Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[adumbrodeus]

Luigi's fireballs are a projectile, so I wouldn't count those. When I said hit the opponent faster I meant prepare an attack from a farther distance, so as such mask the attack's wind up time (Such as the Forwards Air). Speaking of the forward air, you can jump, use it and pull back and due to the range it'll hit them, and be far enough away as if he was a fast character who hit and ran.

Don't forget the IASA frames on fair. Makes the move surprisingly usable as Rykoshet showed me.

Piss poor? Have you seen how much QD travels? The only flaw is that it's gimpable. And as for Aether, it's actually a good move that is in no way as vulnerable as CF's due to SA frames.

QD's gimpability is too much of a problem for it to be good. It's just WAY too gimpable.

Aether is much less so, but it's very telegraphed, it especially has issues with certain characters... like Marth.

 

[YagamiLight]

Don't forget the IASA frames on fair. Makes the move surprisingly usable as Rykoshet showed me.


QD's gimpability is too much of a problem for it to be good. It's just WAY too gimpable.

Aether is much less so, but it's very telegraphed, it especially has issues with certain characters... like Marth.

The IASA frames on fair help as well, I somehow managed to forget to mention them.

And yes, QD is by no means a good recovery, but there is a time and a place for almost every move in the game, QD's use is for higher recoveries.

And versus Marth, Mario and such, you're going to have to be tricky and either do a reverse Aether or make sure you barely reach the platform. It's harder than usual, but it doesn't really make Aether any worse.

 

[AlexX]

Les forget aout the fact that DDD is heavily comboed and that when he gets spaced it tends to be an annoyance for him.

But Dedede can also space since his hammer has some good range and has his waddle-dees as projectiles.

DDD is not top tier because his overall matchups and tourney rankings are nowhere near that of MK and Snake.

Then why is he winning a decent amount? And Snake and MK have considerably greater tournament rankings than anyone else, so of course he's going to pale in comparison to them.

G&W is a contendor but otherwise DDD,Falco, and ROB should not be considered top tier material

What's wrong with Falco? And moreso, what's wrong with ROB? ROB is heavy, strong, has some quick and effective attacks, good projectiles, and one of the best recoveries in the game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Well its good to have a discussion every now and then, otherwise we all walk around deaf and blind.

And stupid

Point taken. I'd probably say that Sonic deserves better than what he got tier wise but that's another story.
The part about the back aerial having an awkward hitbox isn't really important as most Ike users are going to learn how to hit with it. As for the jab combo, I'd argue that it's just as good as Snake's is, as it does 2% more damage and doesn't miss some crouching characters (Like Mr. Game and Watch). His close range game is actually one of the best, but I think we're talking about different ranges. I was actually speaking of what Ike considers close range, namely one sword length apart.

By close range I mean something equivalent to jab range or a bit further.
Yeah Ike has a clear advantage in terms of range, but he never really gets to put that range to great use. He has to paly defensively but in most cases he is forced to go offensive, during tha point he becomes predictable and has limited options.

His Bair is fast but not good for short opponents or opponents who like to remain grounded.
If he drops to attack the opponent that places him in range to get grabbed.

So yeah while he has a big sword, the speed at which he swings it lets he opponent get up clsoe so that the range doesn't get to be as great an advantage.
Wolf on the oher hand has nowhere near the range that Ike does but he has much more range and so is more effective at fighting up clsoe or hitting the opponent away.

Luigi's fireballs are a projectile, so I wouldn't count those. When I said hit the opponent faster I meant prepare an attack from a farther distance, so as such mask the attack's wind up time (Such as the Forwards Air). Speaking of the forward air, you can jump, use it and pull back and due to the range it'll hit them, and be far enough away as if he was a fast character who hit and ran.

Not really. For example if you compare it to Sonic who has a laggy Special, the speed at which it moves is extremely high, so he can get away with preparing it.
For Ike, while he does perform a Fair once he lands ont he ground the lag is noticeable enough to allow the opponent to get upclose. he cannot get away with attacking as a faster opponent like MK and Fox would.
Yeah he can maintain that distance but the cooldown time of his attacks as well as startup, means that while he can try and force himself back o a safe spot, he ends up vulnerable during that period.

You're not calling Ganondorf fast, are you?

of course not.
Its an exaggeration of Ike's slow speed.

Did you not use your jab combo or grabs whatsoever? They're practically made for that reason.

Of course I used my jab and grab as well as SH Nair and SH Fair for maintaining defensive. It can work well for opponents without projectiles but characters such as Sonic and Mk get up close very quickly and can take advantge of Ike's lack of options upclose.
Just having a jab and grab isn't enough, he needs to ahve more options because if he only has a jab and grab for upclose fighting, the opponent can easily counter him.
For example with sonic, if I perform an ASC you can't grab me or jab me out of it.
if you try to jab you'll get hit and eat a 27~32% combo. If you try to grab I can cancel the ASC and avoid being grabbed.
You can't use a Utilt since my jump places me outside of its range. So what can you do? Let your shield get eaten or roll dodge and risk getting hit?

Ganondorf and Bowser have larger sizes and ranges than Ike, so Ike has a better time of doing that.

He can approach onl marginally better. It still places his approach game as poor.

The only one out of those that you might get hit by is Falco, really. The other two are quite dodgeable. And I restate that Ike should punish with the jab combo and on occasion grabs.

you cannot punish projectile usage with jas and grabs unless you are already upclose to attack.
Again approach means he doesn't have the means to get uclose safely. you'll take a good amouont of damage. Big whoops you spotdodged an arrow watch for the boomerang/bomb or second arrow.
Yah you dodged the waddledee but you still have to deal with the Ftilt coming your way.
Or Falco's grab/dasha ttack/Jab/tilts/Smashes.

Meanwhile MK and marth have good range and great speed so they can deal with the projectiles and approach safely.

DK's gets about as much vertical recovery as Yoshi's Egg Toss, if he's 10 feet below the stage you've lost a stock..

Which won't happen often considering DI.

Wolf's Up B takes a second before he can even move afterward, and his side b either lands with him on the stage or he'll have to scar it, which isn't hard to predict.

he can also grab the edge and he can cancel it so that eh actual flies farther horizontally than normal.
He has much more optins than Ike who either goes for the edge or stage or dies.

As for Snake's, he's basically either asking you to spike him or if he does high up he'll have to fight an air battle, one of his worst suits.

Except he can recover far away where he cannot be spiked by most of opponents and he has method to protect himself while he is in the air.

