Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Gindler]

Well of course you'd rather have links boomerang. I know I would, especially since you just chuck it and forget about it (so does the opponent) and when it comes back it's not predictable, but yeah din's fire is a decent projectile I'd say. I prefer yoshi's eggs even though they're not as deadly, idk i think din's fire is more of a team weapon kinda like ness' pk flash.

 

[popsofctown]

comparing it to pk flash is a pretty good comparison.. lots of similarities

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Well of course you'd rather have links boomerang. I know I would, especially since you just chuck it and forget about it (so does the opponent) and when it comes back it's not predictable, but yeah din's fire is a decent projectile I'd say. I prefer yoshi's eggs even though they're not as deadly, idk i think din's fire is more of a team weapon kinda like ness' pk flash.

I prefer Din;s Fire for two reasons:

1. The gale boomerang just overall sucks. Very little damage, almost no knockback.

2. Zelda is a fairly campy character, so Din's Fire compliments her. If the likes of Fox or someone had it, I would probably never use it.

 

[eyestrain92]

Tiers are for Queers

Bidoof
Bidoof
Bidoof is on fire

 

[Zinc Elemental]

And to STH if you're reading this, lol- I don't hate zelda, I just know a lot about her. When people stay dumb things about her, I want to correct them. Just as I do when people say Olimar is easy peasy gimpage. It just isn't true at against better Olimars.

Why do you say he's not gimpable? His up-b helps a bit for getting back on the stage horizontally, but if he needs to grab the ledge, it's REALLY easy to edgehog him.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

And to STH if you're reading this, lol- I don't hate zelda, I just know a lot about her. When people stay dumb things about her, I want to correct them. Just as I do when people say Olimar is easy peasy gimpage. It just isn't true at against better Olimars.

Well, if someone was insanely good and just wiped the floor with everyone they aren't easily gimpable, but it is naive to say that in relation to other characters he isn't easily gimped.

He has a crappy jump, and a crappy tether recovery. The end.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

lol. People actually thinking Din's Fire is a bad projectile.

It doesn't matter if your opponent keeps dodging, it keeps them on their toes. They don't have time to charge or set up anything because they're constantly having to dodge the blasts.

It can't be reflected back at Zelda. If it hits a reflector, it simply disappears.

You can change the timing of the explosion by how close/far you ignite it. Din's Fire has a large hit box. Exploding it front and behind them creates two different timings. It's a lot harder to dodge when you keep mixing them up.

It's very good at edge guarding because of its range and control. You can hit them anywhere. Air dodging will make them lose precious height.

When Zelda is hit, Din's Fire keeps going until it hits something or reaches maximum distance and explodes. Good Zelda players angle Din's Fire toward the ground when the opponent is close. That way if you're hit, Din's Fire immediately hits the ground and explodes on them.

 

[DanGR]

Why do you say he's not gimpable? His up-b helps a bit for getting back on the stage horizontally, but if he needs to grab the ledge, it's REALLY easy to edgehog him.

I never said he wasn't gimpable. I said he wasn't "easy peasy gimpage". Against the best Olimar's, you won't kill them very often from offstage fighting. I can guarantee that. Most of your kills will come from knocking him out of the screen. Before I begin, I'm not saying he's ungimpable. Everything I'm pointing out below can make it hard and will make it hard.

I wrote this a while ago:

Olimar
-Can be edgehogged, but your timing has to be good against a good Olimar. Olimar's tether is the longest of every tether recovery in the game. This means that there's a large window of opportunity I have to latch. If you time your roll back to stage too early, I'll wait a second before I latch. On fd, Olimar can latch back to the stage from below the screen. It's that long. If you don't roll quickly enough, I'll spike you to your death. If I have a white or purple in front, I'll latch to the stage, and you'll die. If not, we both die.

-Olimar can save his second jump. If his jumps can get him back to the stage, he should not be gimped. Period. He's very floaty, so most of the time, he'll be able to get back to the stage with/o having to use his second jump. This leads me to my next point.

-Olimar's whistle has super armor frames. If I'm forced to use my second jump to get back, I'm probably recovering from below. The SA in the whistle is more than enough to avoid gimping(not edgehogging) almost entirely on most of the cast. Ironically, the exceptions happen to be some of Olimar's bad matchups: (his only bad matchups if you were to ask me) MK, Peach, Kirby, and Yoshi. MK is MK, Peach has floating and turnips, Kirby has an awesome bair that's one of the only moves that can be consistenly timed to fit in between consecutive whistles, and yoshi has dair. Funny how that works eh?

