Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Mmac]

Olimar forums rate Yoshi as a 60/40 matchup in Yoshi's favour. The reason for this is unknown to me (I don't have any trouble with Yoshi's, at all) but if both forums say Yoshi > Olimar, then it must be true :/

Yoshi's Bair is a pretty big factor, as they out Prioritize his Air attacks, and Yoshi's Shorthop is perfect because it goes straight into Olimars Blindspot where his Smashes/Grabs can't hit. Also Egglay separates his Pikmin from him, and can take them all out with one shot

Yoshi doesn't have an advantage on MK. No character does, except perhaps Snake, so don't be ridiculous.

He has a thing, it's called Pivot Grabbing. It beats every single approach MetaKnight has. Not to mention that it usually ends up with a 2 Release Chaingrab to Usmash combo for +30% every grab

 

[Kiwikomix]

On Yoshi vs. Oli:

Yoshi outcamps Oli, since one egg will kill a Pikmin. If Yoshi decides to approach, his bair (the usual approach aerial) outprioritizes all Pikmin attacks. If Oli starts spamming Pikmin, Yoshi egg rolls (being careful to stay out of grab range) and every Pikmin is dead. Yoshi can egg lay Olimar and start killing the Pikmin while he escapes. Basically it's just a shutdown match in most respects, although Olimar overall is a capable enough character to avoid getting *****.

On Yoshi vs. Wario:

There's an infinite. That alone has to change it to Yoshi's advantage, although it's not a one-sided matchup since Wario can just avoid going in from a grabbable trajectory.

@ Mmac: I still think it's slightly in MK's favor. We'll have a heyday on the matchup thread later.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Because Metaknight's going to walk into a grab of course :')
He could just bait it out. Or approach from an angle outside the grab radius.
And two chaingrabs doesn't mean he's neutral/advantageous with somebody.

 

[Mmac]

Because Metaknight's going to walk into a grab of course :')
He could just bait it out. Or approach from an angle outside the grab radius.
And two chaingrabs doesn't mean he's neutral/advantageous with somebody.

If he spotdodges it, then Yoshi has enough time to spotdodge his counter attack, and has just enough time (depending on the move) to be able to counter.

The beautiful thing is that his Usmash beats every high approach he has too.

Not to mention if he's grabbed 5 times, he's basically dead.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm it would be nice if people used Yoshi in tournaments more often.

I would looooove to see Yoshi winning a tournament with MK taking up most of top 8.


^_^

 

[l0n3r]

C an someone tell me where Toon Link places? I've heard TL is mid, high, and mid-high...

 

[Frown]

C an someone tell me where Toon Link places? I've heard TL is mid, high, and mid-high...

Mid.

Now, let's continue the endless Yoshi discussion.

 

[adumbrodeus]

If he spotdodges it, then Yoshi has enough time to spotdodge his counter attack, and has just enough time (depending on the move) to be able to counter.

The beautiful thing is that his Usmash beats every high approach he has too.

Not to mention if he's grabbed 5 times, he's basically dead.

Fun fact, MK can counter a spotdodge counter to a d-smash... with another d-smash.

That and MK has enough moves that linger, are repeatable (to counter spotdodge), or simply are too fast that your counter-spotdodge isn't an issue.

 

[Mmac]

I don't think he has enough time to do another Dsmash. I know he has little lag, But Yoshi's Tilts/Dsmash comes out in an instant


Wasn't I suppose to prevent this sort of thing from happening?

Edit: And I said "Depending on the move". Dsmash'ing from MetaKnight is probably the most common attack from out of his Spotdodge

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think he has enough time to do another Dsmash. I know he has little lag, But Yoshi's Tilts/Dsmash comes out in an instant


Wasn't I suppose to prevent this sort of thing from happening?

Actually no, MK's d-smash is incredibly fast as far as frames go and ends quickly enough that he can counter most spotdodges of it by using it again.

I'm pretty sure Yoshi is included in that group.

 

[brg]

so, i havent visited the boards lately but is it now agreed that snake is completely and ridiculously overpowered and unbalanced?