Ike has little range to his recovery and limited options, meanwhile the characters you mentioned have more options even if there recovery is not so good.

Piss poor? Have you seen how much QD travels? The only flaw is that it's gimpable. And as for Aether, it's actually a good move that is in no way as vulnerable as CF's due to SA frames.

with QD you have a predictable trajectory that can be gimped with airdodging/taking thhe hit/edgehogging/predicting where he will appear and punishing afterwards.

His approach game is good enough for not having a projectile, hoever. He doesn't need more than the jab to punish. The awkward hitboxes don't especially matter. I don't deny that if he had more speed, it'd be better, but as it stands his meh speed doesn't reduce his range and power by any means. The game has defensive elements, but Ike's offensive game is good enough to close in and beat those elements.

I am doubting your experience if you are claiming Ike's offense can break through the defensive elements.
His approach game is poor, if Ike can approach then so can ganondorf. he is predictable when approach, slow in punishing.
You aren't going to punish an aerial opponent with jabs nor a grabby opponent.
His meh speed holds him back as does his meh attack speed.

I want you to play against Deva/Izaw's Link with Ike.
Or overswarm's ROB.
OR Sethlon's Falco.
or Mr. 3000's Sonic.
Or M2K's MK
or Drk. Pch's Peach.
Try Ryoko's Zelda as well

Ike either cannot approach them, gets rushed down by them or just gets gimped badly by them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

And versus Marth, Mario and such, you're going to have to be tricky and either do a reverse Aether or make sure you barely reach the platform. It's harder than usual, but it doesn't really make Aether any worse.

Yeah it does, it's a definate disadvantage, because reverse Aether is easier to be attacked out of, and barely reaching is easier to be edgehogged.

Try Ryoko's Zelda as well

Ike either cannot approach them, gets rushed down by them or just gets gimped badly by them.

This must be pointed out.

Ask Ryoko about Zelda versus Rykoshet's Ike.

Or ask Rykoshet the same about his Ike versus Ryoko's Zelda.

 

[ShadowLink84]

??? I am not familiar with what occurred.

His Ike beat ryoko's Zelda?
Hmm I also thought that the amtchup would result in Zelda having an advantage.

Then again she doesn't camp really well persay.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ouch. Just read something along the lines of Ike having a good approach considering he doesn't have a projectile. Ike is awful offensively. Why do you think he suffers against characters who force him to approach with a projectile? Because he doesn't have an approach.
When I play with Ike, I have to be super defensive and campy (against characters with no/bad projectiles anyway, in other cases I just kinda give up before the match starts >.>) He just doesn't have an approach at all. Retreating fairs are the only way to go to make a connection with the opponent, which begs the question how are you going to get the opponent to approach?
Even up close his game is VERY limited. IMO his jab is the only thing stopping him being an unusable character for me. Everything else is too slow.

 

[adumbrodeus]

??? I am not familiar with what occurred.

His Ike beat ryoko's Zelda?
Hmm I also thought that the amtchup would result in Zelda having an advantage.

Then again she doesn't camp really well persay.

Ryoko refuses to play Zelda against him anymore.

Personally I think that his playstyle probably counter's Ryoko's Zelda playstyle to a degree, but still, it's worth considering. If Zelda hard-countered Ike, that would probably be near impossible consider Ryoko is one of the top Zelda players.


I'd say this match-up is probably a soft-counter (Zelda counter Ike of course), has issues, but far from impossible.

Edit: On second thought... yeah, not a Zelda advantage, neutral sounds about right.

 

[YagamiLight]

Well its good to have a discussion every now and then, otherwise we all walk around deaf and blind.

And stupid
Of course.

By close range I mean something equivalent to jab range or a bit further.
Yeah Ike has a clear advantage in terms of range, but he never really gets to put that range to great use. He has to paly defensively but in most cases he is forced to go offensive, during tha point he becomes predictable and has limited options.

He won't always get the opportunity to use that range to the best extent, and yeah, he can't always go straight in. But if he is going to attack, he's not as limited as you say.

His Bair is fast but not good for short opponents or opponents who like to remain grounded.
If he drops to attack the opponent that places him in range to get grabbed.
You can autocancel the Bair for ground opponents, but yes, for sorter opponents you'll have to try other options if they don't take to the air.


So yeah while he has a big sword, the speed at which he swings it lets he opponent get up clsoe so that the range doesn't get to be as great an advantage.
Wolf on the oher hand has nowhere near the range that Ike does but he has much more range and so is more effective at fighting up clsoe or hitting the opponent away.
I didn't quite get the second part, but as for the first, yes, he does have some wind up time. But it's not large on most of his moves, so you cane asily work around it.


Not really. For example if you compare it to Sonic who has a laggy Special, the speed at which it moves is extremely high, so he can get away with preparing it.
For Ike, while he does perform a Fair once he lands ont he ground the lag is noticeable enough to allow the opponent to get upclose. he cannot get away with attacking as a faster opponent like MK and Fox would.
Yeah he can maintain that distance but the cooldown time of his attacks as well as startup, means that while he can try and force himself back o a safe spot, he ends up vulnerable during that period.

As I forgot to say, the FAir has IASA, so he can use those to significantly help him. And nobody said he had to land straight after, did they? He can attack from up high and jump away, of course.


of course not.
Its an exaggeration of Ike's slow speed.
Yeah, haha, I know.

Of course I used my jab and grab as well as SH Nair and SH Fair for maintaining defensive. It can work well for opponents without projectiles but characters such as Sonic and Mk get up close very quickly and can take advantge of Ike's lack of options upclose.
Just having a jab and grab isn't enough, he needs to ahve more options because if he only has a jab and grab for upclose fighting, the opponent can easily counter him.
For example with sonic, if I perform an ASC you can't grab me or jab me out of it.
if you try to jab you'll get hit and eat a 27~32% combo. If you try to grab I can cancel the ASC and avoid being grabbed.
You can't use a Utilt since my jump places me outside of its range. So what can you do? Let your shield get eaten or roll dodge and risk getting hit?
Your points are noted that in some not so common occasions, the jab and grab aren't enough. I guess for your Sonic example, I'd have to say (Not especially having played a really good Sonic which is something I must get to doing), I'd probably have to take the shield hit and from a little bit onward try to space against the Sonic to just recharge the shield.

He can approach onl marginally better. It still places his approach game as poor.
you cannot punish projectile usage with jas and grabs unless you are already upclose to attack.

