Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Zinc Elemental]

I really don't want to sound like a complete utter troll (especially on my first day here). But I really don't think tiers are useful. It doesn't matter what character you use, just how you use it. I mean I see many Meta Knight players online and some of them really suck, I could beat them with Yoshi

Thank you for at least trying to be reasonable about it, rather than shouting "TIERS R 4 QUEERS". Tiers have a big influence on the metagame. While skill is still an important factor, there are some barriers in simply how good the character is that are very difficult to overcome. For example, a Captain Falcon will lose to an equally skilled MK the vast majority of the time.

Also, as for your example, Yoshi is even or close to it with MK.

 

[Blackbelt]

I really don't want to sound like a complete utter troll (especially on my first day here). But I really don't think tiers are useful. It doesn't matter what character you use, just how you use it. I mean I see many Meta Knight players online and some of them really suck, I could beat them with Yoshi

Yeah, player skill is an issue, but the (sad) fact is that not all characters are created equal.

 

[Groovy Kong]

Well, does that really matter? I my opinion it's all about mastering the character, if you can't master Ike and can master Diddy Kong then who'd you rather play as?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The one I like more.

The question is not "who do you wanna play as" but "who are you gonna win with".

In this case it's Diddy Kong ...

 

[Groovy Kong]

It's not that i don't like the tiers, well actually i don't like them at all. It's just because there all based on some guys opinion and everyone follows that opinion because the think the guy is pro. Seriously don't fall for it. If some guy thinks that your better off not playing as your favourite character thats no reason to agree with whoever it is.

But if you think i'm wrong then let the hate mail begin

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Groovy Kong, perhaps you should go a little deeper into smash before you start posting your opinion. I'm sure, if you try a lot of stoff, see statistics and videos of these "pros" you'll see it for yourself

 

[Groovy Kong]

i understand, i just wanted to let people know not to follow the tier herd as i like to call it

 

[Zinc Elemental]

It's not that i don't like the tiers, well actually i don't like them at all. It's just because there all based on some guys opinion and everyone follows that opinion because the think the guy is pro. Seriously don't fall for it. If some guy thinks that your better off not playing as your favourite character thats no reason to agree with whoever it is.

But if you think i'm wrong then let the hate mail begin

It's not "some pro". It's a collection of quite a few pros and otherwise knowledgeable players.
No ones saying to swallow it at completely face value, but for the most part people agree with it. Disagreeing with a few placings isn't enough to say that tier lists are worthless.

 

[Blackbelt]

i understand, i just wanted to let people know not to follow the tier herd as i like to call it

I see nothing wrong with people playing to win.


BTW, who do you use?

 

[Clai]

I would never switch to MK. That is like all of the Hillary Clinton voter who were just voting for her because she was a woman switching to Sarah Palin just because she is a woman. I will not jump on the bandwagon.

QFT!

People who play a certain character solely because of their uber god-tierness will quickly be exposed when people start taking advatage of the fact that these people have barely any knowledge of how the character got that broken. Most people are unwilling to put in the hours to master a character and want the insta-win now.

Perhaps if I took up Metaknight when I bought the game, I might say that I'm a Meta main without being a shallow follower. But Metaknight never clicked with me and now I'm absolutely horrendous with him. The only chance I have in getting far into a tournament is if I follow my main all the way through. If I have to endure a few more losses because my main is Ganondorf, so be it. Once I win though, the thrill of victory will be so much sweeter.

 

[Veil2222]

The biggest problem with meta knight is that he's not hard to learn, that's why people flock to him. You could either choose your favorite character, and practice really hard, and chances are get beat by meta-knights once you get to big tournies.... or... play MK, barely practice, and start fighting nothing but MK's and snakes at the top for a while.

You won't just get a few more losses, you'll lose most of the time if you pick someone under mid tier if the people around you are of the same skill level. If you play in a small time tourney scene, yeah, you can stay there and play whoever you want and do decent, but eventually bad matchups and sheer character ability will beat you out for 1st-3rd place in the end.