-Pikmin chain gives Olimar a slight boost. Often times, this gives Olimar enough of a jump to get back to the stage without being edgehogged. It has a hitbox, and if timed right, you'll get spiked, even when it's not latching the edge. It also has some sort of strange uber priority, where no attack will clank with it. If Olimar is hit during it though, it won't give him the priority. I'd compare it with his grab-armorless tether grab.

-Pikmin can be thrown to get you off the edge. If I've got a purple up next, it'll knock you off, clearing an open ledge for Olimar. If I've got a white, and I'm too far from the stage to make it back, I'll go ahead and throw it onto you to rack 10-25% easily.

-Regular attacks to knock you off. This is simple. If I'm close enough to attack you while you hang, you bet I will. I'll knock you off or force you to roll off, and latch two seconds later with my extremely long tether.

Shrinkray has a nice combo video that includes some of these tactics that I've explained above:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9qxZc67rnc

Olimar is by no means the most gimpable character in brawl.

Well, if someone was insanely good and just wiped the floor with everyone they aren't easily gimpable, but it is naive to say that in relation to other characters he isn't easily gimped.

He has a crappy jump, and a crappy tether recovery. The end.

Olimar would be above falco in top tier if he had a good nontether recovery such as GaW's or Rob's. You can bet on that. He does wipe the floor with his opponents onstage. Off-stage he has to be very conservative and has to have the goal to get back on the ground. This limits him edgeguarding as well. Mostly, the only options we have are to throw pikmin and spam fsmash offstage. If only...

Edit:
responses in this sexy blue color I found.

lol. People actually thinking Din's Fire is a bad projectile.
lol, yup.

It doesn't matter if your opponent keeps dodging, it keeps them on their toes. They don't have time to charge or set up anything because they're constantly having to dodge the blasts.
say what? In between din's you can charge ANYTHING that needs charging, including needles, DK's punch, and even waft. I've delayed approaching my friend's din's spamming zelda just to charge my waft before.

It can't be reflected back at Zelda. If it hits a reflector, it simply disappears.
It sure can. check again. If it hits a reflector and the hitbox overlaps zelda, it will hit her.

You can change the timing of the explosion by how close/far you ignite it. Din's Fire has a large hit box. Exploding it front and behind them creates two different timings. It's a lot harder to dodge when you keep mixing them up.
An airdodge and a roll lasts longer than the time it takes for din's to travel from minimum range to max range and explode. The explosion doesn't have enough of a lingering hitbox to make this a real problem.
Also, you can just shield it. >_>

It's very good at edge guarding because of its range and control. You can hit them anywhere. Air dodging will make them lose precious height.
It fails in comparison with most edgeguarders. + If you're below the place where dodging will kill you, you can just take the hit to stay alive. It won't kill you. That's the goal getting back. Most edgeguarders will try to kill you. :O

When Zelda is hit, Din's Fire keeps going until it hits something or reaches maximum distance and explodes. Good Zelda players angle Din's Fire toward the ground when the opponent is close. That way if you're hit, Din's Fire immediately hits the ground and explodes on them.
If Zelda is close enough to get hit by an attack, exploding din's early does NOTHING. Most attacks will just "go" through it. It has priority this time around. Airdodging the attack and landing and punishing can work just as well in most situations.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

Olimar
-Can be edgehogged, but your timing has to be good against a good Olimar. Olimar's tether is the longest of every tether recovery in the game. This means that there's a large window of opportunity I have to latch. If you time your roll back to stage too early, I'll wait a second before I latch. On fd, Olimar can latch back to the stage from below the screen. It's that long. If you don't roll quickly enough, I'll spike you to your death. If I have a white or purple in front, I'll latch to the stage, and you'll die. If not, we both die.

I would be willing to bet money that the bold part is false. I used to main Zamus and Olimar when Brawl first came out, and Zamus had WAY more range.

