BibulousDan]

well I think i'd have to agree Wario is better than weegee. I've always had trouble when fighting a good wario but can deal with weegee like its nothing , eh go figure : >

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Wario also doesn't fear MK's and DDD's as much as WEEGEE

 

[Pierce7d]

Luigi's fireball is meant to aid him in the air, while Mario's is meant to aid him on the ground.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

And I know luigi has is up b, but that rarely happens.

Not really. A good Luigi will be able to at least get one kill with it per match. It's a lot easier to connect with than most people think.

 

[jiovanni007]

w00t god of smashworld!
but Wario is better because luigi is cloned in my opinion.
Luigi's fireball isnt very powerful and its kinda slow but on the other hand, he does have that wavedash looking thing

Akuma was "cloned" in SF2: HT and he was banned because he was so good and Ken was cloned and is still high tier in SF3 IIRC, to make it here your arguments need a bit more logic behind them.

Not really. A good Luigi will be able to at least get one kill with it per match. It's a lot easier to connect with than most people think.

Very true but that still doesn't make Luigi that great. He's actually one of my surprise CPs, but trust me I know his limitations.

 

[Stealth309]

You never know a Luigi's true potential until you play a great Luigi, like my friend's. He's a user here too.