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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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FishkeeperTimmay!

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Priority...>.> It's a mix of Range, speed, and how much collision 2 hitboxes are exposed during the attack.
since pikmin have speed and range and collision 1 hitboxes, they have "priority".
I think a brief recap of how attacks work is needed.

They will "clank" only if the the two hitboxes meet at the exact same point, at the exact same time and no hurtbox is threatened. You "trade hits" when attacks hit the same place at the same time, and both hurtboxes are threatened. If two attacks meet and one hurtbox is threatened, whilst the other is not, the attack that doesn't have a threatened hurtbox wins. This is why Disjointed characters have such high priority.

Olimar's Pikmin are unique because they are the only projectiles that have a hurtbox and a hitbox. All other projectiles have no hurtbox. So, to outprioritize a Pikmin, you can't use the same approach as a projectile to clank. You have to hit the Pikmin before it hits you, which is extremely easy if you have disjointed hitboxes, but it is supremely hard if you do not.

Actually, they have no priority because if anything hits them, they lose the clash. They even lose to poor jabs like Zamus'. The issue is hitting them. Most characters don't have the speed to hit a pikmin before it hits your hurtbox, so it seems they have huge priority. Only characters with large disjointed hitboxes are generally capable of hitting pikmin before they can collide with your hurtboxes.
 

popsofctown

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Unfortunately DK isn't a horrible character by any stretch of the imagination, which is really just the first flaw in your argument. G&W has insanely powerful smashes even if they're hard to land, and he's pretty high up there. D3 is one of the heaviest characters in the game and he does incredibly well because of his range (including grab and a CG on like 2/3s of the cast)--which you totally disregarded in your analysis, and which plays at least a big a part in Snake's tournament placement as his power. Samus has lagless aerials, Z-air, many options, and tons of ways to attack people, and she's pretty terrible, because she's not powerful enough to actually kill. Pit can get tons of virtually free hits on people and he isn't doing nearly as well at tournies as he used to, for a variety of reasons. I really don't think putting so much emphasis on payoff / ability to hit people alone is going to get you anywhere.
If you look at the post carefully, i was trying to avoid absolutes. My point was not that Dedede is a bad character, or even the Dedede's Fsmash is bad. My points was that over time, at different levels of ability, the payoff will remain the same.
However, over time, it will get avoided more and more because it is slow/has bad usability.

Therefore, over time, that move will become less good. Less, not totally worthless, less.

There are many other attributes besides payoff and usability. I didn't mean to ignore them, i was focusing on one attribute of characters that i believe changes over time.

If you recognize the narrower claims I'm making, the fact that DK is a (really) great character is not a refutation. For one, he has moves with very good usability, his ftilt is fast and ranged (usability as i'm using the word includes range), his moves has super armor which helps them land, and his bair is very fast and ranged.

I don't even claim that the DK's Fsmash will eventually fall behind Sonic. DK has more payoff than Sonic. That payoff will become less important, and could possibly close the gap between Sonic and DK, but will probably never lead to Sonic being a superior character. (also, you could make a strong argument that DK can land hits more consistently, he has great usability. I didn't even get to mentioning the great range on his grabs).

Your mention of G&W's smashes goes back to a concession that i make: the payoff on G&W's smashes will become less important as players get better, but players will never get so good that G&W's smashes are no longer making him a good character. Maybe he could shift behind a character that is already good, like Falco, but his payoff will always remain important.
 

Gindler

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They have the same priority I guess (ground attacks are known to clank alot, heck yoshi's jab clanks with snake Utilt). But what makes olimar wierd is the aerial factor since in melee aerials NEVER clanked it depeneded on priority and who put it out when to see who'd win but I never knew Olimars aerials could actually clank, it's good to know.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Then again, Gindler, it's not the priority of Snake's attacks that are ridiculous. It's the fact that they're disjointed, have insane killing power, and range.

>_____>

Blah, blah, blah. I'm moving back down to Florida, btw. In the Tampa area. If we Clearwater Smashers get off of our ***** and host a tourney, you better drive four hours to get to it.

Smooth Criminal
 

adumbrodeus

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Fixed that for you. Seriously, put Ganondorf in a matchup argument against anybody and everyone will instantly put Ganon in the disadvantage. Even in a Ganondorf vs. Ganondorf matchup, both would have the disadvantage!
Of course Ganondorf is at a disadvantage against Ganondorf, it's a 100-0 match-up, no matter what you do, Ganondorf will win.

lol


Really?
I thought Sonic had less priority than olimar.
Everything outprioritizes the pikmin, granted, his physical attacks don't quite suffer from that weakness.

