Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Frown]

I've had enough of this thread, and the general lack of common sense that is being shown.
People putting Ike bottom tier and Sonic low low tier is getting too tiring. THE TIER LISTS ARE BASED PREDOMINATELY ON TOURNAMENT PLACINGS, followed by general matchups, and then general characters abilities.
Ike and Sonic's tournament results are better than over 15 members of the cast. Does this warrant bottom tier?
Sonic's match-ups aren't bad, and Ike's are slightly iffy but he doesn't get ***** hard by anyone. Again, does this warrant bottom tier?

Ugh. I'll be back in 5 pages when people have posted more bull**** lists.

Guess where this fella fits in.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I have a feeling that Toon Link would fall down greatly in Tourney Results, IMO out of the 3 characters that were overrated in the release(Wolf, Pikachu and TL) Pikachu is the best, Wolf comes second then TL comes last. I would place Pikachu in the top of mid(or lower high) and then Wolf in the middle of mid, and TL in the bottom of mid. but thats just me

Frown: In the 16%!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think that Wolf, Pika and TL are that far apart. They are pretty even. High mid tier or low high tier

 

[ROOOOY!]

Guess where this fella fits in.

Yoshi discussion?

Spoiler

10 Yoshis

 

[Ace55]

Guess where this fella fits in.

You should put another slice in for epic pictures. And I think the whole of smashboards is 50% yoshi discussion.

 

[SheikSmasher]

I really don't think sheik should be in low tier because she can tilt lock etc and her ko power can be backed up by transforming into yes it might leave you open but by an oppenents hundred percent one or two forward smashes or even a up smash can kill and youve got dins fire to back you up.

 

[ShadowLink84]

[
Guess where this fella fits in.

4% of intelligent posts.
Mainly because of how he mentioned the tournament rankings and considering that everyone has an incredible bias they often tend to ignore them.

Spoiler

Its actually Yoshi Discussion

 

[Neb]

Lets have a Luigi discussion.
>.>

 

[ShadowLink84]

Luigi is awesome this time around.
He has some good combos. His aerials are fast and have massive priority.
His kill moves are pretty quick and powerful.
However he is rather slow on the ground and in the air and his recovery can be a bit difficult to use effectively due to its behavior and it has holes in it that can lead to gimping.
his projectile is also arguably the worst one in the game and has very little usage.

Its his slow movement speed that can hamper him because it means defensive play can hurt him and most of the high tiered characters outrange him which is an issue for Luigi.

Upper mid tier in my opinion.

 

[exidid]

Luigi is a beast in the air. His aerials have great priority and ability to do insane combos. His tilts are very good when landing and finishing an aerial combo onto the ground (don't quote me on that). His recovery isn't too shaby neither; his down B has a lot of height when combined with his jump.

But on the other hand, he is rather slow in the ground. His traction is ridiculously bad; he can't shieldgrab because of that. His projectile is a joke and his touney results are VERY lacking.

Maybe lower mid tier.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Tourney results for Luigi are simply because he is underplayed, not because he has some sort of inherent flaw.
His ground game seems rather lacking though. He just doesn't have the range.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I stopped trying about 2 months ago...

Regardless of whether or not you post a tier list intelligently with proof, and reasoning it will be shot down b/c inevitably Sonic isn't top tier, and there are not enough contributing posters to stimulate discussion.

 

[PKSkyler]

I actually have a tougher time with Luigi than anyone eles really. (weell cept Marth) I even sometimes lsoe a stock to a lvl 9 Luigi. He should pretty high up on the tier list. He can recover well from the side of the stage and his up B is as powerful(if not more powerful) than jigg`s down B and if you miss you dont have such harsh repurcussions.

 

[exidid]

CPU level 9 Luigis are a pain, but they are not relevant in tier discussion >.<

 

[ROOOOY!]

I stopped trying about 2 months ago...

Regardless of whether or not you post a tier list intelligently with proof, and reasoning it will be shot down b/c inevitably Sonic isn't top tier, and there are not enough contributing posters to stimulate discussion.

