You're missing my point. I'm not saying that Falcon/Ike is better than Sonic. I'm saying that Ike is more likely to see a change in opinion. Falcon isn't likely to ever be seen as anything but crap, and I blame Melee's Falcon for that. But as for Sonic, I'd say that his position on the general opinion tier list is far more concrete.
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
Mmac
Smash Lord
What does that have to do with anything? Are you implying thats my ONLY reason why Yoshi > MetaKnight?
Snail
Smash Lord
What you're basically saying is Yoshi > MK because of a grab combo and better vertical priority :/ MK > Yoshi in speed, overall priority, gimping, combo's, approaching and recovery. I simply can't imagine it's in Yoshi's favour... But I guess I'll check out the MK boards and see what they say.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Yep. It has pretty good range and priority. Tornado is probably the hardest of the 3, but it's still possible
Except thats flawed because Yoshi can get through the tornado with his Usmash invincibility frames, though it has to be timed right.
No, I'm saying that Yoshi's Defencive game > MetaKnight's Agressive game. I'm starting to think nobody read that post 30 post's back.
If Yoshi is in a defencive playstyle, then MetaKnight has no direct approach on him, as his Pivot Grabs/Usmash covers everything he has against him.He has to play clever in order to get in to get some hits, or else be punished severely
Onxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- May 15, 2008
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- 1,568
No, I'm just saying that you're talking about MK, he is considered broken for a reason, and most people claim that there character has a huge advantage against MK. Yeah Yoshi may have a chaingrab on him, but so a few other characters so too, and MK's considered to be better in those matchups.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
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Mmac, I don't think there are many (if any at all) characters who can size up defensively to MK's aggressive game. By my understanding, Yoshi doesn't have that many options OOS, and his general defensive moves (Usmash, Dsmash, grab?) are all going to get punished if you use them carelessly.
Personally I've actually had experience from the match-up (being the Yoshi), and it's not an easy fight, though my Yoshi isn't exactly brilliant. I'd give it 60:40 MK's favour, Yoshi's grabs are only going to get him(?) so far.
Personally I've actually had experience from the match-up (being the Yoshi), and it's not an easy fight, though my Yoshi isn't exactly brilliant. I'd give it 60:40 MK's favour, Yoshi's grabs are only going to get him(?) so far.
Hyper_Ridley
Smash Champion
I guess now's not a good time to say that on my personal tier list, Yoshi is the only character in bottom tier...
Seriously though, you should have seen my reaction when I saw how bad Egg Roll is now for recovery (AKA useless).
Seriously though, you should have seen my reaction when I saw how bad Egg Roll is now for recovery (AKA useless).
Mmac
Smash Lord
Gee, have you tried using UpB to recover?
Yoshi's defencive game is unique in the fact that he can't rely on his Shield like the other characters because it's too stiff, and has limited options. Pivot Grabs are basically his defencive game because it works so well, and is a staple in his game, as he can easily snag aggressive people out of it without much worry of a counterattack if he screws up.
If you don't know about Pivot Grabs, then obviously you can't deal with MetaKnight (or anyone for that matter) as easily.
You should have seen my reaction when I found out how bad Nikita was for recovery (AKA useless).
`.`;
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
What supports this claim?
If you look at both Ike and Sonic both of them have been improving in terms of their ranking.
Ike is far more concrete than SOnic because unlike Sonic, Ike's metagame has been mostly established while with Sonic, you still see greatly varying behavior in terms of how SOnic is being used.
Hyper_Ridley
Smash Champion
See, that's the problem. Yoshi has to rely on his pivot grabs for defense, which makes him predictable. Other characters have pivot grabs in addition to reliable shielding options.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Says the guy who doesn't realize his UpB recovers now >_>
Yoshi's Pivot Grabs =/= Everyone else's Pivot Grabs
well.... Maybe Lucas....
