Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Neb]

5 frames is a whole lot of frames. A lot can happen in 5 frames. Extremely evasive characters can block that so much more often than MK's downsmash.
In practical play, G&W gets a lot of low% kills with his downsmash because it's a "sleeper" move, people aren't used to the huge range.

I think MK's uptilt reaches up higher than G&W's... but i'm not going to argue that MK's is better. The two serve different purposes, and really MK's uptilt gets press because he doesn't have as many kill moves as he would like.

Like Emblem Lord says, only G&W's lid is really really fast on the ground. I can't deny the move is wicked awesome, but it decays after a while. Meta Knight's ground moves combo more and rack faster. MK's downtilt might not have the lid's range, but it has a greater payoff and is equally fast.

MK can already be doing another move because he's done with the smash, he doesn't need IASA frames.

G&W's utilt is gay and shouldn't even be compared to MK's, its just handy for quick combo's at early percentages. Like you said, some of the moves serve different purposes, you just can't judge one from the other. GaW's dtilt is used as a spacer (So decaying isn't the focus of the move), MK's used for damage racking. But yes, it is pretty quick, has zero cool down.

And while MK combo's better, G&W's does better damage. MK can go around comboing for a measly 15-25%, while Game & Watch can throw out two bairs/nairs/fairs, or one dsmash/usmash/fsmash and get the same result, better in most cases.

 

[Sinz]

MKs is so much better, it gimp so well. It results in so many deaths it is ridiculous. Don't even think for a second that GaW has a better Dair.

While, I do admit, that key is pretty good still. Just it doesn't gimp people as well as MKs.

Also, MKs Dair is impossible to sheild grab if you do it right. It weakens the shield enough that you just do another one, and tornado.

 

[ShadowLink84]

5 frames is a whole lot of frames. A lot can happen in 5 frames. Extremely evasive characters can block that so much more often than MK's downsmash.
In practical play, G&W gets a lot of low% kills with his downsmash because it's a "sleeper" move, people aren't used to the huge range.

No. A spot dodge on average is 8+frames.
5 frames is very small

Most dodges are 30 +frames long.
Most of those dodge frames have only 8 frames in which the character is invincible.
So he spends more than 10 frames with hitbox out.

I must correct myself its not 5 frames longer than MK's Dsmash in terms of initiation.
I meant 5 frames of initiation before the hitbox appears.

Its slightly easier to avoid than MK's Dsmash, but its still a difficult move to get away from.

I think MK's uptilt reaches up higher than G&W's... but i'm not going to argue that MK's is better. The two serve different purposes, and really MK's uptilt gets press because he doesn't have as many kill moves as he would like.

Yes it does.

However the actual hitbox of the U tilt is rather narrow in comparison to G&W's.

 

[Sinz]

The good MK's don't spam Downsmash
Instead we abuse the opportunity for amazing tilts.

 

[adumbrodeus]

G&W's utilt is gay and shouldn't even be compared to MK's, its just handy for quick combo's at early percentages. Like you said, some of the moves serve different purposes, you just can't judge one from the other. GaW's dtilt is used as a spacer (So decaying isn't the focus of the move), MK's used for damage racking. But yes, it is pretty quick, has zero cool down.

And while MK combo's better, G&W's does better damage. MK can go around comboing for a measly 15-25%, while Game & Watch can throw out two bairs/nairs/fairs, or one dsmash/usmash/fsmash and get the same result, better in most cases.

Yeah, but MK is more successful in that regard.

Plus his gimp game is far better, as well as a host of other attributes.

G&W is good, but he's no MK.

The good MK's don't spam Downsmash
Instead we abuse the opportunity for amazing tilts.

Yeah, you just kill with it...

 

[nick_phizz]

You people are idiots.

Where can I find a fight on here online anyway?

 

[Neb]

Of course he's not, MK is considered God Tier by some.
I wasn't defending tiers or anything, just having a discussion about either character's moveset.
The match-up is fairly even, I could care less, 3rd best isn't too bad.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

List.

Pretty good list, though I'd move fox up to Mario, Luigi and ZSS, and Move TL down there with them. I know that Fox fell from(14th?) rank in the tourney results to the (26th?) but IMO he would be as good as them, I knew Wario will be mid tier(and not high tier) when I was a n00b(though I might still be one, but not a big one as before ) and Olimar is a bit too high(imo) I used to hate him but now I think he is good an all, but the tether recovery hurts, and his Tourney results are dropping(15th). though I'd place him below King DDD.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Of course he's not, MK is considered God Tier by some.
I wasn't defending tiers or anything, just having a discussion about either character's moveset.
The match-up is fairly even, I could care less, 3rd best isn't too bad.

True...

Yeah, I get what you're saying. Still, I'm interested in how safe Mk's smashes are, when do the IASA frames start?

You people are idiots.

Where can I find a fight on here online anyway?

You're sounding more and more like that article I mentioned ("Local Idiot To Post Comment On Internet" in case you forgot)...


Check the SWF friendfinder if you want an online match, there's a link to it in the description of Online Discussion on the forum mainpage.

 

[nick_phizz]

True...
You're sounding more and more like that article I mentioned ("Local Idiot To Post Comment On Internet" in case you forgot)...


Check the SWF friendfinder if you want an online match, there's a link to it in the description of Online Discussion on the forum mainpage.

I care not how u think i sound.

that online discussion place is empty!!