Agreed. I just look at this thread and think D: sometimes.
Sonic main wise, it's only me and Shadowlink who bother arguing anything, and I only really come in to state facts when someone's got something laughably wrong. Sonic mains don't really care, it's just if no one argued for him he'd be written of as 'worst character evar.'

As for Luigi, what is with the lack of under representation with Luigi in tournaments? After skirting around the boards, I didn't see a lot of high profile Luigi mains. I don't know why someone with a lot of potential is being totally ignored.
Is it just the lack of defensive ground game, or his predictable recovery, or what?
I'm gonna play around with him a bit.

 

[exidid]

I hope that as the game grows, character with lots of potential but low representation in tourneys (Luigi, Mario, Toon Link, Zelda/Sheik) get more attention.

Maybe it's still too soon for these characters to blossom :'D

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Question!

When the official tier list is released, will this be the topic in which it will be discussed, or will a new topic be created?

 

[Snail]

Question!

When the official tier list is released, will this be the topic in which it will be discussed, or will a new topic be created?

A new topic probably, but don't get your hopes up. A tier list won't be released anywhere soon...

 

[exidid]

Melee first official tier list took 11 months. We'll get it next year.

 

[popsofctown]

My guess is that Luigi gets stung by Marth's and Meta Knights, very very badly.

 

[Skyflyer]

Why do some people insist Bowser is mid?

Pros:

Has some of the most powerful smashes in the game.
Heaviest

Cons:

Very slow
Huge target which actually makes him possible to combo for some characters.
Is vulnerable after most of his attacks if shielded or spotdged.
His flamebraeth is predictible and can be avoided.
Bad at jumping
Bad vertical recovery

 

[stoopdklutz]

What are you trying to argue? He's good or bad?

 

[ROOOOY!]

Dedede is heavier than Bowser iirc, but yeah your point still stands.
I actually haven't seen anyone put him in mid.
I'd disagree though and say that his ground game is pretty solid, firebreath is very good in certain situations. A lot of his other attacks come out fast, though the ending lag is a big problem, moves like dtilt and ftilt spring to mind.
He's also got some pretty good defensive options too.
I just don't rate him in the air. His only move that stands out aerially for me is fair, all his others don't shine or aren't that great.
I wouldn't put him in mid tier anyway.

 

[Skyflyer]

What are you trying to argue? He's good or bad?

Who are you talking to?

If you're talking to me then yes. Bowser is in the middle of low tier at best.

 

[MysticKenji]

Why do some people insist Bowser is mid?

Pros:

Has some of the most powerful smashes in the game.
Heaviest
Suicide grab
Great horizontal recovery
Good range
Good edgeguarder
Good OOS options

Cons:

Very slow He's not that slow
Huge target which actually makes him possible to combo for some characters.
Is vulnerable after most of his attacks if shielded or spotdged.
His flamebraeth is predictible and can be avoided. Then he's doing it wrong
Bad at jumping What exactly do you mean by this?
Bad vertical recovery

Fix'd a few things.

Spoiler

inb4sliq

 

[ShadowLink84]

I stopped trying about 2 months ago...

Regardless of whether or not you post a tier list intelligently with proof, and reasoning it will be shot down b/c inevitably Sonic isn't top tier, and there are not enough contributing posters to stimulate discussion.

And we care why?
No one has argued Sonic to be top tier so why even bother mentioning it?
Frankly each time Tenki, Roy or myself speak concerning Sonic its whenever someone gets something laughably wrong.

 

[popsofctown]

Bowser is low tier, but i've seen many many people put him in mid. It's just because he's popular and he turns out some results, and he's hard to play against without practice (in tournament, some people won't even know how to DI the klaw).

In the air, basically he has an incredible fair, and no other aerials that aren't the worst/almost the worst in their class.

His main problem is he has great defense, like those great OOS options, fire breath as a punish, a good defenseive uptilt and ftilt, and the fortress. However, he has to approach, he doesn't have a long range projectile. He gets outcamped by anyone with a projectile, and a ton of people in this game have one.
He does have a command grab, which can be short hopped, which makes him kind of usesful for approaching, but not enough.
Fire breath is a SH approach, but the problem is that if you use it from far away, it's predictable, if you use it close up, it's too risky and the only response it will hit is spotdodge.
The suicide move is part of why he's good. That, the quick fair, his defense game when he's not outcamped, those keep him out of bottom tier.