It's not a fantastic approach, but I wouldn't hold it as bad.
Again approach means he doesn't have the means to get uclose safely. you'll take a good amouont of damage. Big whoops you spotdodged an arrow watch for the boomerang/bomb or second arrow. You might take some damage from a bomb you didn't see, or perhaps a boomerang. But that's not especially doing much. Point is, you'll get there barely unscratched.
Yah you dodged the waddledee but you still have to deal with the Ftilt coming your way.
Or Falco's grab/dasha ttack/Jab/tilts/Smashes.
D3's Ftilt has great range, but it's not especially good, Falco's a different story, but "Lasers until they come close, grab" kinda works on everyone, no?

Meanwhile MK and marth have good range and great speed so they can deal with the projectiles and approach safely. They don't as much deal with the projectiles as they come close before the projectile hit. Ike does this to a lesser extent.


Which won't happen often considering DI.

Kinda prevents him from meteor cancelling and revoering, doesn't it?
he can also grab the edge and he can cancel it so that eh actual flies farther horizontally than normal.
He has much more optins than Ike who either goes for the edge or stage or dies.
The grab sweetspot is low, and you only have about 3 frames to cancel it, IIRC. He's got a few tricks to the recovery, but it's still pretty poor.

Except he can recover far away where he cannot be spiked by most of opponents and he has method to protect himself while he is in the air.He's got methods, but if you knock him up and away, say, with a forward tilt, you've got some time to plan a good attack and make it count.

Ike has little range to his recovery and limited options, meanwhile the characters you mentioned have more options even if there recovery is not so good. They have more options, but remember that complex doesn't always mean good.

with QD you have a predictable trajectory that can be gimped with airdodging/taking thhe hit/edgehogging/predicting where he will appear and punishing afterwards. I'm well aware of the problems with Quick Draw


I am doubting your experience if you are claiming Ike's offense can break through the defensive elements. What I should have said that Ike is not destroyed by defense, he's got enough to break through some defensive elements and go defensive himself. Though I'd say my logical arguments show that I'm no idiot, at least.
His approach game is poor, if Ike can approach then so can ganondorf. he is predictable when approach, slow in punishing. Ike's jabs are, once again, a good punsiher, far better than Ganon's jab. And Ike's run speed far beats Ganon's, so Ike has a better approach than Ganon does, even if it's not great.

You aren't going to punish an aerial opponent with jabs nor a grabby opponent.
Noted, you have other ways of reaching those.
His meh speed holds him back as does his meh attack speed.There's gotta be something bad about him, no?

I want you to play against Deva/Izaw's Link with Ike.
Or overswarm's ROB.
OR Sethlon's Falco.
or Mr. 3000's Sonic.
Or M2K's MK
or Drk. Pch's Peach.
Try Ryoko's Zelda as well

Ike either cannot approach them, gets rushed down by them or just gets gimped badly by them. I want to play those guys as well, if only for a broader range of experience. . Ike does has ways of dealing with all you said, even if at first it seems pretty bad.

My main point is that Ike has the ability to deal with several things, and is not as bad as everyone seems to claim. Top tier? No. But he gets too little credit.

Edit:
[

Ouch. Just read something along the lines of Ike having a good approach considering he doesn't have a projectile. Ike is awful offensively. Why do you think he suffers against characters who force him to approach with a projectile? Because he doesn't have an approach.
When I play with Ike, I have to be super defensive and campy (against characters with no/bad projectiles anyway, in other cases I just kinda give up before the match starts >.>) He just doesn't have an approach at all. Retreating fairs are the only way to go to make a connection with the opponent, which begs the question how are you going to get the opponent to approach?
Even up close his game is VERY limited. IMO his jab is the only thing stopping him being an unusable character for me. Everything else is too slow.

I think I overstepped something when I said good approach, but it's not terrible. I'm well aware of Ike's problems with projectiles at times, but it really isn't terrible. You don't have to be super defensive and campy either, and you definitely shouldn't just give up, really. He's got ways of dealing with most things, you do, of course, need some patience. You can't rush in against some characters, and you shouldn't do it against all of them. And it's not just the jab that's good, everything has a place in Ike's game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Its rather difficult to quote you and respond.

He won't always get the opportunity to use that range to the best extent, and yeah, he can't always go straight in. But if he is going to attack, he's not as limited as you say.

Except the issue is that the majority of the time he cannot use that rang. usually the opponent is capable of taking advantage of his lack of speed so they can get upclose and make the range much less useful than originally.

You can autocancel the Bair for ground opponents, but yes, for sorter opponents you'll have to try other options if they don't take to the air.

pyou still have your back to the opponent and you cannot pivot a grab when you're not dashing.
In such a position Ike is compromised.

I didn't quite get the second part, but as for the first, yes, he does have some wind up time. But it's not large on most of his moves, so you cane asily work around it.

It does not need to be large, it just needs to be significant enough.
asically along the lines of watching Zelda moving her arm for a Uair.

As I forgot to say, the FAir has IASA, so he can use those to significantly help him. And nobody said he had to land straight after, did they? He can attack from up high and jump away, of course.

Except attacking high and straight up means you won't have a means of attacking if yor opponent decides to go after you aerially which is not Ike's strong suit. Or they can land camp you and take advantage.

yeah he has his IASA frames but they aren't enough because of the startup lag on the move.
Similar to MK's fsash, yeah there is a short cooldown but the startup time means you're left open for that period of time.

Your points are noted that in some not so common occasions, the jab and grab aren't enough. I guess for your Sonic example, I'd have to say (Not especially having played a really good Sonic which is something I must get to doing), I'd probably have to take the shield hit and from a little bit onward try to space against the Sonic to just recharge the shield.

We'll play sometime while have the chance.
I n such a position Ike can't really space well because of Sonic's method of maintaining pressure.
or for example MK or peach. In Such a position trying to move away and space means he'llbe forced into a position where he can be chased or pressured further.

You might take some damage from a bomb you didn't see, or perhaps a boomerang. But that's not especially doing much. Point is, you'll get there barely unscratched.

barel unscratched? you'll be eating close to 20% damage let alone the fact your opponent isn't going to stand still and will constantly attempt to maintain the distance from the opponent.
So you're going to take even more damage, with low aerial movement and low ground movement as well as no method of speeding things up he's going to have a hard time.

.
D3's Ftilt has great range, but it's not especially good, Falco's a different story, but "Lasers until they come close, grab" kinda works on everyone, no?