 

[A6M Zero]

I did everyone a favour and slaughtered Nick_phizz for yall, he should be keeping his trolling to calling me an edgehogger in PM for now.

 

[Yaya]

In Response to A6M's Tier List.

Thanks for not putting Pokemon Trainer at the bottom even though you destroy me with Fox.

 

[Kiwikomix]

@ Nick: http://smashboards.com/ff
Good luck finding a fight at this time of night.

 

[nick_phizz]

I did everyone a favour and slaughtered Nick_phizz for yall, he should be keeping his trolling to calling me an edgehogger in PM for now.

You really think you're that good? Well, edge hogging does seem pretty common around here, I don't know how I missed it. I forgot about lag (excuse to you all), but I'm gonna start back playing online and...

Kiwi: what's the ff for?

 

[Yaya]

No Johns.

Spoiler

10

 

[A6M Zero]

Back to tier list discussion, Ganondorf fails, and as time goes on and people get better (leaving only the trolls and scrubs to wallow in ganondorfs failure) he will slip lower and lower on the tier list, until eventually he is right above Captain Falcon (both true and an innuendo).

 

[Grunt]

I don't know how I missed it.

probably because he was grabbing it.

ANYWAYS!

 

[Tenki]

You really think you're that good? Well, edge hogging does seem pretty common around here, I don't know how I missed it. I forgot about lag (excuse to you all), but I'm gonna start back playing online and...

Kiwi: what's the ff for?

1) lag johns
2) ff = friend finder.

 

[Justblaze647]

cuz R.O.B. owns marth, and the better matchups is questionable.

How exactly does R.O.B. own Marth? How well can you play either of the two?

 

[Grunt]

How exactly does R.O.B. own Marth? How well can you play either of the two?

maybe he watched the Ken/CPU set.

 

[Frown]

 

[Mmac]

Nah, that was the June Tier List Discussion, The Y Word discussion pretty much died down for the last month

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Frowns post is part of the 4% minority

 

[Tenki]

lol

I'm pretty sure that at least 9% of that 16 is Shadowlink trying to correct misconceptions on Sonic.

I still wish people thought jabs could be used to effectively stop all of Sonic's approaches

Most Sonic mains are accepting of the fact that Sonic is not a good character and thus don't really care about his tier placement XD

 

[Grunt]

Take two percent away from intelligent posts and add them to Trolling/TR4Q posts.

 

[adumbrodeus]

1% of Ike/sonic to "rants from people who think bad characters other then Ike/sonic/yoshi are good".

And this:

Take two percent away from intelligent posts and add them to Trolling/TR4Q posts.

Now we're good.

 

[ShadowLink84]

pfft tenki is just jealous cause I get to stupidity first.

I find it rather fun shutting them down...usually.

*shrug*

 

[popsofctown]

The y word died down? What was the decision on Yoshi? I think he's mid.

 

[Snail]

The y word died down? What was the decision on Yoshi? I think he's mid.

Yeah I agree, mid tier sounds about right. He has a versatile projectile, powerful smashes, a great recovery with SUPER ARMOR on his 2nd jump and he is really good overall!

/start new Yoshi discussion

 

[ShadowLink84]

ITS NOT SUPER ARMOR ITS JUGGERNAUT!

Frigging people...

 

[Snail]

ITS NOT SUPER ARMOR ITS JUGGERNAUT!

Frigging people...

I was being sarcastic. Notice the gray "/start new Yoshi discussion" at the end of my post? (;

 

[Tenki]

I was being sarcastic. Notice the gray "/start new Yoshi discussion" at the end of my post? (;

it needs to be more subtle for the default skin users, like this ;o

 

[ShadowLink84]

Sarcasm is difficult to detect even with the dark gray sentence!

 

[Snail]

Sarcasm is difficult to detect even with the dark gray sentence!

Kay ._. Well, know that I'm fully aware of the fact that Yoshi's 2nd jump doesn't have SA frames and that he's not Mid tier.

Now that we've settled that, let us continue discussing Yoshi's tier placement? XD

 

[ROOOOY!]

I'd say mid-low. Thank his OK matchups for that.
He's failing on the tournaments scene and is not a great character.

 

[Frown]

Yoshi makes Wario and Olimar cry.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not too sure about it.
What does Yoshi have on wario

Other tha Yoshi's infinite on Wario I don't know of much else.

 

[Mmac]

And MetaKnight

Edit:

Not too sure about it.
What does Yoshi have on wario

Other tha Yoshi's infinite on Wario I don't know of much else.

Without the Infinite, Yoshi vs. Wario is very neutralish. They match in the air well, and in the ground well. Wario has slightly better Aircontrol while Yoshi has a faster Ground game, and a Projectile.

 

[Snail]

Not too sure about it.
What does Yoshi have on wario

Other tha Yoshi's infinite on Wario I don't know of much else.

Grab release infinites are a pretty big thing... Enough to make someone cry.

Olimar forums rate Yoshi as a 60/40 matchup in Yoshi's favour. The reason for this is unknown to me (I don't have any trouble with Yoshi's, at all) but if both forums say Yoshi > Olimar, then it must be true :/

Yoshi doesn't have an advantage on MK. No character does, except perhaps Snake, so don't be ridiculous.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I have seen that being said so many times >.>
And I cannot honestly think of one single thing Yoshi has on Metaknight.
NOTHING.
I'm not saying you're wrong :') I'm just going to take convincing.