Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[adumbrodeus]

Well hand over that friend code and you'll see who's top tier.

Even if you are better then me, it doesn't prove anything, individuals do not make match-ups even or advantageous.




Wifi isn't a good indicator at all, latency and lag changes the game to significantly to be accurate.


You wanna gauge my skill, drop by some tri-state area tournaments (NY, NJ, CT), you MIGHT run into me.

 

[popsofctown]

when people like adumbrodeus have to spend about half or third a page explaining why Ganondorf is bottom tier, i feel like there needs to be some sort of forum between totally open and SBR...

 

[PKNintendo]

I think Silverflash's tier list is the best one IMO.

Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake
Mr. Game and Watch

Very High Tier:
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
King Dedede
Wario
Olimar
Lucario
Donkey Kong

High Tier:
Wolf
Pit
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Toon Link
Kirby
Diddy Kong
Zelda

Mid Tier:
Fox
Lucas
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi

Low Tier:
lke
Peach
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Mario
Bowser
Link

Bottom Tier:
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Samus
Ganondorf
Yoshi
Captain Falcon

 

[Mmac]

I said it once before, and I say it again, Yoshi should be nowhere near Bottom Tier, let alone 2nd Worst.

His Matchup's are too even to be Bottom Tier. Hell, I don't even think he's Low Tier anymore.

Besides, I hate silverflash

 

[Morrigan]

That list sucks

 

[ROOOOY!]

SilverFlashes list...
Ike should be moved down to be above Mario.
Yoshi should be below Bowser, pushing Link into bottom.
Other than that, not that bad.

A general consensus seems to have been reached as to who's in Top/High anyway, and roughly where they'll be.

Edit : The more I look the less I like >_< I'm seeing some cringe-worthy placements. Sheik shouldn't be that low. She wasn't nerfed like Falcon was.

 

[megamanexev3]

Snake should always be above Metaknight in any tier list.

 

[Mmac]

We pretty much know who is the Sacred 7 (MetaKnight, Snake, Game & Watch, ROB, Marth, Dedede, Falco), so we should focus on the other Tier's now. A Tier List is about everyone, and we should put in more effort to place the other characters correctly.

 

[megamanexev3]

Good point, good point. I see you're from BC, I'll converse with you more about that on your profile if you don't mind.

I'm kind of iffy on Falcon being bottom tier, I haven't played many Falcon players, but is he really that bad?

Pikachu should be moved above the Ice Climbers. His recovery is on par with them, but he fares better against some of the top tier characters and has an easy chaingrab on them. The Ice Climbers can chaingrab the Sacred 7, but with MK and Snake it is far too easy to kill off Nana early in the match, even easier with Falco.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Silverflash/NSS's list was great about a month ago. It hasn't been updated since. Let it go, unless they decide to make another run for it.

 

[Grunt]

Bull****.
I got 2 ppl who say otherwise...

unless it's Sliq and Dutchman, they're wrong.

 

[Mmac]

I'm kind of iffy on Falcon being bottom tier, I haven't played many Falcon players, but is he really that bad?

Falcon doesn't have very good matchups. His only advantage is against Squirtle, and has a few Neutrals, but the rest are all disadvantaged or plain impossible

 

[PKNintendo]

That list sucks

You need more reasoning.

 

[SlashBrawler]

This topic is full of noobs.

 

[Frown]

This topic is full of noobs.

You need more reasoning.

 

[popsofctown]

What if i disagree with the Sacred Seven? I think Olimar should be just above ROB, and that Diddy should be just above Dedede.

Olimar's matchup spread is really really good. He's a counterpick to Snake, Snakes will concede it. Some say he's a counter to G&W, some says he's not, either way, he plays a tough game against the second and third best characters in the game. He does more or less neutral against the rest of the characters in high. Except he counters Dedede very very well.

He's also very similar to G&W in that when he plays mid and low tiers, he wins by landslides. Olimar and Game & Watch both have many matchups where the advantage is so huge that they don't even have to think.