 

[gantrain05]

its not really THAT easy to edgehog a good olimar, if they know you are going to edgehog, they can easily throw a purple pikmin at you before using the tether, you will either have to get back onstage or be stage spiked and die, not to mention his tether is INSANELY long, you can wait for a long time before you actually have to use it, which makes the edgehogging alot harder since you don't actually know when he's going to use it.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

its not really THAT easy to edgehog a good olimar, if they know you are going to edgehog, they can easily throw a purple pikmin at you before using the tether, you will either have to get back onstage or be stage spiked and die, not to mention his tether is INSANELY long, you can wait for a long time before you actually have to use it, which makes the edgehogging alot harder since you don't actually know when he's going to use it.

Chances are he's not going to have a purple next in row. Trying to get one with the whistle while falling is risky because it could take several tries and you lose a lot of height. His tether isn't that long, especially if he doesn't have six pikmin. I've played good Olimar's. They're not as hard to gimp as they want you to believe. Olimar's recovery is bad. It's not the worst but it's still bad.

 

[DanGR]

Chances are he's not going to have a purple next in row, but will have a white in the lineup and/or his very floaty double jump with him. Trying to get one with the whistle while falling isn't risky at all because it may only take a couple tries and it's about as fast as DK's dtilt. His tether isn't that long if he has less than 6 pikmin. Otherwise, it has more vertical recovery than any other character's special recovery in the game excluding Pit, Rob, Diddy, Zelda, Pikachu, and Sonic. I've played decent Olimars. The bad ones aren't as hard to gimp as they want you to believe. Olimar's recovery is bad. It's not the worst but it's still bad.

Corrected to my liking.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

^ If "good" means you've played a lot of Olimars online, then I don't think that counts for very much.

Smooth Criminal

 

[gantrain05]

Corrected to my liking.

lol DanGR's post is just full of win.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

say what? In between din's you can charge ANYTHING that needs charging, including needles, DK's punch, and even waft. I've delayed approaching my friend's din's spamming zelda just to charge my waft before.

Why did you mention waft? You don't do anything to charge it, it charges on its own. What you do is hop forward and use Din's Fire. You keep moving closer and applying pressure which prevents them from fully charging up their attack. As you get closer, the length of time they have to charge dimishes. Once you're pretty close, they no longer have time to charge in between blasts. They're forced to approach.

It sure can. check again. If it hits a reflector and the hitbox overlaps zelda, it will hit her.

That only happens if Zelda is standing right next to them. Zelda is perfectly safe if she's a good distance away and that's what I meant. Any any projectle aside from PK Flash and Freeze can be used against them.

An airdodge and a roll lasts longer than the time it takes for din's to travel from minimum range to max range and explode. The explosion doesn't have enough of a lingering hitbox to make this a real problem.
Also, you can just shield it. >_>

No they don't. Din's Fire's hitbox is lot bigger than it appears to be. If you hit at the very edges, the difference is about a second apart. Dodging and rolling don't give you a second of invincibliy frames. By the way, air dodging gives you less than side dodging.

It fails in comparison with most edgeguarders. + If you're below the place where dodging will kill you, you can just take the hit to stay alive. It won't kill you. That's the goal getting back. Most edgeguarders will try to kill you. :O

Din's Fire can kill you if your percent is high enough. Din's Fire's knock back and damage are increased the longer it travels. Geting hit while trying to recover has quite a bit of knock back. The edge guard isn't as effective but it provides Zelda no risk. She can potentially hit you anywhere and there's no risk of her getting hit or killed.

If Zelda is close enough to get hit by an attack, exploding din's early does NOTHING. Most attacks will just "go" through it. It has priority this time around. Airdodging the attack and landing and punishing can work just as well in most situations.

You missed the point. You hit and interrupt her Din's Fire. It's angled towards the ground and hits it, exploding ontop of you. It forces you to exchange hits. You hit her and Din's Fire explodes on you. You don't have to time to shield or avoid the explosion because it happens instantly after she's hit. This technique prevents you from taking advantage of her vulnerable state without you taking damage as well.

 

[gantrain05]

thats the stupidest strategy i've ever heard princemarth, you short hop your dins fires? you must play a bunch of noobcakes, cuz in the real world you would get punished hard for that, you know you cant do ANYTHING until dins fire explodes and you land again and then you gotta wait for landing lag on it, dins fire is NOT an approach lol.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

thats the stupidest strategy i've ever heard princemarth, you short hop your dins fires? you must play a bunch of noobcakes, cuz in the real world you would get punished hard for that, you know you cant do ANYTHING until dins fire explodes and you land again and then you gotta wait for landing lag on it, dins fire is NOT an approach lol.