Unless the metagame developes much more for other characters, and overall skill for the same set of characters goes up a lot, there's going to be a cealing to what they can achieve.

 

[Galaxy]

I like the tier list.

Just I don't like people who completely base their character on tiers. But I understand if your character is bottom like CF and do not want to use him.

In a few months, MK will be figured out. When Brawl first came out I remember how Olimar and Toon Link were completely broken and I even remember people wanting Olimar banned.

Let the scene be at least a year old and we will not have such a unbalanced character(s).

 

[Deleted member]

A lot of people here talking about tournies probably dont go to them lol. I go all yoshi in tournaments, and feel fine playing good Mks and snakes. The only time i feel like i lost besides the other player being better than me(even if its a disadvantaged matchup, i can usually win if i play smart), is against Game and watch, too good.

But yea, tiers do exist, and anyone who says otherwise is clueless.

Also, MK is gay.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Notice that Yoshi doesn't have a 7-3 agaisnt Snake or Metaknight. I'm personally frustrated when I have to fight so many Metaknights as a Sonic player, considering that's like a 7-3 or 8-2 matchup. So I finally just decided not to do it and pull out Marth to fight Metaknight (which is still a 6-4, but a lot more bearable).

 

[Deleted member]

Which leads me to another yoshi rant(lol jk, scared ya there, it wont be a full rant this time):

How is yoshi considered low tier, when he does better against the high tiers than ANY other low tier. Cg against Mk and snake, can outcamp snake and easily grab out of mortarslides(i never get hit by them), can grab out of tornado(still disadvantage for yoshi on MK tho), INFINATE GRAB ON WARIO and grab release to upsmash for kill or damage racking(its really easy, for anyone who needs a wario cp), neutral matchup on D3 at least due to having one of the best camping projectiles against him and the destroyer of big characters, short hop down air.

So yea, yoshi 4 top tier (not really lol).

See i tricked you, it actually was a yoshi rant =D

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^How does Yoshi fare against the high tiers (Marth, Lucario, Pikachu, ect.)
If he's got a lot of disadvantages there then that might be a reason to keep him in low tier (though I doubt it, I think it's mostly just anti-Yoshi bias).

 

[zacharia zako]

I really don't want to sound like a complete utter troll (especially on my first day here). But I really don't think tiers are useful. It doesn't matter what character you use, just how you use it. I mean I see many Meta Knight players online and some of them really suck, I could beat them with Yoshi

hold on a second here why are we talkin about yoshi like that? he's not that bad if u try to get good with him like some people have

 

[Blackbelt]

I honestly believe that Yoshi deserves better than he's gotten.


Though how high he rises is something beyond my guessing.

 

[Deleted member]

^^How does Yoshi fare against the high tiers (Marth, Lucario, Pikachu, ect.)
If he's got a lot of disadvantages there then that might be a reason to keep him in low tier (though I doubt it, I think it's mostly just anti-Yoshi bias).

Marth, im really not sure. some yoshis say its bad, ive beaten very good ones, according to most its 4-6 but its definately winnable.
Pika is even, yoshi can cg and has superior aerial priority, and in general yoshis jab beats a lot of pika's ground options.
Lucario is probably yoshi's second worst matchup, yoshi cant kill well, especially when two of his main kill options are beaten by lucarios dair, and yoshi cant camp lucario much, so its not good.

Olimar is yoshi's advantage, rob opinions differ but i say 4.5-5.5, and pit is even, yoshi can beat on pit really easily because of bad options from above, and the only big threat pit has is his fsmash. Yoshi can side b through arrow spam.

Moar yoshi rants yayuhz

 

[Blackbelt]

I have to ask: What characters would you say are the best Yoshi counters?

 

[Mmac]

^^How does Yoshi fare against the high tiers (Marth, Lucario, Pikachu, ect.)