His advantage is his insane disjointed hitboxes, insane speed, and raw power.
 

Tenki

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R
The only place he doesn't have a C ranking in is Atlantic South Rankings.
So the region argument does not work.
lol @ region.

I haven't heard of a tourney around my area (GA) in months. And it was a small play&trade tourney that I found about because a coworker came in one day saying he was coming back from a smash tournament (and I facepalmed because I didn't know about it ;__; )

I don't think Smash is very popular around here.
 

bigman40

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lol @ region.

I haven't heard of a tourney around my area (GA) in months. And it was a small play&trade tourney that I found about because a coworker came in one day saying he was coming back from a smash tournament (and I facepalmed because I didn't know about it ;__; )

I don't think Smash is very popular around here.
No, melee is popular here. Brawl is rare here cause the TOs that did Melee don't really do brawl tourneys.

I plan to start my own brawl tourney next summer (kinda tight this college year), I'll have a thread about it if my friends are willing to help me get it going.
 

MysticKenji

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lol @ region.

I haven't heard of a tourney around my area (GA) in months. And it was a small play&trade tourney that I found about because a coworker came in one day saying he was coming back from a smash tournament (and I facepalmed because I didn't know about it ;__; )

I don't think Smash is very popular around here.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188452
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166879

GA barwl tournies I found in Atlantic South boards.
 

Tenki

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Sweet, one of them was posted tonight `.`;


baw, north of atl.

continue on with this tier discussion ;D
 

Falling Whistness

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Updated version of the average tier list.

As always, this tier list is composed of the average of everyone's tier lists in this thread.

Top Tier:
1. Snake
2. Meta Knight

High Tier:
1. Mr. Game & Watch
2. Marth
3. King Dedede
4. Falco
5. R.O.B.

Highish Tier:
1. Wario
2. Olimar

Upper Middle Tier:
1. Donkey Kong
2. Lucario
3. Toon Link
4. Wolf
5. Pit
6. Pikachu

Middle Tier:
1. Ice Climbers
2. Kirby
3. Diddy Kong
4. Fox
5. Zelda

Lower Middle Tier:
1. Luigi
2. Zero Suit Samus
3. Lucas
4. Ness
5. Peach

Low Tier:
1. Mario
2. Ike
3. Sonic
4. Sheik
5. Pokemon Trainer
6. Bowser

Bottom Tier:
1. Samus
2. Link
3. Yoshi
4. Jigglypuff
5. Ganondorf
6. Captain Falcon
 

Xiivi

So much for friendship huh...
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I wish people would stop putting Jigglypuff in the bottom 3 ¬_¬
Then you get people complaining about Link/Yoshi/Samus/etc.... in the bottom three. I've seen just about every bad character argued for Low Tier except Captain Falcon by this point.

The problem people don't put Fox in the bottom three where he belongs. ;)
 

ROOOOY!

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Yeah, Jigglypuff mains (I second him tbh) don't argue about his placing because they don't care.
I also second Ganondorf and Falcon, but I wouldn't argue any of those for low tier. The general consensus is that those two will probably end up bottom.
 

Tenki

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Why so much hate for Ganondorf, the sole man born in 100 years in the Gerudu Tribe?

=O

Because even though he has some tools that allow him to turn the momentum in a match with creepy mindreading, (side-B), his matchups are rather... subpar.

On paper, anyone with a projectile and/or offstage/gimpgame should win against Ganondorf.
 

Griffard

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Yeah, Jigglypuff mains (I second him tbh) don't argue about his placing because they don't care.
I also second Ganondorf and Falcon, but I wouldn't argue any of those for low tier. The general consensus is that those two will probably end up bottom.
not really :/ apparently you've missed this thread. it's pretty generally low tier
 

Gleam

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Actually not all projectiles destroy Ganondorf. Mario's Fireballs, Peaches turnips, these usually don't do jack to Ganndorf. The are annoying at times but nothing you can't handle. Its things like Waddle Dees, Pits Arrows and Snakes projectiles that cause Ganon harm.

What are tournaments consisted of, yep, characters like the one above. So its not really that Ganondorf sucks against projectiles, its just that there a more of those characters who have the projectile to cause Ganondorf harm.
 

Big Red

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Updated version of the average tier list.

As always, this tier list is composed of the average of everyone's tier lists in this thread.