It works well when you're a good distance away. They don't have time to get close enough and punish you. If they try then they have to deal with the incoming fireball. And no, I play plenty of good people. The problem is you're not thinking outside the box. People won't be expecting you to short hop a Din's Fire and will be caught off guard. Moving a little distance closer makes a big difference. But with all things, if you're predictable with it then yeah, you will be punished. It's risky maneuver but just because it's risky doesn't make it bad.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why shorthop Din's Fire at all when you can just stand there and safely launch it from a base that's easier to recover from?

Practicality precedes mindgame potential at times, Prince.

Smooth Criminal

 

[DanGR]

more sexy blue letters in a sexier blue color than last time.

Why did you mention waft? You don't do anything to charge it, it charges on its own. What you do is hop forward and use Din's Fire. You keep moving closer and applying pressure which prevents them from fully charging up their attack. As you get closer, the length of time they have to charge dimishes. Once you're pretty close, they no longer have time to charge in between blasts. They're forced to approach.
I mentioned waft because it charges. I could bet you money that if I put 1% damage on you in the beginning of a 7 minute match, I could dodge din's for 7 straight minutes to win the fight. No joke.

You don't approach with din's. You're making a joke right? If not, I'm sure someone else will correct you by the time I finish this post. LOL

That only happens if Zelda is standing right next to them. Zelda is perfectly safe if she's a good distance away and that's what I meant. Any any projectle aside from PK Flash and Freeze can be used against them.
k

No they don't. Din's Fire's hitbox is lot bigger than it appears to be. If you hit at the very edges, the difference is about a second apart. Dodging and rolling don't give you a second of invincibliy frames. By the way, air dodging gives you less than side dodging.
You don't need to tell me about din's properties. I know them all. I wrote a guide on how to outcamp it.

Anyways, dodging into a direction will make what I said earlier true. That was a given. I'll make it clearer next time.

Din's Fire can kill you if your percent is high enough. Din's Fire's knock back and damage are increased the longer it travels. Geting hit while trying to recover has quite a bit of knock back. The edge guard isn't as effective but it provides Zelda no risk. She can potentially hit you anywhere and there's no risk of her getting hit or killed.

That's broken stuff if it were true.

You missed the point. You hit and interrupt her Din's Fire. It's angled towards the ground and hits it, exploding ontop of you. It forces you to exchange hits. You hit her and Din's Fire explodes on you. You don't have to time to shield or avoid the explosion because it happens instantly after she's hit. This technique prevents you from taking advantage of her vulnerable state without you taking damage as well.
I'm saying that the hitbox on din's fire doesn't matter. Unless I'm stupid, I'll use an attack that doesn't have tremendous lag. As the din's is falling into the ground, I'll be shielding. If you let din's off as I hit you or airdodge, I'll punish the clank or complete miss with an attack. You really have no option but to get punished for using din's. You don't have a choice.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

The point to short hop is to get closer quicker while applying pressure. Due to how Zelda floats in the air while using it, it allows her to move forward 1/3 the length of Final Destination. The fireball stays in front of you while you're moving forward. If they charge forward, you can drop it to the ground and they will either get hit or avoid it. If they approach by air then it's easier because the fireball is already in the air, directly in front of you. By the time their dodge ends, you're back on the ground and in control. It's not just mindgames. It's a decent approach as long as they don't predict it beforehand. This approach is not meant to get right in the face of the opponent, it's meant to close the distance while mantaining some.

 

[DanGR]

^I guess if you're far enough that there's no way I can't run up and airdodge and then punish in time, then sure. It's not a bad idea.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Waitwaitwaitwait. Pressuring somebody with Din's Fire?

Okay. I see Din's Fire coming (because you just shorthopped and, you know, went into the longish animation for launching the projectile). I powershield or spot dodge that **** and proceed to either foxtrot into boost smashing your *** or shieldgrab providing you're close enough.

>__> C'mon, Prince.

Edit: I just saw DangR's post. Whoops.