 

[Nitrix]

Bowser is low tier, but i've seen many many people put him in mid.

People put him in mid because thats where he belongs

 

[-Mars-]

Honestly I think he is mid, like pops said his lack of a projectile keeps him from being really good...but if Bowser is matched up against a non-camper, he becomes a defensive powerhouse.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Fix'd a few things.

Allow me to unfix them then.

Why do some people insist Bowser is mid?

Pros:

Great horizontal recovery (Doesn't really matter too much if his vertical recovery is balls.)
Good range (I would say decent. His tilts are good but most other moves are pretty lacking.)
Good edgeguarder (Why? Because firebreath ***** everybody mirite?)
Good OOS options (Granted.)

Cons:

Very slow He's not that slow (Okay, he doesn't MOVE slowly, but the vast majority of his attacks have horrid amounts of lag.)

Seriously, the day Boozer's strengths outweigh his cons is the day Hillary Clinton gets elected.

 

[NxC]

Well, back from my first tournament, complete with a new biased tier list. My thoughts, not yours. My chars are bolded and underlined. Characters that moved up from my last iteration are in green. Characters that moved down are in red. Each tier's characters are listed in alphabetical order. Tiers are full of ****, but my vote goes in for my tier names to be the new standard.

"Tourney***" tier
Most likely to be called 'broken' by johners.
------------------
Ice Climbers
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
ROB
Snake

"These are good" tier
Less likely to be called 'broken' by johners but still widely considered to be good.
------------------
Falco
Fox
King Dedede
Marth
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Wario

"Better than Ike-tier" tier
formally "These are scary in the right hands" tier
------------------
Bowser
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Lucario
Luigi
Sheik
Toon Link
Wolf

"Ike" tier
He's a man in his own league
------------------
Ike

"Lower than Ike-tier" tier
formally "I'm sure in the right hands these might be average" tier
------------------
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Mario
Peach
Samus
Yoshi
ZS Samus

"I'm sorry" tier
These characters have STRENGTHS, but have weaknesses that far outweigh the strengths.
------------------
Captain Falcon
Link
Ness
Zelda

"Face it" tier
I've never, ever seen a good <character name here> and don't think I ever will.
------------------
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic

 

[M.K]

Well, back from my first tournament, complete with a new biased tier list. My thoughts, not yours. My chars are bolded and underlined. Characters that moved up from my last iteration are in green. Characters that moved down are in red. Each tier's characters are listed in alphabetical order. Tiers are full of ****, but my vote goes in for my tier names to be the new standard.

"Tourney***" tier
Most likely to be called 'broken' by johners.
------------------
Ice Climbers
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
ROB
Snake

"These are good" tier
Less likely to be called 'broken' by johners but still widely considered to be good.
------------------
Falco
Fox
King Dedede
Marth
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Wario

"Better than Ike-tier" tier
formally "These are scary in the right hands" tier
------------------
Bowser
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Lucario
Luigi
Sheik
Toon Link
Wolf

"Ike" tier
He's a man in his own league
------------------
Ike

"Lower than Ike-tier" tier
formally "I'm sure in the right hands these might be average" tier
------------------
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Mario
Peach
Samus
Yoshi
ZS Samus

"I'm sorry" tier
These characters have STRENGTHS, but have weaknesses that far outweigh the strengths.
------------------
Captain Falcon
Link
Ness
Zelda

"Face it" tier
I've never, ever seen a good <character name here> and don't think I ever will.
------------------
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic

Good, but just because Pokemon Trainer characters are faaar and few between, a good one is a MONSTER. ;_;
Lucario moves up a tier, seriously, he is NOT middle tier. He is scary in just about EVERYONE's hands.
Zelda is at least mid tier as well.
All of this IMO BTW LOL

 

[Gojira]

I would say mid high is good for Bowser

 

[PrinceMarthX]

I'm curious, what all does Wario have over Luigi besides being a little harder to KO?