The only thing Ike has that really outranges DDD's Ftilt is the Dair, at which point he can easily space it and waddledee some more.

They don't as much deal with the projectiles as they come close before the projectile hit. Ike does this to a lesser extent.

No, for cases like Link their attacks can break the projectiles.
or as you said they move more quickly. they also have many more options when approaching than Ike does because none of their moves have significant lag to them.

Kinda prevents him from meteor cancelling and revoering, doesn't it?

It prevents him from being meteored and gives him a better chance of recovering.
Which is much better since he has a greater recovery range than ike does.

The grab sweetspot is low, and you only have about 3 frames to cancel it, IIRC. He's got a few tricks to the recovery, but it's still pretty poor.

Correct but the versatility of his recovery is exceeding that of Ike's. So while it isn't exactly great its better than ike in that he isn't as predictable.

Except he can recover far away where he cannot be spiked by most of opponents and he has method to protect himself while he is in the air.He's got methods, but if you knock him up and away, say, with a forward tilt, you've got some time to plan a good attack and make it count.[/quite]
Ike has a poor aerial game though so once he is in the air the opponent can take advantage.
yes you can recover and grab the ledge, but at that point what can you do?
Ledgehop Fair/nair?

At that point you will still have difficulties getting back on stage.

They have more options, but remember that complex doesn't always mean good.

it doesn't mean complex, it means that they have more spots to choose from when recovering.
it can be complex but in these cases I mentioned it isnt.

What I should have said that Ike is not destroyed by defense, he's got enough to break through some defensive elements and go defensive himself. Though I'd say my logical arguments show that I'm no idiot, at least.

you're no idiot but I do thik you lack experience.
he just doesn't ahve the means of breaking the defensive game.
Not enough shield stun to take advantage of the Fair's IASA frames, and not enough speed to follow up the Fair even with the IASA frames.

he has little options aerially and ground wise when it comes to approaching and so he is very unsafe and often punished.

Ike's jabs are, once again, a good punsiher, far better than Ganon's jab. And Ike's run speed far beats Ganon's, so Ike has a better approach than Ganon does, even if it's not great.

Except having good jabs isn't enough. the opponent will know what you will do so they wills apce themselves so that punishing is difficult.
yeah he has better run speed but its not amazing and again, he has very little options while running.
Usmash is slow, dash attack is poor.
SH aerials are rather slow in startup and the opponent isn't going to stand there and watch you approach either.

.
Noted, you have other ways of reaching those.

in what way? How will you punish MK/Marth's Fairs?
Or Sonic's spinshotting~Fair.
Or wario and jigglypuff's aerial games?
Or how about olimars great ground game?

There's gotta be something bad about him, no?

f course otherwise he would be top tier.

I want to play those guys as well, if only for a broader range of experience. . Ike does has ways of dealing with all you said, even if at first it seems pretty bad.

The main issue is that the methods of dealing with them aren't very applicable and een if they were, the success rate is rather low.

 

[Rykoshet]

Ryoko used zelda against me a few days ago actually, might be as little as 2. The % loss trying to land a killshot on me generally isn't worth it, ike just punishes zelda so hard. He still prefers fighting ike with sheik (why the hell wouldnt anyone? Ike falls into ftilt for free). Zelda is not at an advantage against ike, sorry. She loses out on weight, speed, power, range, and offstage game. Combined with her woefully predictable recovery, I can practically fsmash a zelda out of FW 40% of the time, I can grab her out of it a good 4/5 of the time. She's a light character with a big "kick me sign" the second her feet get off the stage. If I'm not around to prove it, renegade can do it just as well. Your very best bet is to get aggressive on ike and hope he doesnt find a way to get out of range in time. Sadly one of the best ways to take ike out easily as zelda is to throw a din's to force a low recovery then sourspot dair him before his super armor goes off. The catch though, as I've mentioned, is that if zelda screws up ike's is taking her stock for free 9 times out of 10, FW is too easily edgehogged or punished depending on how low it starts.

For the record, Ryoko's sheik flat out toys with me, I think I won 3 out of a good dozen last time. The only thing he has over spacies and sheik (who also fall into ftilt like its their **** job) is that he can reasonably live to the % where ftilt starts become DI sensitive for these types of characters.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means an amazing player. I still have plenty of bad habits that Ryoko will capitalize on in a split second, but this misconception really tends to get at me.

 

[YagamiLight]

Its rather difficult to quote you and respond.
Individually quoting is such a bummer. I prefer to just add color to the quoted post.



Except the issue is that the majority of the time he cannot use that rang. usually the opponent is capable of taking advantage of his lack of speed so they can get upclose and make the range much less useful than originally.
I'd argue that while the lack of speed is worse than say, MK having that range, it doesn't really eliminate the fact that he has that range is still a boon.


pyou still have your back to the opponent and you cannot pivot a grab when you're not dashing.
In such a position Ike is compromised.
Point taken, though the back aerial has good enough knockback to not just leave you open, even at low percents.



It does not need to be large, it just needs to be significant enough.
asically along the lines of watching Zelda moving her arm for a Uair.
Zelda's Up Air is more telegraphed than several of Ike's moves, but the point is correct.


Except attacking high and straight up means you won't have a means of attacking if yor opponent decides to go after you aerially which is not Ike's strong suit. Or they can land camp you and take advantage. You still have means of attacki g, of course. Aerial's aren't Ike's "best" thing, but that doesn't mean they suck. He's still got a good aerial game.

yeah he has his IASA frames but they aren't enough because of the startup lag on the move.
Similar to MK's fsash, yeah there is a short cooldown but the startup time means you're left open for that period of time.
Unlike MK's Fsmash, the Forward aerial has better range and can be used while moving.



We'll play sometime while have the chance.
I n such a position Ike can't really space well because of Sonic's method of maintaining pressure.
or for example MK or peach. In Such a position trying to move away and space means he'llbe forced into a position where he can be chased or pressured further.

Haha, I'm looking forward to the matches. Yeah, spacing is harder against fast opponents, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do. I hate to say "play smart" but it is kind of applicable against Meta Knight.


barel unscratched? you'll be eating close to 20% damage let alone the fact your opponent isn't going to stand still and will constantly attempt to maintain the distance from the opponent.
So you're going to take even more damage, with low aerial movement and low ground movement as well as no method of speeding things up he's going to have a hard time.
Yeah, you'll take the damage. Probably not 20, but you'll take some. The opponent certainly will attempt to move around, but you WILL reach them.