Smooth Criminal

 

[PrinceMarthX]

The fireball stays directly in front of Zelda while she's moving forward for the first second. As you're about to land, it moves a bit distance away. If you charge forward and power shield it, you're still about Marth's foward smash range away from hitting her. By that time she's back on the ground and in control. The ending lag for Din's Fire isn't as long as you think it is. So unless you have Marth's range, you won't be able to take advantage. But if you dash forward immediately before she does the short hop (predicted it). You will run ahead of her fireball and she will be wide open

 

[gantrain05]

jeez using that as an approach would give even capn falcon an advantage in that matchup lol.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Falcon's speed would certainly give him an advantage against that. lol

 

[Snowstalker]

GOD:

Meta Knight

No one's arguing this.

TOP:

Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
King Dedede
Falco
Marth
R.O.B

Yup, Snake is closer to DDD and GaW than he is to MK.

HIGH:

Wario
Lucario
Olimar
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Pit

The first big tier. Not much to say, but the ICs might be a bit high.

MIDDLE:

Toon Link
Zelda
Fox
Peach
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Shiek
Lucas
Mario
Bowser

The biggest tier. Only thing to say here is that Ness is better than Lucas. Everyone knows that, except the SBR, apparently.

LOW:

Yoshi
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic
Samus
Ike
Jigglypuff
Link

Ike is so low because, although he has okay tourney results, he has no potential whatsoever.
I think that Jiggz and Link are good enough to be in Low, not Bottom.

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

Nothing to say here.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike is so low because, although he has okay tourney results, he has no potential whatsoever.

This travesty of an argument is one that should not only stop being said, but everyone who says it should be jailed.

The argument has two faults, in essence:

Fault 1: You assume that Ike has no potential.

"Potential" is not only a subjective term, but it's also a stupid one. First off, there is no limit to how good someone can get with a character, they grow endlessly. Secondly, how on Earth can you possibly say that a character lacks potential just like that. ATs and every can be discovered overnight, while some characters currently that have "potential" (Pokemon Trainer) might never realize that due to extreme barriers to playing them.

Fault 2: You assume Ike is bad.

If Ike did lack "potential", you still have to assert one thing. Why is Ike on par with Fox (An accepted high-mid character) if he is as bad as some of you clearly seem to think? It may be that you've never played a good Ike, or you may just have gotten sick of some scrubs who abuse the Fsmash. Whatever the case for your inherent bias against Ike, if he really was "terrible" then he would not have the place on the character rankings list that he currently occupies. It's no fluke that Ike can place above Zelda and Toon Link, and other good characters - trust me.

Oh and in case there is any doubt, I DO main Ike, but I wouldn't say I think better of him than he really is. If a character is good, I see them as that. Really simple. At the very worst, you're going to get very logical arguments from me either way.

 

[Browny]

remember, when saying a move is good/bad, its all relative.

Dins fire may look good, but how many other projectiles are actually worse than it? maybe luigis fireballs, diddys peanut gun... thats it. its useless as an approach, results in an SD if you attempt to deter edgeguarders (which is where things like razor leaf, mario fireballs do quite well) and if two projectiles are fired at the same time, Zelda will always get hit since dins doesnt cancel out other projectiles.

 

[gantrain05]

why is everyone hatin on luigis fireballs, they really arent all that bad, i mean, they are really just a minor nuissance but, he can actually shoot those things at a pretty rapid pace, and he doesn't have to fear ending lag because luigi is a lag free maniac, do you have any idea how many arials luigi can pull off in like 1 jump? its like 5 or some crazy ****, thats not even with his double jump, but im off topic now, STOP HATIN ON THE WEEGIS FIREBALLS!.

 

[Browny]

do you have any idea how many arials luigi can pull off in like 1 jump? its like 5 or some crazy ****, thats not even with his double jump, but im off topic now, STOP HATIN ON THE WEEGIS FIREBALLS!.

actually, luigi can only do 2 in an SH, and 6 in a full double jump. Lucario can do 3 and 7 respectively

and were not hating on the fireballs, theres a difference between hating a projectile like falcos laser because its really good, and pointing out the facts as to why the fireballs are a relatively bad projectile.

 

[ShadowLink84]

If Ike did lack "potential", you still have to assert one thing. Why is Ike on par with Fox (An accepted high-mid character)

Where has any comptenent smasher ever gotten the idea of placing Ike in high mid?
Seriously please show me a tierlist by a competent smasher that actually agrees with such a terrible idea.

For one his overall speed is bad.
Bowser has more speed to his attacks than Ike.
All Ike has is his range and power, none of which can really be put to use because he is so slow.
Other than a few moves, he just cannot make his hits count.
Not only that, he has difficulty in approaching. Anyone with a projectile WILL give Ike Problems, simply because he does not have the movement speed, nor the attack speed to really get him close.