 

[Tenki]

I'm curious, what all does Wario have over Luigi besides being a little harder to KO?

Bite.

Spoiler

10deadhedgehogs

 

[Mmac]

But he gets Infinited by like 8 different people >_>

 

[M.K]

Zelda is mid-mid or upper-mid to me! NOT Low!
I second her, and she is totally amazing. That UpSmash has amazing priority. The right Zeldas know when to sweetspot the sex kick, and she has many KO moves. The recovery is hard to predict, and she has ways to escape certain predicaments. DownSmash is an amazing clear out move and comes out fast!

 

[adumbrodeus]

I stopped trying about 2 months ago...

Regardless of whether or not you post a tier list intelligently with proof, and reasoning it will be shot down b/c inevitably Sonic isn't top tier, and there are not enough contributing posters to stimulate discussion.

Part of the lack of good contributing posters is that they give up...


It's like how people are disgusted with the corruption of politics and don't vote, so nothing ever changes.

 

[Deathcarter]

Well, back from my first tournament, complete with a new biased tier list. My thoughts, not yours. My chars are bolded and underlined. Characters that moved up from my last iteration are in green. Characters that moved down are in red. Each tier's characters are listed in alphabetical order. Tiers are full of ****, but my vote goes in for my tier names to be the new standard.

"Tourney***" tier
Most likely to be called 'broken' by johners.
------------------
Ice Climbers
Meta Knight
Mr. Game and Watch
ROB
Snake

"These are good" tier
Less likely to be called 'broken' by johners but still widely considered to be good.
------------------
Falco
Fox
King Dedede
Marth
Olimar
Pikachu
Pit
Wario

"Better than Ike-tier" tier
formally "These are scary in the right hands" tier
------------------
Bowser
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Kirby
Lucario
Luigi
Sheik
Toon Link
Wolf

"Ike" tier
He's a man in his own league
------------------
Ike

"Lower than Ike-tier" tier
formally "I'm sure in the right hands these might be average" tier
------------------
Ganondorf
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Mario
Peach
Samus
Yoshi
ZS Samus

"I'm sorry" tier
These characters have STRENGTHS, but have weaknesses that far outweigh the strengths.
------------------
Captain Falcon
Link
Ness
Zelda

"Face it" tier
I've never, ever seen a good <character name here> and don't think I ever will.
------------------
Pokemon Trainer
Sonic

This list is just awful. I know you can have an opinion and all, but refrain from posting absolute crap.

ICE CLIMBERS IN TOP TIER!?!?! Fox being seventh out of the cast? Bad approach, light, iffy recovery, projectile with no stun, and non-overwhelming tourney results means you gravely overestimated Fox.

You have Ganondorf and Captain Falcon above people which is the biggest attrosity on this list.

I am not even going to comment on Sonic because his placement reeks of failure.

BTW, tier lists should ALWAYS be in order. I posted some really degrading crap before I realized it was in alphabetical order.

 

[GoForkUrself]

I decided to do a list with all characters and I'll make changes to this list as players make convincing statements onto why someone should be moved. I can't stand that awful list the other guy posts and have to counter it.
Changes:

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake


Higher:
Mr.Game and Watch
DeDeDe
Marth
R.O.B.
Falco


High:

Wario
Pikachu
DK
Lucario
Ice Climbers


Middle:
Diddy
Kirby
Pit
Zero suit Samus
Olimar
Wolf
Peach
Toon Link
Bowser
Zelda/Sheik
Lucas
Fox
Zelda


Low:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Mario
Ness
Yoshi
Ike
Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Sheik


Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

I did this list without counting, and it turned out pretty well. 12 above middle, and 11 below middle. I feel it's pretty balanced, but I may have screwed up locations since I don't know about all of their metagames(like I've never seen a Kirby at a tournament). Also as I said before, I do look at tournament rankings, but this is mostly based on opinion. We all know Luigi is the least used tournament character, so I don't want people saying he is bottom tier when we all know he isn't. He might be low tier, but I don't know.
Since I have not seen all these characters in tournaments, I will need your help to get this list going. I'd like this list to be good enough to be a solid guideline until we get an official list.