The only thing Ike has that really outranges DDD's Ftilt is the Dair, at which point he can easily space it and waddledee some more. The Fair and Quick Draw beat it as well, though QD is not really useful here unless you time it perfectly to not have lag.

No, for cases like Link their attacks can break the projectiles. That they do.
or as you said they move more quickly. they also have many more options when approaching than Ike does because none of their moves have significant lag to them. Yeah, they close in better. I'm not denying that.



It prevents him from being meteored and gives him a better chance of recovering.
Which is much better since he has a greater recovery range than ike does. I still wouldn't call DK's better than Ike's, due to some small features.


Correct but the versatility of his recovery is exceeding that of Ike's. So while it isn't exactly great its better than ike in that he isn't as predictable. Yeah, but remember: Predictable is not always bad.

Ike has a poor aerial game though so once he is in the air the opponent can take advantage.
yes you can recover and grab the ledge, but at that point what can you do?
Ledgehop Fair/nair?
Ike doesn't have a poor aerial game, first of all. Secondly, Ike can do that if he's on the edge. But well, most people playing against Ike know that Ike can aether from the edge for damage.


it doesn't mean complex, it means that they have more spots to choose from when recovering.
it can be complex but in these cases I mentioned it isnt. Yeah, they have more spots to choose from, but the recovery has to be good in first place.





you're no idiot but I do thik you lack experience. Well, I'm glad you don't consider me stupid. That said, I play good people quite often, but I will not deny that I lack experience against some cast members.

he just doesn't ahve the means of breaking the defensive game. He can break it, but I'll admit that the momentum some campers have is really trying.
Not enough shield stun to take advantage of the Fair's IASA frames, and not enough speed to follow up the Fair even with the IASA frames. I, personally, use the Fair more of as a finisher to something like "Nair->Jab->Grab->Fthrow->Fair", not as a combo move.

he has little options aerially and ground wise when it comes to approaching and so he is very unsafe and often punished. Yeah, agree with you there.

Except having good jabs isn't enough. the opponent will know what you will do so they wills apce themselves so that punishing is difficult. I suppose they can space, yes.
yeah he has better run speed but its not amazing and again, he has very little options while running. The Dash attack's range is underestimated, however.
Usmash is slow, dash attack is poor. Up smash is more for punishing airdodges, dahs attack is alright.
SH aerials are rather slow in startup and the opponent isn't going to stand there and watch you approach either.The neutral aerial is lagless when shorthopped, by yeah, they'll be trying to escape.

in what way? How will you punish MK/Marth's Fairs?
Or Sonic's spinshotting~Fair.
Or wario and jigglypuff's aerial games?
Or how about olimars great ground game?
I'm not too knowledgeable about Sonic or Olimar, so I can't explain those. MK and Marth's Fair you CAN counter, but you're going to have to do that intelligently. You can try to beat them with aerials of your own, the retreating Forward Aerial ,once again, help here. And as for Jiggly and Wario, Ike can infinite Wario if he makes the mistake of double jumping, so I guess Up tilting and baiting is the way to go. As for Jiggly, even the range advantage with stuff like Nair is too good.


The main issue is that the methods of dealing with them aren't very applicable and een if they were, the success rate is rather low. They are applicable enough, but at a lower level, camp tactics and gimps can easily defeat Ike. It needs to skill to not be destroyed by those, which is actually why the typecast "n00b Ike" is such a wrong thing, haha.

This debate took a turn from the interest, from my logic claims and the tier list to "how does Ike deal with this?". I prefer this subject more. In any case, I'll take you up on your Sonic match, haha.

 

[Browny]

The jabs are good but its far from being that of Snake's and he doesn't have anything else to really fight the opponent with upclose.

Ikes jab is seriously good, Snakes is just average now. with enough practice with DI and reaction time i find myself able to DI out of his third hit at least 75% of the time, and its completely unsafe on block. most characters can fsmash or at least grab him from the lag on his jab. If ike cancels the jab he can just set up another one so fast before you can punish him, he can delay the second at third strikes really well to eat shields, and of course nair-jab is an amazing defensive option. besides snakes jab having KO power (which isnt as strong as his ftilt/utilt anyway), ikes jab is far better than snakes.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'm actually scratching my head at someone thinking snake's jab is better than ike's.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ryoko used zelda against me a few days ago actually, might be as little as 2.

You lied to me! I don't know what to believe anymore!

Lol, but the point is, Ryoko doesn't like using Zelda against you.

Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means an amazing player. I still have plenty of bad habits that Ryoko will capitalize on in a split second, but this misconception really tends to get at me.

Yeah, you mentioned that, which was why I was correcting it for you.

I'm actually scratching my head at someone thinking snake's jab is better than ike's.

Obviously because it's Snake... everything Snake does is better then EVERY other character [/sarcasm]

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I don't understand how Zelda has any sort of advantageous match against Ike. Thankfully, I don't need to when picking her character slot.

 

[Rykoshet]

Oh jesus I just realized

or Drk. Pch's Peach.

We were in the same crew and played eachother multiple times, really. He actually made a topic the day after the first time asking specifically how to deal with ike. Fkn name droppers asking about specific people as evidence instead of figuring it out for their **** selves, sheesh. Hell, our 3 month old matches from the very very first time we ran into eachother are on my YT channel. If it wasnt great sea, he generally didn't spank me, sorry. He had moments where he absolutely beasted a stock but I took majority that day. Not to mention Ninjalink has footage up of his Ike playing Drk.Pch. also, so kindly stuff the namedrops without looking into things. M2k would outrightly spank me, especially since nervousness would deterioriate what game I already have but I don't fear a falco or link on stages with platforms, of which more exist than those that existed without. The 2 characters that outrightly ***** down Ike without a second thought are Marth (and the marth still has to be the better player, it's not an automatic given matchup though getting ike offstage puts this heavily on marth's side) and Olimar, an olimar doesn't even have to move and gets an automatic advantage for such a decision.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I want you to play against Deva/Izaw's Link with Ike.
Or overswarm's ROB.
OR Sethlon's Falco.
or Mr. 3000's Sonic.
Or M2K's MK
or Drk. Pch's Peach.
Try Ryoko's Zelda as well

Ike either cannot approach them, gets rushed down by them or just gets gimped badly by them.

half of the people you mentioned have lost to Ikes of there level.

Kind of hard getting into the Ike conversation with all of the one sentence replies going on so I'm just going to say a few things that stood out to me.