One reason why is that a HUGE proportion of the characters in this game like to hit shields with retreating aerials. Olimar can grab tons of those (it's usually a bair). Off the top of my head, i think he grabs Wolf's, G&W's, DK's, Sheik's, probably any of luigi's, Kirby's, Dedede's, CF's knee.. it's probably faster to name who can manage to go in the air, hit his shield, land, and not get grabbed. Probably just Wario, Jiggs, Yoshi, Ness maybe, and a few i can't think of. Anyway, many of these characters have to change strategies completely, while fending off the best spam in the game (arguably in competition with Tink's), and trying to get in and hit one of the best defensive characters in the game.

Olimar's most popularly called-upon weakness is eroding quickly, that is, bad recovery. Olimar has never had bad horizontal recovery, because he's floaty, his problem was getting the vertical he needed. I think Olimar's recovery problems were exaggerated early in the game, when the usual response to an fsmash is DI in the opposite horizontal direction from the move (left for a right fsmash). I would love if that was still the most popular response, but now everyone DIs upwards. He pretty much uses the force of the hit to get him high enough in the air that his vertical recovery issue doesn't kick in.

Even if he does get stuck needing to use his tether recovery, half the time he has a purple (if it's not next in the lineup, he can empty bair or throw to get to it). Purple's knock off edgehoggers. If you get off the ledge when you see it coming, he'll grab the edge.

And if he doesn't have a purple, he'll have a white. You'll kill him allright, but you have to stay on that ledge for a pretty long time to hog him. He'll throw a white on your back, usually with a red or yellow to keep it company, and you have to take double digit damage in exchange for the edgehog.

His longevity is also improved by more advanced usages of the whistle. If he gets to 140% or so, he just starts whistling your fsmashes and other hits. It gives instant super armor. It doesn't make him invincible, but he basically gets enhanced spotdodging/shielding/airdodging abilities when he's at such a high percent he knows you can kill him with anything.

As you should all know already too, he has a strong air game, forced downthrow combos, a fast uptilt that outprioritizes Wolf's fsmash and most any other non-disjoint move. And he has one of those fast, strong, beast downsmashes.

Diddy: I dunno i just think he's a good character. I can't really back this one up so i'll let it go.

 

[Frown]

What if i disagree with the Sacred Seven? I think Olimar should be just above ROB, and that Diddy should be just above Dedede..

Diddy doesn't have a nearly ungimpable recovery and the easiest chaingrab in the game.

Olimar could go higher once people learn new techniques and blah blah blah I'm too tired to debate, sorry.

 

[DanGR]

Revised list.

I was bored again, so I'm updating my list. Tourney results aren't taken into account as much as I would if MK were banned. >_>

Spaces represent gaps between "sections" in the tiers. I've added "no particuler order" notices as well. They mean there's no particular order among the characters that are listed before the next set of characters, separated by spaces. I use spaces instead of totally new tiers, b/c tier differences represent different levels of gameplay that the character is at. Example-DK and Kirby. I think they're clearly better than Wario, IC, pikachu, etc. but they aren't that much better.

God:
Meta Knight

High:
Snake
Mr. Game & Watch

[no particular order]
Falco
Marth

[no particular order]
Captain Olimar
R.O.B

Diddy Kong
King Dedede

Mid:
Donkey Kong
Kirby

[no particular order]
Wario
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Sheik/Zelda
Toon Link
Wolf
Kirby
Pit
Lucario
Peach

[no particular order]
Mario
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi

[no particular order]
Ness
Fox
Lucas
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff

Low:
Pokemon Trainer
Samus

[no particular order]
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Bowser
Ike
Link

______________Explanations_______________
Meta Knight- MK is better than every character. He has no disadvantageous matchups. Only advantages and neutrals. He has everything you want in a character and more.

Snake- MK passed him in tourney rankings, and it's become clear that he isn't the best. (finally people can now understand me a month ago. >_>) He has weaknesses. He has disadvantageous matchups! Yay!

Captain Olimar- This is debatable, but he has few bad matchups, an advantage over Snake, some say he goes even with MK, and he goes even with Falco and GaW. He's a hard counter against DDD as well. Pops hit the spot.