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
GOD:
Meta Knight
TOP:
Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
King Dedede
HIGH:
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
Wario
Pit
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
MIDDLE:
Zelda
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Fox
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Lucas
Peach
LOW:
Mario
Yoshi
Sonic
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
BOTTOM:
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf
Meta Knight
TOP:
Snake
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
Marth
R.O.B
King Dedede
HIGH:
Olimar
Lucario
Kirby
Wario
Pit
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Pikachu
MIDDLE:
Zelda
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Wolf
Fox
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
Luigi
Lucas
Peach
LOW:
Mario
Yoshi
Sonic
Bowser
Shiek
Pokemon Trainer
Ike
BOTTOM:
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Captian Falcon
Ganondorf
i.E.
Smash Apprentice
Ike's a little low there.....care to explain?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Just on the yoshi vs olimar matchup, its definately in yoshis favor. Olimar can do NOTHING once hes in the air due to egg roll, yoshi destroys olimar offstage. Olimar does outcamp tho, but approaching isnt hard at all against olimar with yoshi(not easy, but not as hard as it is with some characters).
On MK: I think its 45-55 MK, I think MKs offense>yoshis defense, but yoshi can kill easier, does have a good defensive game against MK, and since most MKs these days are used to being able to go on a super aggresive offense, yoshis pivot grabs force them to play differently.
Also, against MK, yoshis pivot grabs>olimars.
On MK: I think its 45-55 MK, I think MKs offense>yoshis defense, but yoshi can kill easier, does have a good defensive game against MK, and since most MKs these days are used to being able to go on a super aggresive offense, yoshis pivot grabs force them to play differently.
Also, against MK, yoshis pivot grabs>olimars.
Shadow5567
Smash Journeyman
Snake is to high and Ike, Pokemon Trainer, and Wolf are to low
Mmac
Smash Lord
Ok... I think we should break away from this Matchup Thing.
And Snake is too High now?
And Snake is too High now?
Grunt
Smash Master
lawl, whut?
i.E.
Smash Apprentice
arcane9211
Smash Apprentice
There are a few small nitpicks I have with Snowstalker's list (nothing really worth pointing out atm), but on the whole I like it.
gantrain05
Smash Master
um? what? i am so confused on what u are saying, what the hell does egg roll have to do with anything when olimar is in the air, and on the pivot grab vs metaknight, how is that gonna work when most meta i know don't really just run at u, they will come in with tornados, and arial attacks, and a dash grab that is 2x faster than yoshi's pivot grab, and everyone who is playing against a good yoshi knows about the pivot grab anyway, its not like its a big surprise anymore and its not hard to get around.
Mmac
Smash Lord
Because..................
........ I don't know \(O_o)/
May have a fact that it has priority over his Air Attacks, but it's not exactly something I would do. Unless he's not telling me something I don't know....
Except Pivot Grabs beat all of that, and Usmash beats everything else if he takes the high route.
except Yoshi has 5x the Range
We've been practically telling everyone about it. It's not like were keeping it as a huge secret. It's easy to get around because it's ground based. Problem is that it puts him in a perfect spot for the Usmash, no matter what he does.
Big mistake, you cant take out a good metas tornado with an usmash cause as you said it it requires an exact spot, well first of all Meta CONTROLS the tornado, and he can mindgame you with it easely, its way harder to usmash than it looks. Second, pivot grab has alot of weakness, what if meta dodges the grab??? Downsmash >.>
Please show us how good yoshi beats meta agaisnt some known meta. And btw, meta wont get hit by your dair for gods sake it has so much startup lag and an up b goes right throught.
As for you having priority when you are under him, everyone does that. Ice climbers for exemple can outpriorize any(yes ANY) attack coming from above with upb. Im sorry but as soon as your above someone, your in disadvantage, the problem is getting the person above you is very hard when he is lagless and your not. And for your information, meta will abuse of your lag.