We also have his below average recovery.
Anyone with a horizontal trajectory to their attack can potentially kill Ike at low percents which is terrible.

He is far from being a high-mid character.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

dins fire is a good proyectile, but i think that discussion is already over
i think ivy's vinewhip is longer than pikmin chain, and any character with multiple jumps can go around the superarmor, kill olimar and go back to the stage

 

[YagamiLight]

Where has any comptenent smasher ever gotten the idea of placing Ike in high mid?
Seriously please show me a tierlist by a competent smasher that actually agrees with such a terrible idea.
To be honest, I was actually mentioning the tourney rankings, and while I have no comment on Ike's actual tier ranking, I can safely say that he's a good character.


For one his overall speed is bad. Fairly bad, yes. Tied with Kirby and Squirtle for running speed, and 19th(?) fastest falling speed wise.
Bowser has more speed to his attacks than Ike. While I admit I don't play any competent Bowsers, I think I'm fairly sure that the jab combo and back aerial outspeed any of Bowser's moves, while the rest outrange him.
All Ike has is his range and power, none of which can really be put to use because he is so slow. Other than a few moves, he just cannot make his hits count. Wait, are you saying good range is useless because of Ike's speed, or am I misunderstanding something? The great range clearly lessens Ike's poor speed by allowing him to reach the opponent faster. And as for making it count, have you ever seen a good Ike just throw attacks out there and hope they hit? Seriously.

Not only that, he has difficulty in approaching. Anyone with a projectile WILL give Ike Problems, simply because he does not have the movement speed, nor the attack speed to really get him close. I don't see how it's terribly hard to avoid projectiles. You can jump, powershield, spot dodge, airdodge and all the while you are moving close enough to put serious hurt on the opponent.

We also have his below average recovery.
Anyone with a horizontal trajectory to their attack can potentially kill Ike at low percents which is terrible. It's not a fantastic recovery, but I'd probably argue that it's better than Snake's, Wolf's, Falco's, DK's and other established "good" characters.

He is far from being a high-mid character.I dislike tier debates, but as I said, he's far from being a bad character. I maintain that he's quite good.

That said, people do have to address my logical fallacies for putting Ike in low for "potential" reasons.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Where has any comptenent smasher ever gotten the idea of placing Ike in high mid?
Seriously please show me a tierlist by a competent smasher that actually agrees with such a terrible idea.

For one his overall speed is bad.
Bowser has more speed to his attacks than Ike.
All Ike has is his range and power, none of which can really be put to use because he is so slow.
Other than a few moves, he just cannot make his hits count.
Not only that, he has difficulty in approaching. Anyone with a projectile WILL give Ike Problems, simply because he does not have the movement speed, nor the attack speed to really get him close.

We also have his below average recovery.
Anyone with a horizontal trajectory to their attack can potentially kill Ike at low percents which is terrible.

He is far from being a high-mid character.

Umbreon says hai. >.>

According to him "Ike beats pretty much everything Fox has with his jab combo"

 

[AlexX]

GOD:

Meta Knight

No one's arguing this.

I'm arguing it.

MK deserves to be sharing the top tier with Snake and the others. Yeah, most of his match-ups are 6-4, but that's hardly a clear victory for MK, it's just a slight advantage. He deserves to be topping the tier list, but a tier of his own? That's too much, because the other top and high-tiers can, for the most part, fight him and hold a reasonable chance of winning.

6-4 matches still being relatively even applies to other characters, too. For example, most of Ike's matchups are 6-4 out of his favor. That doesn't mean those characters counter him, it just means he's at a slight disadvantage. He is still fully capable of winning those 6-4 matches, otherwise they'd be something like 7-3 or 8-2. His only true "counters" are (arguably) Snake and Dedede.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

I'm arguing it.

MK deserves to be sharing the top tier with Snake and the others. Yeah, most of his match-ups are 6-4, but that's hardly a clear victory for MK, it's just a slight advantage. He deserves to be topping the tier list, but a tier of his own? That's too much, because the other top and high-tiers can, for the most part, fight him and hold a reasonable chance of winning.