Diddy Kong- Umm, if you disagree, then you haven't been paying attention to his sky rocketing rankings and metagame for the past few weeks. >_>

Donkey Kong- imo, he's better than my mid tier characters and worser than the high tier characters.
Kirby-//

Wario- his infinites and grab releases hurt him.

Ness- edge-finites and grab releases move him down from mid tier.

Yoshi-not bottom, but not mid.
Sonic-//

Mario- boss is high tier, not mario.

Jigglypuff-she's not total crap. She's just so drastically unpopular that she doesn't place well.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Dedede doesn't have a nearly ungimpable recovery either.
The only ones who can boast that are ROB and maybe Sonic.

 

[adumbrodeus]

unless it's Sliq and Dutchman, they're wrong.

They'd still be wrong.




Not like they'd never say that anyway.

Dutchman says ganondorf is bottom-tier, Sliq is a little less explicit, but the same general idea, he's bad.

 

[nick_phizz]

They'd still be wrong.




Not like they'd never say that anyway.

Dutchman says ganondorf is bottom-tier, Sliq is a little less explicit, but the same general idea, he's bad.

Still waiting for a fight. Put me in a tournament and I'll change those ranks. Too bad there's nobody here that ain't scared to fight online...

 

[Zero493]

Still waiting for a fight. Put me in a tournament and I'll change those ranks. Too bad there's nobody here that ain't scared to fight online...

Lol, good luck beating a MK with him. Ganon is bottom tier deal with it.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Still waiting for a fight. Put me in a tournament and I'll change those ranks. Too bad there's nobody here that ain't scared to fight online...

Lol, good luck beating a MK with him. Ganon is mottom tier deal with it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Still waiting for a fight. Put me in a tournament and I'll change those ranks. Too bad there's nobody here that ain't scared to fight online...

Learn to read..

Individual skill means nothing, only character attributes.


Wifi is not an accurate gauge of individual skill lag and latency screws it up, only in-person matches.

I don't think anyone is annoyed here, just amused at his stupidity and/or constant attempts to irritate us.

Really, nobody cares.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Trolls strive on people responding to them, as long as they have your attention they are successful.

Just ignore him.

Oh and one more thing.

The cookies, you will give them to me...

 

[Gindler]

So I was just thinking...G&W is way more "broken" than MK. All of G&W's smashes are excellent killers, insanely good recovery, the turtle (pretty much best Bair, defensive move in the game), a projectile killer (the bucket), and a ridiculous desperate I need to win with this one attack move (the 9 Hammer)

 

[Mmac]

Except G&W doesn't have lagless attacks, and his Bucket doesn't stop all projectiles. he's good, but his moves can still get around with if you play smart or have long range.

Also, Judgement is a terrible attack, even if it does have a 9.87% chance of a OHKO

 

[Deathcarter]

list

DanGR wins for putting Ike and Link in the last two spots ^_^.

Nick_phizz is the epitome of incompetence primarily for the fact that his
"humor-inducing" facade is inhibiting the potential for intellectually stimulating conversation by posting elementary remarks. Nick_phizz, I, an advocate of intelligence, implore you to vacate this sanctuary of intelligent conversation so that we may resume our discussion of tiers.


The person to find the irony of my post gets an internet cookie ^_^.

 

[Gindler]

Except G&W doesn't have lagless attacks, and his Bucket doesn't stop all projectiles. he's good, but his moves can still get around with if you play smart or have long range.

Also, Judgement is a terrible attack, even if it does have a 9.87% chance of a OHKO

True, they're only nearly lagless. While MK's only "laggy" attack might be his dimensional cape.

 

[popsofctown]

G&W's kill moves, while some of the best in the game, are actually a tad slower than MK's downsmash and MK's up special. Yes, they are more powerful, but MK can rack more relentless than MK can.

MK is better on the ground than G&W. Where G&W has one smack with the lid, MK's ftilt is equally instantaneous, and it combos for a total of three hits.