Ok, seing as I'm very bored I'm going tomake a list that's as legit as I can get it. First lets look at the recent tournament results from Ankoku's thread:
Meta Knight, Snake
Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, Wario, Marth
Lucario, Falco, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, ROB
Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pit, Peach ...gap..., Zero Suit Samus, Wolf
Ike, Sonic, Fox , Lucas...gap...,Pokémon Trainer, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Sheik, Zelda, Sheik/Zelda, Bowser, Ness
Link, Yoshi, Samus, Mario, Luigi...gap..., Ganondorf...gap..., Captain Falcon
Whether you put both Snake and MK in the same tier or not, I think it's pretty safe to say MK is going to be number one. And although some people argue that G&W should actually be higher than Snake the sheer gap in tourney results still keeps Snake as second in my book.
G&W and Dedede are pretty much tied in points, but if think if you look at the matchups, G&W owns or draws even with pretty much the whole cast, while Dedede has some really bad matchups. So G&W for number 3.
King Dedede and Marth (I'll get to Wario in a moment) arn't that far from each other in points, and they both **** a large portion of the cast. Dedede has more counters than Marth I believe, but also more onesided matchups in his favor. I'm gonna give Dedede 4th place for now, closely followed by Marth.
Then we have Wario. I might be going a bit overboard on this one, but I don't think Wario is going to keep his place as 6th best in tournies. He has some terrible matchups against G&W, Dedede and Luigi, and a lot of other matchups have become worse when his grab release problem was discovered. We'll see him a little lower on the list because of this.
Quite a little below Wario we find Lucario. I'm gonna go out and say that Lucario would end up lower than 7th and the main reason he's so high (much like Wario) is because the Lucario's in tournies are amazing (Azen!). He'll scroll down a little bit.
Right behind him there's Falco. Who I'm gonna give Wario's place. I'm not 100% sure he's actually better than ROB (or even Diddy) but the results give him an edge.
Then the old Diddy Kong, the more people play him, the more dangerous his nanner game looks. I'm gonna put him behind Falco.
I think I'll put the ungimpable, laser shooting, spotdodging, down smashing, glidetossing robot behind him, even though his results only put him in 11nd place.
This means we have Wario, DK and Lucario fighting for the last few spots, tough choices. Just because Wario has done so great in tournies, I'm gonna give him the spot behind ROB. And by that logic, Lucario goes in front of DK.
For top of mid tier I think Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Olimar would all be acceptable. But because of tournament results, I'm gonna leave them in that order for now. Toon Link gets a place behind them, low doesn't seem appropriate. Pit can go below him. Peach is save in Middle tier though, she not that bad with the float cancelling and all but removing her double jump didn't really help her.
For (hopefully) obvious reasons I'm gonna lift Zelda a bit too, middle of low tier would be a bit harsh. After that I'm gonna put ZSS and then Wolf (but that feels like a coinflip). After that I'm gonna save Fox from low tier. He's no where near as good as he used to be. But certainly better than Sonic. Also, an extra space in bottom of mid is reserved for weegee. It might be a bit of a drastic lift if you look at the results, but he's no where near the bottom.
Top of low: Ike (sure why not). Sonic is gonna go down some more I'm afraid so let's put Lucas behind Ike. Pokemon trainer follows. Jiggly (I'm sorry Jiggs) get's pushed down some more. Bowser behind Pkmn trainer, Sheik behind Bowser. Ness goes down some more. Mario get's boosted to bottom of low, with Yoshi one space under him (how fitting).
Ness for for top of bottom tier, then Sonic, then Samus, then Jiggs, then Link, then Ganon and Falcon.
So that would look something like this:
God:
MK
Top:
Snake, G&W, Dedede, Marth, Falco
High:
Diddy Kong, ROB, Wario, Lucario, DK
Mid:
Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Toon Link, Pit, Peach, Zamus, Wolf, Fox, Luigi
Low:
Ike, Lucas, Pokemon Trainer, Bowser, Sheik, Mario, Yoshi
Bottom:
Ness, Sonic, Samus, Jiggs, Link, Ganon
Uber:
Captain Falcon
Meta Knight, Snake
Mr. Game & Watch, King Dedede, Wario, Marth
Lucario, Falco, Diddy Kong, Donkey Kong, ROB
Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Pit, Peach ...gap..., Zero Suit Samus, Wolf
Ike, Sonic, Fox , Lucas...gap...,Pokémon Trainer, Jigglypuff, Toon Link, Sheik, Zelda, Sheik/Zelda, Bowser, Ness
Link, Yoshi, Samus, Mario, Luigi...gap..., Ganondorf...gap..., Captain Falcon
Whether you put both Snake and MK in the same tier or not, I think it's pretty safe to say MK is going to be number one. And although some people argue that G&W should actually be higher than Snake the sheer gap in tourney results still keeps Snake as second in my book.