 

[ROOOOY!]

More Meta than Snake actually ^^
At least Snake has exploitable weaknesses >.>

 

[BrawlerHarrison]

Wow 892 pages? Seems like half of it is Yoshi o.O

Can I kill it for one sec?

...Marth's up-b can dodge counters :D

 

[brg]

More Meta than Snake actually ^^
At least Snake has exploitable weaknesses >.>

that are what? laggy aerials?

 

[Mmac]

We're only talking about..... Him because someone said the Y Word.

And you just said it again so now you prolonged it for another week. Thank you >_>

that are what? laggy aerials?

He's big, He's not that great in the air. Recovery is somewhat predictable and easy to intercept but is still good. His Projectiles are easy to dodge (I handle Grenadiers quite well)....

 

[adumbrodeus]

that are what? laggy aerials?

Among other things, his projectile spam is also rather slow, his recovery can be harrassed, in general he lags reasonably so. Oh, he's also large.

MK's only weakness is he dies early, and his defense and offense are just too good for that to matter.

 

[Mmac]

You know what, lets talk about someone who is pretty unpopular, who isn't..... that Dinosaur/Dragon thing....

Uh....

Um.......

How about Link? Nobody talks about him, and he has some things going for him......

 

[nick_phizz]

Link was cool back in melee, but they ****ed him over.

 

[Frown]

Link was cool back in melee, but they ****ed him over.

LINK: Below mid tier since 1999!

 

[nick_phizz]

And your main is yoshi right?

 

[Mmac]

Oh boy, I'm not liking where this is heading.....

 

[nick_phizz]

Why? I was gonna say Yoshi actually is good but underestimated.

 

[Mmac]

Why? I was gonna say Yoshi actually is good but underestimated.

Oh.....

Yay!

 

[Snail]

Yoshi's Bair is a pretty big factor, as they out Prioritize his Air attacks, and Yoshi's Shorthop is perfect because it goes straight into Olimars Blindspot where his Smashes/Grabs can't hit. Also Egglay separates his Pikmin from him, and can take them all out with one shot

Err, yeah, but as far as I know, Bair can be shieldgrabbed pretty much like any other move. It worked on the only serious Yoshi I've ever played :/ If I'm wrong, couldn't you just roll through the bair and fsmash? Then again, I've only played one decent Yoshi in my life, so don't slap me if I'm wrong here.

He has a thing, it's called Pivot Grabbing. It beats every single approach MetaKnight has. Not to mention that it usually ends up with a 2 Release Chaingrab to Usmash combo for +30% every grab

Olimar has a better Pivot Grab than Yoshi and our boards rate it 55/45 in MK's favour. Having a ranged pivot grab doesn't give you an instant advantage, especially since MK ***** Yoshi in every other aspect... >_>

On Yoshi vs. Oli:

Yoshi outcamps Oli, since one egg will kill a Pikmin. If Yoshi decides to approach, his bair (the usual approach aerial) outprioritizes all Pikmin attacks. If Oli starts spamming Pikmin, Yoshi egg rolls (being careful to stay out of grab range) and every Pikmin is dead. Yoshi can egg lay Olimar and start killing the Pikmin while he escapes. Basically it's just a shutdown match in most respects, although Olimar overall is a capable enough character to avoid getting *****.

You can't kill Pikmin as long as they're "synched" with Olimar. Pikmin get thrown a lot faster than eggs, do more damage and are harder to avoid. I don't think Yoshi outcamps Olimar... Egg roll and Olimar will have plucked new Pikmin by the time you're able to get out of it and approach :/

The egg lay trick still stands, though. Probably useful. Aside from that, Yoshi has weight, a good recovery and decent combo's. I don't see how Yoshi has an advantage here, but perhaps that's just because I haven't played enough Yoshi's.

 

[Big Red]

Shield grabbing a bair from yoshi isn't that easy, with its large vertical hitbox it shield pokes a lot.

Against Meta, IDK about your pivot grab but our's goes through the whorenado and drill rush. So whenever he uses those, we get free cgs to usmash. So yeah... (I still think meta has the advantage, neutral at beast)

For Link, I don't know, I wish he didn't have galeboomerang...

