Pretty much everything Ryko said was right. Jab can lead into all of Ike's move set and this air dodging thing can only be done if you see the aerial coming. The same thing could be said about Ike if he sees your air dodge coming he can just dash and grab you out of it, or start his aerial later on.
you will see the Fair or Nair coming, they do not have their hitbox at such a highspeed as Zelda's Fair or Marth's Fair. Its not hard to dodge because the hitboxes do not linger (though if I am mistaking please correct me)
If your jab gets shielded you can side step the grab that is coming, and if your in a lower port I think you would be the one who gets grabbed because it can come out pretty soon.
Assuming that they do go for a grab. They can always roll dodge from the attack could they not?
This argument feels a bit iffy because its too much of saying what counters what since it sounds more like predicton which is more human factored.
The jab sets up assuming it hits. someone should be expecting the jab because its not like Ike can follow up with a large amount of moves after an aerial.
Exactly which IMO is a weakness.
he doesn't have much that can just go into the jab immediately because at around 30% his aerials hit the opponent too far away tor eally follow up with anythng.
Fair, Nair, and Bair can all be followed up with other aerials even if they get shielded. Unless its like DDD or olimar who can grab you at that distance.
Or characters like Fox and sonic whose Dash shield grab can lessen the push of the attack and then counter with an aerial since they would be in range.
But I play aggressively.
I didn't really understand that 1st sentence of yours I quoted but Ike's jabs can lead into other things even if it gets shielded. If you've spent all this time shielding then he can poke trough you with D tilt.
hat go into a Dtilt while they shield? Hmm not too sure on that it hasn't been done to me and I usually don't do it because I prefer grabbing.
Landing the attack isn't hard. It comes out faster than human reaction add that to the lag of any move and you have time to hit with it on any attack that is shielded since if the move has more than 2 frames of post lag.
Not really, because you know what Ike can or cannot follow up with anticipating the attack increases the chances of shielding or powershielding the attack. Much how people Powershield the lava on Norfair (which is so cool BTW)
I really think your underestimating Ike's jab because it could very well be the best one in the game. Also you ignored/skipped/missed my 1st reply to you which I was hoping to be responded to. Its in page 988 if your interested, 3rd one from the bottom.
I did? Okay give me a moment and I will get to it.
half of the people you mentioned have lost to Ikes of there level.
yes they have but they have beaten Ikes more often than they have lost.
80/20 matchup means you have an 80% chance of winning. So 8 times out of ten you will win.
That doesn't mean you cannot lose it just mans you have a greater chance.
So Ike can still win depending on the opponents behavior but I am willing to bet that they have beaten ike's of their level more often than they have lost.
With close up combat Ike actually has a pretty good game. The jab is great as it can be canceled into more jabs, grabs, Utilt or Dtilt, and it can potentially lead into Fairs, Nairs, and Ftilts if the opponent doesn't react right. Grabs can also lead into dash attacks other grabs and jabs onto other characters. Saying the jab isn't enough to punish close range combat doesn't sound right to me.
The issue is that up your Utilt and Dtilt are more situational. No opponent will jump forward where Ike can Fair and most will react after the firs jab and prevent the next jab/grab.
I believe the Dtilt is slower than the Utilt so it won't link as easily despite having better horizontal range.
Nairs and Fairs do not link afterwards since they aren't extremely fast aerials. they can be dodged upon reaction.
the reason I say jab isn't enough is because while he does have great options out of the jab, he does not have the ability to lead into that jab with ease. So if the opponent doesn't have to worry about all of Ike's moves when they know his followsups focus mostly on one move.
Well his Bair can hit short opponents if he FF a short hop. Aerials aren't Ike's greatest trait but they aren't to bad either. And that bit of someone deciding to attack you while your attacking sounds a bit strange. To me it sounds like your saying someone saw Ike using his attack and decided to jump and intercept it which very few moves can do that I believe. If you are on the ledge you can do a ledge hop Nair/Fair or drop down aether, regrab the ledge
The situation of Ike ledgehopping is very similar to marth with less speed. the opponent can stay just out of range of your attaks at which point you are at a disadvantage due to his lack of options.
As for bair its when it is anticipated.
QD onto the stage, roll, stand up, attack, or jump. Honestly this is a bad position for a lot of characters no Ike and it limits everyones options but Ike still has a few.
Not really, for Wolf, Fox, Falco they have their side B/reflector/blaster which are more reliable than Ike's options.
he is very similar to marth when it comes to being edgeguardedc. If the opponent spaces well, your in a compromised situation.