G&W and Dedede are pretty much tied in points, but if think if you look at the matchups, G&W owns or draws even with pretty much the whole cast, while Dedede has some really bad matchups. So G&W for number 3.
King Dedede and Marth (I'll get to Wario in a moment) arn't that far from each other in points, and they both **** a large portion of the cast. Dedede has more counters than Marth I believe, but also more onesided matchups in his favor. I'm gonna give Dedede 4th place for now, closely followed by Marth.
Then we have Wario. I might be going a bit overboard on this one, but I don't think Wario is going to keep his place as 6th best in tournies. He has some terrible matchups against G&W, Dedede and Luigi, and a lot of other matchups have become worse when his grab release problem was discovered. We'll see him a little lower on the list because of this.
Quite a little below Wario we find Lucario. I'm gonna go out and say that Lucario would end up lower than 7th and the main reason he's so high (much like Wario) is because the Lucario's in tournies are amazing (Azen!). He'll scroll down a little bit.
Right behind him there's Falco. Who I'm gonna give Wario's place. I'm not 100% sure he's actually better than ROB (or even Diddy) but the results give him an edge.
Then the old Diddy Kong, the more people play him, the more dangerous his nanner game looks. I'm gonna put him behind Falco.
I think I'll put the ungimpable, laser shooting, spotdodging, down smashing, glidetossing robot behind him, even though his results only put him in 11nd place.
This means we have Wario, DK and Lucario fighting for the last few spots, tough choices. Just because Wario has done so great in tournies, I'm gonna give him the spot behind ROB. And by that logic, Lucario goes in front of DK.
For top of mid tier I think Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Olimar would all be acceptable. But because of tournament results, I'm gonna leave them in that order for now. Toon Link gets a place behind them, low doesn't seem appropriate. Pit can go below him. Peach is save in Middle tier though, she not that bad with the float cancelling and all but removing her double jump didn't really help her.
For (hopefully) obvious reasons I'm gonna lift Zelda a bit too, middle of low tier would be a bit harsh. After that I'm gonna put ZSS and then Wolf (but that feels like a coinflip). After that I'm gonna save Fox from low tier. He's no where near as good as he used to be. But certainly better than Sonic. Also, an extra space in bottom of mid is reserved for weegee. It might be a bit of a drastic lift if you look at the results, but he's no where near the bottom.
Top of low: Ike (sure why not). Sonic is gonna go down some more I'm afraid so let's put Lucas behind Ike. Pokemon trainer follows. Jiggly (I'm sorry Jiggs) get's pushed down some more. Bowser behind Pkmn trainer, Sheik behind Bowser. Ness goes down some more. Mario get's boosted to bottom of low, with Yoshi one space under him (how fitting).
Ness for for top of bottom tier, then Sonic, then Samus, then Jiggs, then Link, then Ganon and Falcon.
So that would look something like this:
God:
MK
Top:
Snake, G&W, Dedede, Marth, Falco
High:
Diddy Kong, ROB, Wario, Lucario, DK
Mid:
Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Toon Link, Pit, Peach, Zamus, Wolf, Fox, Luigi
Low:
Ike, Lucas, Pokemon Trainer, Bowser, Sheik, Mario, Yoshi
Bottom:
Ness, Sonic, Samus, Jiggs, Link, Ganon
Uber:
Captain Falcon
TeeVee
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,570
This list doesn't look too bad at all.
)
BBQ°
Smash Champion
Hi guys this is my alphabet tire list. Plz discuss this requires discussion. Thx.