Other than that all of those zair->DACUS combo seem pretty sweet.

He's heavy so he lives a while but once he's off the stage he's gone. They should have added some extra range on his tether, that've been nice.

 

[ROOOOY!]

LMAO for the conversation changing to Yoshi AGAIN after ONE Link post :')
His ground game has range and is pretty powerful with plenty of priority, and he can projectile spam better than you'd think.
One of his only flaws is that he sucks big hairy balls offstage, unfortunately it's quite a big one.

 

[Snail]

Shield grabbing a bair from yoshi isn't that easy, with its large vertical hitbox it shield pokes a lot.

For Link, I don't know, I wish he didn't have galeboomerang...

Other than that all of those zair->DACUS combo seem pretty sweet.

He's heavy so he lives a while but once he's off the stage he's gone. They should have added some extra range on his tether, that've been nice.

Meh, I guess the Yoshi I played was just doing it wrong then. Either way, you could still roll back -> Fsmash.

Ugh, I forgot this isn't a matchup discussion thread lmao. >< So I'll go with you guys and discuss Link.

Sakurai hates Link. His recovery sucks more than Olimar's, and he has nothing over Tink except slightly easier killing and being heavier... And a DAC. Despite all his "ATs", Link doesn't make a very solid character. He's just too slow and his recovery really hurts him. I do think that Link players can overcome his weaknesses to a certain extent though. I'd put him somewhere in Low Tier along with Yoshi, since even though both characters look sucky on paper, they're not all that bad when someone good plays them. Unlike Captain Falcon or something who is pathetic no matter what. ;_;

 

[Mmac]

Olimar has a better Pivot Grab than Yoshi and our boards rate it 55/45 in MK's favour. Having a ranged pivot grab doesn't give you an instant advantage, especially since MK ***** Yoshi in every other aspect... >_>

But you can't chaingrab him, or have a free Usmash on release. Plus it's not true. Yoshi's air game matches him pretty well, and his Ground to Air game is superior.

Now lets go back to Link. One thing that he has is that he's got pretty good range. If a Link main knows how to use that range, then he can be actually rather dangerous. I used to own Links all the time, but then I found one, and he completely pwned me ;_ ;

Edit: Rolling back doesn't work, Bair has no landing lag, so Yoshi can follow it with a Tilt as soon as the frames of his Roll is over.

 

[Tenki]

Hmm it would be nice if people used Yoshi in tournaments more often.

I would looooove to see Yoshi winning a tournament with MK taking up most of top 8.


^_^

So the current Tourney food chain is sort of like...

Decent/good Metaknight takes out people who main characters that MIGHT have a chance against Snake.
Good/skilled Snake player meets the less-skilled Metaknight at the grand finals and takes him out to win tourney.

In otherwords, we need to infiltrate the food chain with dinosaurs like Yoshi to take out Metaknights and pave the way for every other character to join in.

 

[swordgard]

Wait, yoshis air game is far from being equivalent to MKs ...

That for one thing is obvious, his fair will actually outrange and out priorize most of you attacks. A good meta wont let you grab him easely considering he has far less lag than yoshi or any char on most of his attacks. I think you overestimate yoshi alot. As for link, he probably has untapped potential.

 

[MysticKenji]

he has nothing over Tink except slightly easier killing and being heavier... And a DAC.

and better range.

 

[Mmac]

Wait, yoshis air game is far from being equivalent to MKs ...

That for one thing is obvious, his fair will actually outrange and out priorize most of you attacks. A good meta wont let you grab him easely considering he has far less lag than yoshi or any char on most of his attacks. I think you overestimate yoshi alot. As for link, he probably has untapped potential.

Fair/Bair beats Yoshi's Horizontal attacks, but Yoshi's does better vertical wise. Dair beats his Uair, and his Uair beats his Dair.

And have you ever seen how lagless his Pivot Grab is?