While opponents are running away from Ike they tend to run out of room limiting there options. Once Ike gets up close the lag from spamming projectiles can be punished.
hey can always jump over him while dropping bombs (Link) or reflectors (Wolf/Fox) or roll dodging. No opponent is going to keep spamming once they have run out of room.
Platforms always help against this as well so the stage can change how effective this strategy is by a lot. As for metaknight and marth being able to break projectiles with there attacks well Ike can do that by PS, or if you really want to do it with an attack you can do it with a jab or U tilt for the stronger projectiles. QD against that spiky thing of DDD's.[/QUOTE
QDing Gordo's sounds risky I've actually been killed by it for QDing. might have been my timing though.
Yeah Ike can destroy projectiles but he can't destroy a projectile then dodge the one afterwards immediately.
So if I double arrow cancel and Ike kills one he is going to be hit by the other.
Or if I fire a laser as Wolf he can dodge but i can fsmash/Dsmash afterwards.
The good thing about Marth and MK is that they can projectiles more easily since they do not need to anticipate and can avoid any other projectiles fired afterwards.
Marth/metaknight can bother be out range by Fair and maybe Nair I think. Marth can be shield grabbed if he gets to close as well.
marth can't be shield grabbed if he spaces the Fair well enough because his aerial mobility an place him out of range right after he attacks.
This is the same for MK.
As for harassing with Fair and Nair they can just bait the attack then afterwards pressure with their respective Fair/Nair while avoiding punishment.
No idea on sonic because I don't fight any but warrio can once again be out ranged (don't know about that infinite thing.) and jiggilypuff isn't much of a problem with her low weight and Ike's superior range.
If they go for diret cmbat though they can easily rush forward and move away from any incoming attack and promptly continue pressuring afterwards. its not like Ike can continue harassing them with multiple Fair/Nairs while in the air/
yeah he outranges them but they are quick enough to make that range less useful.
Olimar does own Ike pretty easily the best thing I could say would be to wait for your chance and get out of his projectile reach to get him to move around.
I recmmend actually Neutral b or fairs. The projectiles have no priority they are just faast.
If he does it from that high I've got more then enough time to roll onto the stage before it become an issue, without suffering any consequences. Also, you're above me with your ^b expended, your situation isn't particularly good.
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You are misunderstanding the situation. The spring gimping is done when Ike is below the stage and beginning his recovery not when he has already grabbed the ledge.
Dropping a spring on someone who is capable of ledgehopping is a stupid idea and no Sonic is going to use it.
If you're planning on using up-b to get out of his range, spring dropping is rather predictable in general, and Ike's ledge-hop to ^b has a fair amount of range. Time it right, and I'll eat spring damage, sure, but you're eat aether.
he first 1/3rd of hthe spring jump has invinciblity frames so you'll have to time it as soon as he does the ^B for the aether to connect.
If aether misses or is airdodged, which doesn't really happen. If he's too low, got a continuous hitbox, and going too fast, not getting edge-hogged.
What when aether s done so the sword is at the edge?
The fact is, spring-dropping is predictable, do it at a safe height, and i'll be back on the stage before it hits me. Do it at an unsafe height and you're eating an aether while you're in ^b animation.
Its predictable but very effective.
If I drop my spring its because you are going towards the ledge so you can aether to it safely. if you ^B to avoid the spring you risk missing the ledge.
If you try to get closer you risk getting hit by the spring.
By the time you are on the ledge I have already Daired back to the ground and waiting for you on the ledge.
No Sonic user is going to drop a spring in a position where the opponent can roll back onto the ledge with ease.
Or I can risk eating the aether and drop the spring on you so that hits you and lessens the damage taken and push you away from the ledge.
Which is fine, the goal was to get back on the stage and your shielding (which aether can and does poke through at the top and bottom of) lets him do just that. If you don't shield the 22 damage is just a bonus.
Yes but why would oyou place yourself close where Aether can reach you? Thats like staying near the ledge where Marth can Dolphin Slash can get you. Space it and Ike becomes limited.
Not necessarily, if I have a speed disadvantage I may just use nair while facing the other way, not to mention rar, a very practical and real tactic for ike.
Why though? If the opponent uses any move that has a hitbox out before your Nair/Fair he can hit you.
Or couldn't he bait the aerial and then respond with a counter?
Second part is an actual question.