{LIST}
It's weird, I hate all of the lists in this thread, but I actually really like this one. The only changes I'd make would be D3>Marth, Toon Link down below diddy, and Peach above the PK boys.
 

Snowstalker

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GOD:

Meta Knight
Snake

TOP:

Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
King Dedede

HIGH:

Captian Olimar
Wario
Kirby
Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Donkey Kong
Lucario
Zelda

MIDDLE:

Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Fox
Luigi
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
Lucas
Peach

LOW:

Mario
Bowser
Yoshi
Sonic
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
Samus

BOTTOM:

Jigglypuff
Link
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf
 

Yonder

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The problem people don't put Fox in the bottom three where he belongs. ;)

I know you gave a huge wall of text saying that he's bad, and they were very good reasons, but I don't really thnik he's in the bottom 3, are you trying to convince people that he's horrible cause you want to play as a bottom tier character? Just wondering.
 

Nestec

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I know you gave a huge wall of text saying that he's bad, and they were very good reasons, but I don't really thnik he's in the bottom 3, are you trying to convince people that he's horrible cause you want to play as a bottom tier character? Just wondering.
Eh, that's what I was starting to think.
 

Dynamism?

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That last list of falling whatever. That's actually not that bad. I'm impressed. Of course it's not perfect though lol
For 1, this is the first list since probably May where Lucas>Ness. That really doesn't make any sense. Ness>Lucas and is possibly a high tier character. That's been known as a regular thing for a few months now. :\
It's pretty good though, just little things. But this is all current metagame. The actual game, I haven't seen anything even close...
 

Deathcarter

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That's clearly racist.
This thread is about Brawl tier discussion. If you don't have anything to post aside from a comment about a non-relavent post 15 pages ago, please vacate this thread before you get incinerated by flames.


On topic, Jigglypuff is at least better than Ike, Link, Bowser, and Samus. Although, I would put all of them in bottom tier.
 

Xiivi

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I know you gave a huge wall of text saying that he's bad, and they were very good reasons, but I don't really thnik he's in the bottom 3, are you trying to convince people that he's horrible cause you want to play as a bottom tier character? Just wondering.
You noticed the little ;) at the end of my post right? Good.

For kicks:

*: MK
S: DDD, Falco, Snake
A: Wario, Marth, G&W, ROB
B: Lucario, Kirby, Olimar, DK
C: Diddy, ICs, Pit, Wolf, Peach
D: Pikachu, Toon Link, Zelda, ZSS
E: Sonic, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Samus, Lucas
F: Mario, Bowser, Ike, Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer
U: Jigglypuff, Link, Fox, Ganondorf, Falcon

Move Fox up 10spaces. LOL
 

Shy Guy 86

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You noticed the little ;) at the end of my post right? Good.

For kicks:

*: MK
S: DDD, Falco, Snake
A: Wario, Marth, G&W, ROB
B: Lucario, Kirby, Olimar, DK
C: Diddy, ICs, Pit, Wolf, Peach
D: Pikachu, Toon Link, Zelda, ZSS
E: Sonic, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Samus, Lucas
F: Mario, Bowser, Ike, Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer
U: Jigglypuff, Link, Fox, Ganondorf, Falcon

Move Fox up 10spaces. LOL
Pretty good list, though I'd put G&W Topping A and Wario at the last of A, Fox under Zelda, and its good to go
 

popsofctown

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on paper, Ness oughtta be a pretty good character, but he doesn't win tournaments. That's got to hurt him at least enough for him to be mid tier. Although i would be tolerant of him taking a high position there, he's a good, fluid character, whereas lucas is stiff.
 

ROOOOY!

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You noticed the little ;) at the end of my post right? Good.

For kicks:

*: MK
S: DDD, Falco, Snake
A: Wario, Marth, G&W, ROB
B: Lucario, Kirby, Olimar, DK
C: Diddy, ICs, Pit, Wolf, Peach
D: Pikachu, Toon Link, Zelda, ZSS
E: Sonic, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Samus, Lucas
F: Mario, Bowser, Ike, Yoshi, Pokemon Trainer
U: Jigglypuff, Link, Fox, Ganondorf, Falcon

Move Fox up 10spaces. LOL
Other than Snake and Gaymenwatch being a few places too low, I actually wholly agree with that list :O
If you're serious about moving Fox up, that is
 

What?

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Oh, Falcon mains.

The new Falcon is Rick Wheeler. That's why he's bad in Brawl.

How long did it take for the Melee tier list to form? I wonder if it'll take just as long for the Brawl list to get settled...
 
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