With close up combat Ike actually has a pretty good game. The jab is great as it can be canceled into more jabs, grabs, Utilt or Dtilt, and it can potentially lead into Fairs, Nairs, and Ftilts if the opponent doesn't react right. Grabs can also lead into dash attacks other grabs and jabs onto other characters. Saying the jab isn't enough to punish close range combat doesn't sound right to me.

Lets see what else.

Well his Bair can hit short opponents if he FF a short hop. Aerials aren't Ike's greatest trait but they aren't to bad either. And that bit of someone deciding to attack you while your attacking sounds a bit strange. To me it sounds like your saying someone saw Ike using his attack and decided to jump and intercept it which very few moves can do that I believe. If you are on the ledge you can do a ledge hop Nair/Fair or drop down aether, regrab the ledge
QD onto the stage, roll, stand up, attack, or jump. Honestly this is a bad position for a lot of characters no Ike and it limits everyones options but Ike still has a few.

While opponents are running away from Ike they tend to run out of room limiting there options. Once Ike gets up close the lag from spamming projectiles can be punished. Platforms always help against this as well so the stage can change how effective this strategy is by a lot. As for metaknight and marth being able to break projectiles with there attacks well Ike can do that by PS, or if you really want to do it with an attack you can do it with a jab or U tilt for the stronger projectiles. QD against that spiky thing of DDD's.

Marth/metaknight can bother be out range by Fair and maybe Nair I think. Marth can be shield grabbed if he gets to close as well.
No idea on sonic because I don't fight any but warrio can once again be out ranged (don't know about that infinite thing.) and jiggilypuff isn't much of a problem with her low weight and Ike's superior range.
Olimar does own Ike pretty easily the best thing I could say would be to wait for your chance and get out of his projectile reach to get him to move around.

 

[Rykoshet]

You can also ledgehop an up air to clear the immediate area around the ledge since it has such a wide range of motion and a long standing hitbox.

 

[popsofctown]

I don't understand how Zelda has any sort of advantageous match against Ike. Thankfully, I don't need to when picking her character slot.

Haha, amen... If you blind picked against an Ike, would you transform to Sheik immediately, or wait for first opportunity? He can punish a transform with a lot of damage, but he can't kill Sheik at 0%, i'm not sure whether the difference in the two characters abilities is worth transforming outright.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Wait. Ike loses out to MK?

That's news to me.

Smooth Criminal

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't understand how Zelda has any sort of advantageous match against Ike. Thankfully, I don't need to when picking her character slot.

Lol, all I had to do was mention your matches and you both dropped by the thread, sweet. The actual people involved>third party who knows the situation.






Anyway, there you have it ShadowLink, Ryoko is one of the best (if not the best) Zelda/Sheik players around. If Ryoko doesn't think that Zelda has an advantage against Ike, then odds are, without a major shift in the metagame, she doesn't.

Oh jesus I just realized



We were in the same crew and played eachother multiple times, really. He actually made a topic the day after the first time asking specifically how to deal with ike. Fkn name droppers asking about specific people as evidence instead of figuring it out for their **** selves, sheesh. Hell, our 3 month old matches from the very very first time we ran into eachother are on my YT channel. If it wasnt great sea, he generally didn't spank me, sorry. He had moments where he absolutely beasted a stock but I took majority that day. Not to mention Ninjalink has footage up of his Ike playing Drk.Pch. also, so kindly stuff the namedrops without looking into things. M2k would outrightly spank me, especially since nervousness would deterioriate what game I already have but I don't fear a falco or link on stages with platforms, of which more exist than those that existed without. The 2 characters that outrightly ***** down Ike without a second thought are Marth (and the marth still has to be the better player, it's not an automatic given matchup though getting ike offstage puts this heavily on marth's side) and Olimar, an olimar doesn't even have to move and gets an automatic advantage for such a decision.

Yeah, lol at namedroppers, it's always funny when the names they drop have the opposite viewpoint. But annoying.

Reminds me of a conversation we had on a particular person that kept name-dropping Ryoko for why Zelda was an Ike counter-pick.

Didn't know about Peach though, maybe I need to hang out by the Ike boards more.

Haha, amen... If you blind picked against an Ike, would you transform to Sheik immediately, or wait for first opportunity? He can punish a transform with a lot of damage, but he can't kill Sheik at 0%, i'm not sure whether the difference in the two characters abilities is worth transforming outright.

It's a neutral vs. a 60-40. Keeping mind that Ike can't really kill at 0, and at relatively low percents Sheik is especially useful (ftilt ftw).

You'll probably each a good 20-30% from this and lose momentum if you change outright, so the important question is, "is your sheik worth it?", if not, wait to clear out.

Wait. Ike loses out to MK?

That's news to me.

Smooth Criminal

Yeah, I know. This is so surprising, I never would've guessed!

 

[Rykoshet]

Well his Bair can hit short opponents if he FF a short hop.

If spaced correctly his bair can actually hit short opponents on ascent since it angles lightly downward when he throws it, it's just not viable if the person is directly behind you, they have to be a step or 2 out. For people directly behind you that are short, nair is more useful.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Individually quoting is such a bummer. I prefer to just add color to the quoted post.

you suck XD

I'd argue that while the lack of speed is worse than say, MK having that range, it doesn't really eliminate the fact that he has that range is still a boon.

It is a boon but the thing is that its not as great as it should be.

Point taken, though the back aerial has good enough knockback to not just leave you open, even at low percents.

Assuming it hits though and its not too hard to predict what aerial is coming out when Ike has his back turned to you

You still have means of attacki g, of course. Aerial's aren't Ike's "best" thing, but that doesn't mean they suck. He's still got a good aerial game.

The problem is that in such a position he doesn't have many options because he can't really change his position very quickly so easily.
it is why its hard to land camp Wario because the speed at which he moves is great so he isn't forced within a certain area.
you can attack but it won't usually work.

Unlike MK's Fsmash, the Forward aerial has better range and can be used while moving.

So? The amount of distance he moves performing the Fair isn't great so he has to be a step ahead of his opponent in comparison.

Haha, I'm looking forward to the matches. Yeah, spacing is harder against fast opponents, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do. I hate to say "play smart" but it is kind of applicable against Meta Knight.

of course it isn't impossible. But it is very difficult and hereally can't recover and get out of a bad situation easily.

Yeah, you'll take the damage. Probably not 20, but you'll take some. The opponent certainly will attempt to move around, but you WILL reach them.