Marth = Not so good
Wario = *Laughs*
Lucario = Debatable (Some say he's isn't that bad, some say he's a friggen nightmare!)
DK = Neutralish to kinda hard
Diddy = Neutral
Pikachu = Neutralish
Ice Climbers = Neutral to Kinda Easy (It pretty much depends what Nana does when you seperate her, which Yoshi does easily, or if you get grabbed...)
Kirby = Neutral
Pit = Neutralish
Wolf = Not so good

His only notable disadvantages are Lucario, ROB, Toon Link, Wolf, Marth, Link, and Game & Watch (Zelda is debatable, and even ROB is) , and will probably remain as such unless we find some sort of new technique which alters the matchup completely *Cough*Falco*Cough*

Edit: Dang, Burntsocks beat me ;_ ;

But I did answer Blackbelts question

 

[Deleted member]

Eh marth isnt so bad.

Best yoshi counters: Lucario, game and watch, link(yes, normal link), and wolf is also annoying-ish(wouldnt call it a counter).

Yea mmac, im back into tier list discussion failz, lets see you keep up wit dis. =D

 

[Mmac]

Marth isn't that bad, I agree, but will always have a slight upper hand on Yoshi.

 

[AlexX]

Olimar is yoshi's advantage, [...]

How is Yoshi at the advantage against Oli?

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi has one of the easiest gimping games against olimar, back air beats everything oli has, yoshi's grab is amazing against olimar(key to the matchup, as ive recently learned), his egg roll beats all of olimars aerials. Not a huge advantage, but its 6-4, or 5.5-4.5.

 

[CR4SH]

I almost think the list should reflect the fact that most people don't only have ONE character they play in tournaments. I main luigi, and against most of the cast he's my best option, because he fits the way I play best. However, when I have even a feeling someone is going to pull out metaknight, I just play game and watch. If you have two characters that you do well with, which most people do, and they cover eachother's counters pretty well, matchups should never be a problem.

Just because luigi fails horribly against MK, or ness just can't deal with marth, shouldn't relegate them to the bottom of the tier list IMO. Doing badly against MK doesn't make me **** bowser any less with luigi. Its not like any serious tournaments force you to choose one character and play them the whole way through.

 

[Yinlong]

Yoshi has one of the easiest gimping games against olimar, back air beats everything oli has, yoshi's grab is amazing against olimar(key to the matchup, as ive recently learned), his egg roll beats all of olimars aerials. Not a huge advantage, but its 6-4, or 5.5-4.5.

dont forget egg lay to dsmash, it kills most of olimar's pikmin
i killed my friend w/ this, i took out 5/6 pikmin and knocked him off the stage before he could regain any more

 

[Groovy Kong]

I see nothing wrong with people playing to win.


BTW, who do you use?

I use , , , ,

 

[Snail]

I almost think the list should reflect the fact that most people don't only have ONE character they play in tournaments. I main luigi, and against most of the cast he's my best option, because he fits the way I play best. However, when I have even a feeling someone is going to pull out metaknight, I just play game and watch. If you have two characters that you do well with, which most people do, and they cover eachother's counters pretty well, matchups should never be a problem.

Just because luigi fails horribly against MK, or ness just can't deal with marth, shouldn't relegate them to the bottom of the tier list IMO. Doing badly against MK doesn't make me **** bowser any less with luigi. Its not like any serious tournaments force you to choose one character and play them the whole way through.

Doesn't quite make sense though. Anyone could just pick MK as a secondary and claim his main has no weaknesses when you switch to MK if you lose. A tier list is about the characters, not about the players.

 

[Judge Judy]

I almost think the list should reflect the fact that most people don't only have ONE character they play in tournaments. I main luigi, and against most of the cast he's my best option, because he fits the way I play best. However, when I have even a feeling someone is going to pull out metaknight, I just play game and watch. If you have two characters that you do well with, which most people do, and they cover eachother's counters pretty well, matchups should never be a problem.

Just because luigi fails horribly against MK, or ness just can't deal with marth, shouldn't relegate them to the bottom of the tier list IMO. Doing badly against MK doesn't make me **** bowser any less with luigi. Its not like any serious tournaments force you to choose one character and play them the whole way through.