6-4 matches still being relatively even applies to other characters, too. For example, most of Ike's matchups are 6-4 out of his favor. That doesn't mean those characters counter him, it just means he's at a slight disadvantage. He is still fully capable of winning those 6-4 matches, otherwise they'd be something like 7-3 or 8-2. His only true "counters" are (arguably) Snake and Dedede.

Yeah, like I have been saying, I truly think top should be MK and Snake, but no one else.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Umbreon says hai. >.>

According to him "Ike beats pretty much everything Fox has with his jab combo"

This pertains to what?
matchup wise or tierlist wise?
Either way I would disagree.
I an somewhat understand matchup wise but tierlist wise I disagree strongly.

To be honest, I was actually mentioning the tourney rankings, and while I have no comment on Ike's actual tier ranking, I can safely say that he's a good character.

The same can be said for a good amount of characters though.
Fox and sonic for example yet people still insist on Sonic being low tier and fox being uper mid for a reason other than the ranks.

While I admit I don't play any competent Bowsers, I think I'm fairly sure that the jab combo and back aerial outspeed any of Bowser's moves, while the rest outrange him.

yes this is true Ike's astest moves are his jab and bair. the problem is that the Bair has a rather awkward hitbox so its not extremely applicable.
The jabs are good but its far from being that of Snake's and he doesn't have anything else to really fight the opponent with upclose.
his close range game is not very good since he doesn't have enough to really keep up with the opponent.

Wait, are you saying good range is useless because of Ike's speed, or am I misunderstanding something? The great range clearly lessens Ike's poor speed by allowing him to reach the opponent faster. And as for making it count, have you ever seen a good Ike just throw attacks out there and hope they hit? Seriously

how does have massive range allow you to hit the opponent faster?
last I saw, Luigi has better range to his fireballs but they don't hit the opponent any faster.
the range doesn't let him hit the opponent faster it just lets him outrange them. he still has poor speed so as soon as he winds up the attack the opponent is well within range to attack.
his range cannot be put to use effectively because of the lack of speed.

Its basically giving a sword to ganondorf but having him swing at 2 inches per hour.

For one I played Ike for the majority of the time Braw came out. The whole time I was basically forced to try and keep the opponent away because as soon as they got upclose, i was in serious trouble. he can't exactly play defensive like marth or MK nor like Link either.

You can jump, powershield, spot dodge, airdodge and all the while you are moving close enough to put serious hurt on the opponent.

So can ganondorf and Bowser but they still cannot approach.
They do not have the tools to approach since when they approach, they are very predictable and can easily be taken advantage of.

I dare you to try and use what you listed against Link, Falco or DDD and I guarantee that while you may get close, you are going to take a good amount of damage.
Thats not even considering the fact that Ike doesn't have a large number of means for punishing an opponent.

He has a poor approach.

It's not a fantastic recovery, but I'd probably argue that it's better than Snake's, Wolf's, Falco's, DK's and other established "good" characters.

Falco's? Yes
DK's? No. Dk has high priority, good speed and good coverage for his recovery. he goes much farthr than ike with much less vulnerability.
Same for Wolf.
He is very far from being as good as Snake.

With Ike its either QD for horizontal movement (which is piss poor BTW)
or try and get in range for an aether which is extremely predictable.
his recovery is not as bad as Link, or Ganondorf but its just as vulnerable as Captain falcon's.

I dislike tier debates, but as I said, he's far from being a bad character. I maintain that he's quite good.

Much of what you said is flawed though.

He does not approach well. Cannot really punish beyond his jabs and grabs, his fastest moves have either awkward hitboxes orlack of range (Bair and Jabs and grabs).
Yeah he has great range and great power to his attacks. but the speed of his attacks really hold him back. in this defensive game he just does not function very well.

 

[AlexX]

Yeah, like I have been saying, I truly think top should be MK and Snake, but no one else.

Game & Watch's good matchups, quick attacks, absurd priority, and lingering hitboxes mean nothing? What about Dedede and his heavy hits, early killing power, and powerful grab game? What about Falco's spammable lazer and chaingrab that chops off half of almost everyone's life right off the bat?

Snake and MK are good, but they're not the only awesome characters.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Les forget aout the fact that DDD is heavily comboed and that when he gets spaced it tends to be an annoyance for him.

DDD is not top tier because his overall matchups and tourney rankings are nowhere near that of MK and Snake.