God Tire
Bowser
Captain Flacon
Higher Tire
Diddy
Donkey Kong
Flaco
Fox
High Tire
Mr. Game and Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climber
Ike
Jigglypoff
King DeDeDe
Kirby
Low Tire
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Metaknight
Ness
Lower Tire
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
PKMN Trianer
Rob
Samus
Sheik
Bottom tire
Snake
Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Yodhi
Zelda
ZZS
God Tire
Bowser
Captain Flacon
Higher Tire
Diddy
Donkey Kong
Flaco
Fox
High Tire
Mr. Game and Watch
Ganondorf
Ice Climber
Ike
Jigglypoff
King DeDeDe
Kirby
Low Tire
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Metaknight
Ness
Lower Tire
Olimar
Peach
Pikachu
Pit
PKMN Trianer
Rob
Samus
Sheik
Bottom tire
Snake
Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Wolf
Yodhi
Zelda
ZZS
Hyper_Ridley
Smash Champion
First, I do know that Up-B can recover with Yoshi. Honestly, that first post was more of a joke than anything else, becasue in Melee I used egg roll to help recover horizontaly, so when I saw that in this game Egg Roll in the air is like using Yoshi Bomb, I was... a little peeved.
Second, Yoshi may have a really good pivot grab, but having ONE really good trait isn't going to win matches. Bowser is the hardest character to KO in the game, but I don't see him making it above low tier anytime soon.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
You start out so well then just flatline near the lower part of mid tier.
Sonic probably isn't going down anytime soon. If you have been watching character rankings, him, Ike and a few others have been moving up. So to place them in bottom tier when their character rankings (especially Sonic's) are far from bottom tier is extremely contradictory. To my knowledge they haven't dropped and each time they rose, it was to a significant degree.
Not only that if you have used Sonic, Link, Samus and Ness you would see that they are far.
For Sonic specifically he is 21st so to place him as number 37 out of 39 on the tier list is much too great.
Either place him top of low tier or in lower mid tier since it would be too great a stretch to stick him that low.
This also goes for Ness.
Not only that you also aren't taking matchups into account either so again, this would mean Link, Ness, Sonic and possibly Samus should not be bottom tier because their matchups are too good to be in bottom.
There are a few other issues but they are in the correct tier IMO even if their placement isn't exactly as I thought it should be.
Hyper_Ridley
Smash Champion
Hold on, how is Sonic improving? I thought his moves were slowish and didn't have much prioity. Is there some great new Sonic technique that I don't know about?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
This is why people should visit character boards.
I had a whole lecture planned but frankly I am rather sick of explaining things over and over that really should be known.
I had a whole lecture planned but frankly I am rather sick of explaining things over and over that really should be known.
Hyper_Ridley
Smash Champion
Sooo... Sonic has about 40 different ways to enhance his moves. News to me.
Why can't Ganon have 40 different ways to enhance his moves?
Why can't Ganon have 40 different ways to enhance his moves?
MysticKenji
Smash Master
Because they either haven't been found or don't exist at all.
Yeah I knew there were going to be some controversy when it came to the lower ones. And rightfully so. Maybe I was to harsh on Sonic and Ness and to nice for Fox, Luigi. But really, picking the really bad ones is quite hard. Except for lets say Falcon and Ganon everyone will say something about the character like: of course he's not top tier, but he's no where near the bottom. This goes for Yoshi, Ness, Sonic, Link, Samus and Jigglypuff. So who's bottom tier?
I would sadly put Jiggs in there, but who else is solid bottom tier material?
Otherwise it would look something like this:
God:
MK
Top:
Snake, G&W, Dedede, Marth, Falco
High:
Diddy Kong, ROB, Wario, Lucario, DK
Mid:
Kirby, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Toon Link, Pit, Peach, Zamus, Wolf, Fox, Luigi
Low:
Ike, Lucas, Sonic, Pokemon Trainer, Bowser, Samus, Link, Sheik, Mario, Ness, Yoshi
Bottom:
Jiggs, Ganon
Uber:
Captain Falcon
And this means Yoshi would be 4th from bottom again, which they will protest to. Low/bottom tier is freaking hard.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Well the only ones that really appear to be bottom tier material is Ganondorf and Captain Falcon. Both of them have an obvious separation fro other characters.