Really, another huge reason that G&W doesn't have as much win power as MK is that he doesn't have multiple jumps. They are invaluable in juggling. While G&W's upair gets a lot of press, it doesn't actually force your opponent into anything besides maybe grabbing the ledge.



But anyway, G&W is a very good character, and i would seriously entertain G&W > Snake

 

[ShadowLink84]

MK is NOT better on the ground than GW.

Why?

G&W has a plethora of moves, Jabs, Dtilt, Utilt, Usmash, Dsmash as well as the bucket, frying pan.
MK's best ground moves are his Dtilt, Ftilt, Dsmash, Usmash.


If it came down to a ground battle MK would get ***** by G&W. Its MK's aerial game that really stands out and how it combines so very well with his ground moves that he is so incredibly good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

G&W's smashes are slow. Not reliable moves to fall back on. Only d-tilt really is.

Mk's tilts >>>>> G&W's. In range and speed and as set-ups.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Trolls strive on people responding to them, as long as they have your attention they are successful.

Just ignore him.

Oh and one more thing.

The cookies, you will give them to me...

If he wants a response, I really don't care, he can have it.


If he wants anger or annoyance, he's out of luck.


And no, I won't let you ruin your diet!

 

[ShadowLink84]

G&W's smashes are slow. Not reliable moves to fall back on. Only d-tilt really is.

Mk's tilts >>>>> G&W's. In range and speed and as set-ups.

Dsmash I believe is 5 frames slower than MK's and is one of the strongest ones being capable of killing much earlier than MK so it is a good move to use.
Fsmash is somewhat slow but somewhat makes up for this with the lingering hitbox it has.
Usmash I got nothing.

Mk's Utilt<G&W IMO. Before you rip my head off the reason for this is while it isn't as fast, the amount of area it covers is greater.

It may be from experience but i tend to have more issues with MK's airgame as opposed to his groundgame, meanwhile when I face G&W, his groundgame tends to give me more issues than MK.

 

[Neb]

G&W's smashes are slow. Not reliable moves to fall back on. Only d-tilt really is.

Nah, G&W's smashes are a tad slow in comparison to MK's. Compare them to any other handful of characters and you have a different subject. Not only that, but they all end with IASA frames, which means you can fall back on them, they chain just as easy as Olimar's, are longer lasting, and have greater KO potential.

The thing is, G&W's smash-set aren't suppose to be used as set-ups like MK's, they're damage builders, combo finishers, and KO attacks.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Nah, G&W's smashes are a tad slow in comparison to MK's. Compare them to any other handful of characters and you have a different subject. Not only that, but they all end with IASA frames, which means you can fall back on them, they chain just as easy as Olimar's, are longer lasting, and have greater KO potential.

The thing is, G&W's smash-set aren't suppose to be used as set-ups like MK's, they're damage builders, combo finishers, and KO attacks.

I think it's supposed to make them safer.

When do the IASA frames start for his smashes btw?

 

[popsofctown]

5 frames is a whole lot of frames. A lot can happen in 5 frames. Extremely evasive characters can block that so much more often than MK's downsmash.
In practical play, G&W gets a lot of low% kills with his downsmash because it's a "sleeper" move, people aren't used to the huge range.

I think MK's uptilt reaches up higher than G&W's... but i'm not going to argue that MK's is better. The two serve different purposes, and really MK's uptilt gets press because he doesn't have as many kill moves as he would like.

Like Emblem Lord says, only G&W's lid is really really fast on the ground. I can't deny the move is wicked awesome, but it decays after a while. Meta Knight's ground moves combo more and rack faster. MK's downtilt might not have the lid's range, but it has a greater payoff and is equally fast.

MK can already be doing another move because he's done with the smash, he doesn't need IASA frames.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure MK's d-tilt beats out G&W's d-tilt in range and speed.

 

[Grunt]

Pretty sure MK's everything beats out G&W's everything in range and speed.

Fixed 10fixes

 

[popsofctown]

emblem lord's a bit smarter than me so I'll believe that.