When though? And what kind of position will you e when you reach them?
If I approach link, he can bomb smash then toss a bomb o double arrow and use his gale boomerang to harass. He also has his zai. You WILL reach them but not only will you take damage but the position you will be in is usually going to place Ike at a disadvantage.

The Fair and Quick Draw beat it as well, though QD is not really useful here unless you time it perfectly to not have lag.

Sorry I thought I had typed Fair not Dair. Sorry about that.

I still wouldn't call DK's better than Ike's, due to some small features.

Yes I understand but DK's just allows him to move moe feely while Ike's is predictable and leads to easier edgeguarding.

Predictable is not always bad.

True in which case thats when you factor in speed which Ike's recovey lacks. Its basically saying hey I am going to be right here.

Ike doesn't have a poor aerial game, first of all. Secondly, Ike can do that if he's on the edge. But well, most people playing against Ike know that Ike can aether from the edge for damage.

And what just continue tying to hog the edge?
If yo go for an aether it can be shielded and lead to punishment. If you go for the edge you can get edgehogged due to how long and predictable the move is.

Ike's aerial game is poor.
Compare it to Sonic's and you'll see Ike's is severely lacking. You can compare it to Link's as well and you'll find he has less speed.
He is similar to Ganondorf in that his aeials are not useful beyond SH range.

Yeah, they have more spots to choose from, but the recovery has to be good in first place.

yes and in comparison it is better than Ike. The opponent cannot predict their placement as easily and so have more difficulty in edge guarding them.

He can break it, but I'll admit that the momentum some campers have is really trying.

Well its just not some campers its a large amount of them. Wolf and olimar being the pime examples as well as Snake.

I, personally, use the Fair more of as a finisher to something like "Nair->Jab->Grab->Fthrow->Fair", not as a combo move.

Well its not used as a combo starter more as a method of disrupting the campers game and quickly following up before they can attack.

The Dash attack's range is underestimated, however.

Agreed the range is really good.

Up smash is more for punishing airdodges, dahs attack is alright.

I mention the Usmash since its for in case ythe opponent is at the edge and attempts t go over you.

The neutral aerial is lagless when shorthopped, by yeah, they'll be trying to escape.

yes but otherwise what other options does he have? Considering it doesn't cover much area above him.

I'm not too knowledgeable about Sonic or Olimar, so I can't explain those. MK and Marth's Fair you CAN counter, but you're going to have to do that intelligently. You can try to beat them with aerials of your own, the retreating Forward Aerial ,once again, help here. And as for Jiggly and Wario, Ike can infinite Wario if he makes the mistake of double jumping, so I guess Up tilting and baiting is the way to go. As for Jiggly, even the range advantage with stuff like Nair is too good.

Well Jiggly sucks anyways so thats an error on my parts .
For Wario and MK I am doubtful due to their ability to change direction quickly and stay out of range.

They are applicable enough, but at a lower level, camp tactics and gimps can easily defeat Ike. It needs to skill to not be destroyed by those, which is actually why the typecast "n00b Ike" is such a wrong thing, haha.

Agreed.
However I still believe that campping can lead to issue because even if you don't take agood amount of damage, you're being placed into positions you do not really wish to be in.

 

[gantrain05]

meh, ikes arials are a step below ganons imo lol, as least ganon has a sweet *** Uair and Dair, not to mention he's just way more badass than "i fight for my friends" ike.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ganons aerials all have lag if you do not use them as soon as possible upon SHing.
At least Ike has range with IASA frames and much less lag in terms of ending lag.
And he has a sword.

Ganon has no sword since its a part of his rectum. (hence the purople clouds around it)

 

[gantrain05]

Ganons aerials all have lag if you do not use them as soon as possible upon SHing.
At least Ike has range with IASA frames and much less lag in terms of ending lag.
And he has a sword.

Ganon has no sword since its a part of his rectum. (hence the purople clouds around it)

oh yeah, well ike is still gay, i win lol.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Gays get beter sex than heterosexuals actually.

 

[gantrain05]

Gays get beter sex than heterosexuals actually.

oh snap, i guess your right.

but anyways, back on topic, does anyone else think the placement of ness and lucas on the officiabl SBR tier list is kind of, i don't know, wrong? i mean obviously ness is better than lucas, and i don't think that they really deserve low tier, i was thinkin mid tier, but maybe im just biased.

 

[Gindler]

Is there a link to this "official tier list"?

 

[popsofctown]

it's a sticky in the general discussion board

 

[AlexX]

Wait. Ike loses out to MK?

That's news to me.

The match-up is 6-4 MK. Ike has the disadvantage, but if he can step it up he's got a fighting chance.

 

[YagamiLight]

It is a boon but the thing is that its not as great as it should be.
Everything has it's faults, of course.

Assuming it hits though and its not too hard to predict what aerial is coming out when Ike has his back turned to you
If his back is towards you, he might jump away, land and has many thing to do besides the obligatory Bair.


The problem is that in such a position he doesn't have many options because he can't really change his position very quickly so easily.
it is why its hard to land camp Wario because the speed at which he moves is great so he isn't forced within a certain area.
you can attack but it won't usually work.
It's not hard to land camp Ike, yes, but as we've established you can't do it for long


So? The amount of distance he moves performing the Fair isn't great so he has to be a step ahead of his opponent in comparison.
Ike players need to be a step ahead, physically and mentally anyways. It comes with the character.


When though? And what kind of position will you e when you reach them?
If I approach link, he can bomb smash then toss a bomb o double arrow and use his gale boomerang to harass. He also has his zair. You WILL reach them but not only will you take damage but the position you will be in is usually going to place Ike at a disadvantage.
And yet, somehow, hitting them with a jab combo will even it out, haha.


Yes I understand but DK's just allows him to move moe feely while Ike's is predictable and leads to easier edgeguarding. Noted.


True in which case thats when you factor in speed which Ike's recovey lacks. Its basically saying hey I am going to be right here. And it also says "Do something about my Super Armor and Vertical Projectile, if you can.


And what just continue tying to hog the edge?
If yo go for an aether it can be shielded and lead to punishment. If you go for the edge you can get edgehogged due to how long and predictable the move is. You can ledgehop quite a few things with Ike, in addition to rolling or doing a ledge attack. It's not like he lacks options.

Ike's aerial game is poor. I thought we established that his aerials were good?
Compare it to Sonic's and you'll see Ike's is severely lacking. You can compare it to Link's as well and you'll find he has less speed.
He is similar to Ganondorf in that his aeials are not useful beyond SH range. Even if he has to SH them, that doesn't mean they are bad aerials.



yes and in comparison it is better than Ike. The opponent cannot predict their placement as easily and so have more difficulty in edge guarding them. The recovery itself is worse than Ike's, even with predictaility.