I was thinking Jigglypuff would be a candidate as well.
Either way bottom tier doesn't need to have a set amount of characters. Same for low tier/midtier/hightier/top tier.
I was thinking Jigglypuff would be a candidate as well.
Either way bottom tier doesn't need to have a set amount of characters. Same for low tier/midtier/hightier/top tier.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I never said exact spot, I said TIMING. Yoshi's Usmash has Invincibility frames in his head, but it only activates during the peak of his attack. If he does it too soon, then it won't kick in and will just get sucked in. We already covered that if he spotdodges the Grab, Yoshi has just enough time to spotdodge himself (Unless he telegraphs it and Spotdodge's before the Grab)
I said Uair, not UpB. I know that barley anything beats it, but MetaKnight isn't going to spam the crap out of it because he needs it to kill.
Well good for them, but I'm going to assume that thats his only attack that deals with his from underneath him. We're not trying to attack him from underneath, but it's nice to see that MetaKnight does indeed have a blind spot. What were trying to do is just maintaining a Defencive Position so that it limits MetaKnight's options greatly.
Define "Lagless". Over 80% of his attacks have either no startup lag altogether, or only a few frames of startup lag. This includes his Jab, Tilts, Usmash, Dsmash, Nair, Bair, Uair, Ground DownB Rising Hit, and his Pivot Grab. However, only his Jab, Utilt, Dtilt, Listed Airs, and Pivot Grabs don't have much Afterlag which MK can't punish. However any smart Yoshi wont use the after lag heavy attacks unless they know it will hit.
Well, Egg Toss as a recovery I would say is 6x Better than his Egg Roll recovery. It defends against Edgeguarders, Can block some projectiles, Sweetspots the ledge, and is just a better recovery overall.
I wouldn't say that Bowser being Heavy = Really good trait (Especially since Yoshi is just as Heavy). Plus Bowser has alot of flaws while Yoshi only has a few (But pretty major) ones. The only Flaws I found with Yoshi is that his Shield Game is very lackluster (Pivot Grabs cover it well, but you going to still have to shield in some cases. At least it's Sturdier than everyones), and he lacks in Kill Power (I don't really mind, probably he does a very good job at racking up damage, but I would like to at least have his old Dsmash back).
Ok, so except for some tweaks within the tiers above list could work? I just have the feeling someone sucks more then they are admitting. Just not sure who it is.
ROOOOY!
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2006
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- NNID
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I've had enough of this thread, and the general lack of common sense that is being shown.
People putting Ike bottom tier and Sonic low low tier is getting too tiring. THE TIER LISTS ARE BASED PREDOMINATELY ON TOURNAMENT PLACINGS, followed by general matchups, and then general characters abilities.
Ike and Sonic's tournament results are better than over 15 members of the cast. Does this warrant bottom tier?
Sonic's match-ups aren't bad, and Ike's are slightly iffy but he doesn't get ***** hard by anyone. Again, does this warrant bottom tier?
Ugh. I'll be back in 5 pages when people have posted more bull**** lists.
People putting Ike bottom tier and Sonic low low tier is getting too tiring. THE TIER LISTS ARE BASED PREDOMINATELY ON TOURNAMENT PLACINGS, followed by general matchups, and then general characters abilities.
Ike and Sonic's tournament results are better than over 15 members of the cast. Does this warrant bottom tier?
Sonic's match-ups aren't bad, and Ike's are slightly iffy but he doesn't get ***** hard by anyone. Again, does this warrant bottom tier?
Ugh. I'll be back in 5 pages when people have posted more bull**** lists.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I think Matchup's should be the most deciding factor when making a Tier list, and should have priority over the other two factors. Basing a Tier List on mainly Tournament Results is just completely unfair to characters that are just generally unpopular to begin with *Coughblargroyoshikekeke*.
Frown
poekmon
People can't seem to get that there are probably a zillion Ike players at the tournaments but just a few make it to top eitght.
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