G&W is a contendor but otherwise DDD,Falco, and ROB should not be considered top tier material

 

[YagamiLight]

The same can be said for a good amount of characters though.
Fox and sonic for example yet people still insist on Sonic being low tier and fox being uper mid for a reason other than the ranks.
Point taken. I'd probably say that Sonic deserves better than what he got tier wise but that's another story.

yes this is true Ike's astest moves are his jab and bair. the problem is that the Bair has a rather awkward hitbox so its not extremely applicable.
The jabs are good but its far from being that of Snake's and he doesn't have anything else to really fight the opponent with upclose.
his close range game is not very good since he doesn't have enough to really keep up with the opponent.
The part about the back aerial having an awkward hitbox isn't really important as most Ike users are going to learn how to hit with it. As for the jab combo, I'd argue that it's just as good as Snake's is, as it does 2% more damage and doesn't miss some crouching characters (Like Mr. Game and Watch). His close range game is actually one of the best, but I think we're talking about different ranges. I was actually speaking of what Ike considers close range, namely one sword length apart.



how does have massive range allow you to hit the opponent faster?
last I saw, Luigi has better range to his fireballs but they don't hit the opponent any faster.
the range doesn't let him hit the opponent faster it just lets him outrange them. he still has poor speed so as soon as he winds up the attack the opponent is well within range to attack.
his range cannot be put to use effectively because of the lack of speed.

Luigi's fireballs are a projectile, so I wouldn't count those. When I said hit the opponent faster I meant prepare an attack from a farther distance, so as such mask the attack's wind up time (Such as the Forwards Air). Speaking of the forward air, you can jump, use it and pull back and due to the range it'll hit them, and be far enough away as if he was a fast character who hit and ran.

Its basically giving a sword to ganondorf but having him swing at 2 inches per hour.
You're not calling Ganondorf fast, are you?

For one I played Ike for the majority of the time Braw came out. The whole time I was basically forced to try and keep the opponent away because as soon as they got upclose, i was in serious trouble. he can't exactly play defensive like marth or MK nor like Link either.
Did you not use your jab combo or grabs whatsoever? They're practically made for that reason.

So can ganondorf and Bowser but they still cannot approach.
They do not have the tools to approach since when they approach, they are very predictable and can easily be taken advantage of.
Ganondorf and Bowser have larger sizes and ranges than Ike, so Ike has a better time of doing that.

I dare you to try and use what you listed against Link, Falco or DDD and I guarantee that while you may get close, you are going to take a good amount of damage.
Thats not even considering the fact that Ike doesn't have a large number of means for punishing an opponent.
He has a poor approach.
The only one out of those that you might get hit by is Falco, really. The other two are quite dodgeable. And I restate that Ike should punish with the jab combo and on occasion grabs.

Falco's? Yes
DK's? No. Dk has high priority, good speed and good coverage for his recovery. he goes much farthr than ike with much less vulnerability.
Same for Wolf.
He is very far from being as good as Snake.

DK's gets about as much vertical recovery as Yoshi's Egg Toss, if he's 10 feet below the stage you've lost a stock..
Wolf's Up B takes a second before he can even move afterward, and his side b either lands with him on the stage or he'll have to scar it, which isn't hard to predict.
As for Snake's, he's basically either asking you to spike him or if he does high up he'll have to fight an air battle, one of his worst suits.


With Ike its either QD for horizontal movement (which is piss poor BTW)
or try and get in range for an aether which is extremely predictable.
his recovery is not as bad as Link, or Ganondorf but its just as vulnerable as Captain falcon's.
Piss poor? Have you seen how much QD travels? The only flaw is that it's gimpable. And as for Aether, it's actually a good move that is in no way as vulnerable as CF's due to SA frames.

Much of what you said is flawed though.
He does not approach well. Cannot really punish beyond his jabs and grabs, his fastest moves have either awkward hitboxes orlack of range (Bair and Jabs and grabs).
Yeah he has great range and great power to his attacks. but the speed of his attacks really hold him back. in this defensive game he just does not function very well.
His approach game is good enough for not having a projectile, hoever. He doesn't need more than the jab to punish. The awkward hitboxes don't especially matter. I don't deny that if he had more speed, it'd be better, but as it stands his meh speed doesn't reduce his range and power by any means. The game has defensive elements, but Ike's offensive game is good enough to close in and beat those elements.

I don't particularly see the point of this debate, but I guess now that I'm in it I may as well answer the points.