 

[nick_phizz]

The problem is that all the good players keep using only the characters streoetyped as the best (tier list) instead of using 'worst' fighters and learning strategies to show how evened out the game really is.

 

[Onxy]

Fair/Bair beats Yoshi's Horizontal attacks, but Yoshi's does better vertical wise. Dair beats his Uair, and his Uair beats his Dair.

And have you ever seen how lagless his Pivot Grab is?

Ivy can out-range MK's Fair with Ivy's Bair, Ivy can beat MK's Uair/Dair with Ivy's, but Ivy is far from being good against MK.

 

[Grunt]

The problem is that all the good players keep using only the characters streoetyped as the best (tier list) instead of using 'worst' fighters and learning strategies to show how evened out the game really is.

there's a reason people whored these "Good" characters.BECAUSE they're good, not because we all tier *****. ROB was ridiculously unpopular, but once people saw how good he was, they played him. you have to realize people picked good characters and won with them before anyone said X character is good and Y character is bad.

 

[Roager]

The problem is that all the good players keep using only the characters streoetyped as the best (tier list) instead of using 'worst' fighters and learning strategies to show how evened out the game really is.

I see very few possible strategies that will make Sonic seem "evened out". Ike: maybe. Falcon: I can hope. But Sonic: not likely.

 

[Onxy]

there's a reason people whored these "Good" characters.BECAUSE they're good, not because we all tier *****. ROB was ridiculously unpopular, but once people saw how good he was, they played him. you have to realize people picked good characters and won with them before anyone said X character is good and Y character is bad.

Out of the low tier characters, IMO, PT and Yoshi have the most potential. Too bad that everyone hates 'em

 

[ShadowLink84]

ABout Link.

Link is actually well balanced. Unfortunately that means he's bad.

Up close Link is severely limited. He can only jab, Utilt, Dsmash and ^B. Those are his fastest moves and unfortunately the latter two leave him open the most.

However beyond close range is where Link excels. HIs Zair is an excellent spacing tool and all three of his projectiles have great versatility especially the bomb. With bomb smashing, arrow canceling, as well as the interesting behavior of his boomerang, Link can be a handful especially when it comes to approaching.

UNfortunately he's a poking type of character he has virtually no strings and has very few combos only one of which is actually viable to higher percents.
He also has difficulty in approaching and a good amount of characters can outspam him.
HIs DAC is easily the 2nd best in the game. Its goes a good distance and the attack stays out long enough so that it is difficult to punish him if you haven't already predicted he will do it.

His KO moves are all strong, have very good priority but they often have a good amount of cooldown time as well.
He can kill well enough but the issue is that because he cannot combo very well he has little means of racking up damage otehr than poking the opponent.


@roager: He's better than people credit him for, better than Ike and waaaay better than Falcon.

 

[Snail]

Fair/Bair beats Yoshi's Horizontal attacks, but Yoshi's does better vertical wise. Dair beats his Uair, and his Uair beats his Dair.

And have you ever seen how lagless his Pivot Grab is?

Yoshi's Uair beats MK's Dair, Nair and Tornado?

You can't grab MK if his Tornado is in the air, so he can at least approach you that way. MK is also about twice as fast as Yoshi, has better priority (except perhaps vertical aerials) gimping ability, recovery, combo potential... Pretty much everything except his grabs. I simply can't imagine it's in Yoshi's favour because of some 30% grab combo :/

I'll shut up about it now, though.

 

[Roager]

there's a reason people whored these "Good" characters.BECAUSE they're good, not because we all tier *****. ROB was ridiculously unpopular, but once people saw how good he was, they played him. you have to realize people picked good characters and won with them before anyone said X character is good and Y character is bad.

The problem is that people found the characters that are EASIEST to be good with (MK) and then a few people tried oout some others (Snake, ROB). The few others tried got popular, and it's more or less stopped there. Most other characters aren't getting much attention. Lucario and Samus, for instance. Regardless of your own opinions on them, they're not getting the same attention as Snake. Luigi's REALLY neglected, judging by tournament results. Things like that. Every character has potential, but few people are actually trying to find any of it, outside the chars that are currently judged as "good".