Well its just not some campers its a large amount of them. Wolf and olimar being the pime examples as well as Snake. Snake's not really that much of a hassle, but some characters can hassle others with projectiles, yes.


Well its not used as a combo starter more as a method of disrupting the campers game and quickly following up before they can attack. Well, yes.


I mention the Usmash since its for in case ythe opponent is at the edge and attempts t go over you. Ah, alright.


yes but otherwise what other options does he have? Considering it doesn't cover much area above him. The Nair doesn't cover much aerial space, but he certianly has moves that do.


Well Jiggly sucks anyways so thats an error on my parts . Poor Jiggly.
For Wario and MK I am doubtful due to their ability to change direction quickly and stay out of range.

Nah, he can handle them, seeing as how, however fast they may be, he's got tools to handle it.

Agreed.
However I still believe that campping can lead to issue because even if you don't take agood amount of damage, you're being placed into positions you do not really wish to be in. You'll be placed in an uncomfortable position, but you'll get out of it and cause massive damage. That's Ike for ya.

I don't think you can say that Ike isn't a good character, regardless if projectile users begin with the upper hand in a match.

 

[viparagon]

oh snap, i guess your right.

but anyways, back on topic, does anyone else think the placement of ness and lucas on the officiabl SBR tier list is kind of, i don't know, wrong? i mean obviously ness is better than lucas, and i don't think that they really deserve low tier, i was thinkin mid tier, but maybe im just biased.

Yeah, it jets a little murky around there

 

[flame013191]

Yoshi's at the bottom....

 

[missingnomaster]

Yoshi's at the bottom....

In bottom, not at the bottom. And technically it's Low right now.

 

[aeghrur]

Pichu for God tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Everything has it's faults, of course.

I see no faults with MK or Marth and they have less range.

If his back is towards you, he might jump away, land and has many thing to do besides the obligatory Bair.

Empty shorthops are performed by many characters other than Ike and what else does Ike have in such a position other than the Nair?

It's not hard to land camp Ike, yes, but as we've established you can't do it for long

Why? Ike can't do much in sucha position that I can easily shield.

Ike players need to be a step ahead, physically and mentally anyways. It comes with the character.

This can be said for any other character.

And yet, somehow, hitting them with a jab combo will even it out, haha.

Assuming you actually do manage to jab them if you manag t get close or are in such a position to do so without getting grabbed.

And it also says "Do something about my Super Armor and Vertical Projectile, if you can.

Don't need to, I can easily stay a bit away from the ledge where anything you do afterwards can be punished. Or I can just drop a spring as Sonic.

You can ledgehop quite a few things with Ike, in addition to rolling or doing a ledge attack. It's not like he lacks options.

Rolling has vulnerability frames.
Doing a ledge attack is often too slow and not a great amount of height to it.
If the opponent stays just out of Ike's sword range that places Ike in a very comrpomising position.
For example look at marth, he is much faster than Ike with better ledgehopping but he is still in a rather compromising position.

Even if he has to SH them, that doesn't mean they are bad aerials.

It does. Sine the opponent can simply just outdo you by attacking you directly when you are in the air because they know they can land the first hit before you can.

The recovery itself is worse than Ike's, even with predictaility.

in what way?
With Ike its either the ledge or the stage.
With Wolf and DK its either the ledge, the edge of the stage or another part of it.
More options is good.

Snake's not really that much of a hassle, but some characters can hassle others with projectiles, yes.

yes at which point Ike is going to have a problem. He has the means to kill there is no doubt, but actually getting them to the damage necessary can be difficult.

The Nair doesn't cover much aerial space, but he certianly has moves that do.

The Fair covers the most but it is rather slow in startup and its not hard to get out of the way or air dodge the attack.

Po

or Jiggly.

No rest for j00.

Nah, he can handle them, seeing as how, however fast they may be, he's got tools to handle it.

Name them please.

You'll be placed in an uncomfortable position, but you'll get out of it and cause massive damage. That's Ike for ya.

Once you are in that uncomfortable position your opponent can do what they want.
If I l chucka boomerang to force you into the air what will you do? I can easily land camp you.

Ike doesn't get out of bad situations easily.
Yeah while he can cause a good amount of damage its not massive per ay nor can he follow anything up easily.

 

[Rykoshet]

Empty shorthops are performed by many characters other than Ike and what else does Ike have in such a position other than the Nair?

Throwing the back air while retreating the other way so he can realign himself if you really really REALLY have to turn around, not to mention there's turning around and jabbing or grabbing, something all ikes should have learned how to do by now, a 4 frame jab comes out just as quick even if he has to do it behind him.

Don't need to, I can easily stay a bit away from the ledge where anything you do afterwards can be punished. Or I can just drop a spring as Sonic

Ike is one of the few characters where spring dropping is more dangerous than the possible reward, it's not hard for an ike to let his super armor eat the spring by timing aether right as he sees you run out. I've done it countless times.

Sine the opponent can simply just outdo you by attacking you directly when you are in the air because they know they can land the first hit before you can.

Ike's Nair is not slow at all and frankly if you know someone is going to attempt to beat you out you retreat the forward aimed aerials.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Throwing the back air while retreating the other way so he can realign himself if you really really REALLY have to turn around, not to mention there's turning around and jabbing or grabbing, something all ikes should have learned how to do by now, a 4 frame jab comes out just as quick even if he has to do it behind him.

You're better off tossing the Bair out then then go into the jabs/grabs since the opponent will think the cooldown time is in effect.
Considering that at that point all you can do is jab and grab isn't very good either.

Ike is one of the few characters where spring dropping is more dangerous than the possible reward, it's not hard for an ike to let his super armor eat the spring by timing aether right as he sees you run out. I've done it countless times.

Dangerous?
In what way?
During spring dropping Sonic is in no way compromised because he should not be within range of the aether.

Ike's Nair is not slow at all and frankly if you know someone is going to attempt to beat you out you retreat the forward aimed aerials.

Retreating with Fairs? not vey intimidating since i can just rush forward and powershield the move then rush forward and attack before you can use the IASA frames. (bit more character specific but you undertand my point?)
I don't really like the Nair since while it is faster, it doesn't cover as much area and you on't have as much range.
I see your point though.

I just don't think its as effective from experience.