This is true and that's why some tier lists are revised as far as character flaws go, but the tier list is based on how well the characters themselves pit up against each other. Plus, saying you main one character and then pulling out Meta Knight for almost all your match-ups doesn't really help either.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I remember Pride said that Wolf is yoshi's hardest matchup, before it was Falco I think, Falco and MK used to own him before the **** CG was found >_>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As a Wolf player I doubt that Wolf is Yoshis worst match-up. what does it make so...clear?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

As a Wolf player I doubt that Wolf is Yoshis worst match-up. what does it make so...clear?

Blaster is annoying as hell.
I believe Superior Reach.
Yoshi's Hardest CG (or is that DDD?, ya I know that's not really an issue since CG's are good things but whatever) I believe he cannot be Grab released Spiked, he recovers to quickly.

He is kinda like Falco in the sense he can take Yoshi down by outranging him well and stuff, but he doesn't have Falco or MK's issue of being F-air spiked.
I think Lucario might be Yoshi's worst match up

Lucario, Wolf, G&W apparently.

 

[Shady Penguin]

I think Snake's #2 spot on the tier list is looking quite shaky now.

When I look around at match-up topics, I see more and more characters starting to be considered even or counters to Snake (i.e: Dedede, Olimar, and Pikachu).

Some characters like Game & Watch and Marth seem to be widely considered to have better match-ups than Snake from what I see, so are tournament results really enough to keep Snake in his position?

This post is more of a question than an argument, but I personally think Snake should be a bit lower.

 

[DanGR]

I think Snake's #2 spot on the tier list is looking quite shaky now.

When I look around at match-up topics, I see more and more characters starting to be considered even or counters to Snake (i.e: Dedede, Olimar, and Pikachu).

Some characters like Game & Watch and Marth seem to be widely considered to have better match-ups than Snake from what I see, so are tournament results really enough to keep Snake in his position?

This post is more of a question than an argument, but I personally think Snake should be a bit lower.

Well....this is the way I see it...

Before looking at his matchups, you need to consider how well he does in tourneys. He's doing very well.
Next, we look at matchups.
Having bad matchups is a part of the game. Just because he has a couple bad ones doesn't mean he isn't the second best. DDD is debatably the only real "counter",(little more than slight advantage) while olimar, pikachu, and maybe a couple others don't have anything larger than a 60-40 matchup against him. You have to acknowledge that he still beats up most of the cast pretty badly, just as DDD and GaW do. You're probably subconsciously recognizing that he's just behind MK, a character with no bad matchups, (which is just gross) rather than looking at the character himself.

And to answer your question, yes. Tourney results alone are enough to keep him at second place. Tier lists are measurements of how well characters do competitively in a 1v1 environment. Tourneys are the epitome of this. According to Ankoku's rankings, he's doing twice as well as any other character, besides MK of course.

 

[Wyvern-x]

I believe Snake is in the right spot for now. He is a bit overrated, but still good enough to be 2nd.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

I think Snake's #2 spot on the tier list is looking quite shaky now.

When I look around at match-up topics, I see more and more characters starting to be considered even or counters to Snake (i.e: Dedede, Olimar, and Pikachu).

Some characters like Game & Watch and Marth seem to be widely considered to have better match-ups than Snake from what I see, so are tournament results really enough to keep Snake in his position?

This post is more of a question than an argument, but I personally think Snake should be a bit lower.

GaW I can see moving above Snake at some point. Marth I cannot. Marth doesn't have any real counters, but he also doesn't have any notable match-ups that are especially in his favor. Snake has match-ups he can **** in.

However, this is just speculation. For now, Snake is in the right spot. The question is whether or not he'll move down in the future.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

GaW won't take over Snake. The only other contender for #2 is D3

 

[Zinc Elemental]

GaW won't take over Snake. The only other contender for #2 is D3

I think both have a shot. I was responding specifically to him asking about GaW, though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I know. I just wanted to point out, that DDD still is above Gaw. Some people seem to forget that