Meh, Weegee gets infinited by Dedede, who (IIRC) is more popular than all of Wario's infiniters (not a word) combined.
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
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nick_phizz
Smash Cadet
kinda late but: i don't even think you back up yourself in whatever reasoning u hav. people still only go for the highest because of... well, basically popluar demand. nobody wants to see a low char winning tournaments, so thats y no1 really bothers to be original. personally, i use (check the side) not caring his/her rank and still beat people who are skilled and dont spam the same moves over and over. you seem like a knowledgeable person who speaks from a bit of experience but try viewing things from a different perspective.
darkNES386
Smash Lord
This list seems pretty good. I made one change. I want to clarify something, did you put them in each tier group in a specific order or just into groups of similar skill? Is Sonic supposed to be the best of your "Low Tier"?
Top Tier:
Meta Knight
Snake
Higher:
Falco
R.O.B.
Marth Mr.Game and Watch DeDeDe
^Is this silly on me... cause I would put them in this order. In other words, I just don't know after Falco and ROB. R.O.B's projectile game can be really nasty for most opponents. According to the tournament results thread... Falco does better considering he isn't used as much as Game And Watch which is why I have him under Falco.
High:
Wario
Pikachu
DK
Lucario
Ice Climbers
Middle:
Diddy
Kirby
Pit
Olimar
Wolf
Peach
Toon Link
Bowser
Zelda/Sheik
Lucas
Fox
Zelda
Low:
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Luigi
Mario
Ness
Yoshi
Ike
Jigglypuff
Samus
Link
Sheik
Zamus
Bottom:
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
Look guys, this discussion has been going on for a while, and there's no end in sight. So my question for all to ponder is: what do you make of Jiggly on the list? I have my own personal opinion (check my sig) but i want honest feedback from smashers on Jiggs.
Sonic is better than Luigi?
*head explodes*
*head explodes*
About 30 spaces on the character ranking list.
Frown
poekmon
In Melee, she could combo the crap out of most characters, and edgeguard them to the end of the world because of here good aerial moves, but now that hitstun is lower and every character has an uber recovery, she will most likely end up bottom tier.
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
I'm back.
I'm probably gonna try a make a new edition of my list soon >_>
I'm probably gonna try a make a new edition of my list soon >_>
Browny
Smash Hater
for a change, try to incorporate tourney results into your next list eh
Eclipse_the_Sun
Smash Rookie
Explain this travesty
Gygados
Smash Apprentice
^^^^^^^^
Zamus is a good fighter, but I personally hate her.
42 posts. That's-a good number!
Zamus is a good fighter, but I personally hate her.
42 posts. That's-a good number!
mRC isn't that good, or if he is, I wouldn't know. He never gets top 8s and his video features him playing bad people.
Snakeee is the ZSS to watch for, and hell, you're in his state.
Well i guess thats true..he did kinda bad in all his friendlies. But i just kept thinking they were old and not as good as he is know.
Ive only seen Snakeee's videos like once. And his guides.
adumbrodeus
Smash Legend
Look, he explained a good example of why popularity doesn't rule the tiers.
There are plenty of low tier mainers, and they have a lot of incentive to be original, and try to push the limits. If they figure out a way to advance the chars meta-game to the point that the char becomes good, then the char will start winning tournaments and become popular in general.
This happened to BOTH melee and brawl Marth, ROB, and plenty of other characters, but melee marth is probably the most noticeable example.
There are plenty of people trying to advance the game of low tier characters, if anything it's the high tier characters that have the incentive to rest on their laurels (specifically, a lot of MKs).
SlickSlicer
Smash Apprentice
tiers r 4 q...FABULOUS people
My only thought on all of this is that Sonic's taunts are top-tier.
Well, in all seriousness, some characters are better than others. I find a lot of these lists disappointing though. I play Lucario often, and I don't think he's better than toon link, which is what one list indicated, for instance. One list also had samus above zamus, which I don't think is the case. I think samus should have been made better than zamus, but instead I think samus ended up sucking pretty badly. I've seen much better zero suits than serious samus players.
I think there should be book-keeping done at tournaments or something, so that someone can make a tier list based on collective statistics.
My only thought on all of this is that Sonic's taunts are top-tier.
Well, in all seriousness, some characters are better than others. I find a lot of these lists disappointing though. I play Lucario often, and I don't think he's better than toon link, which is what one list indicated, for instance. One list also had samus above zamus, which I don't think is the case. I think samus should have been made better than zamus, but instead I think samus ended up sucking pretty badly. I've seen much better zero suits than serious samus players.
I think there should be book-keeping done at tournaments or something, so that someone can make a tier list based on collective statistics.
FishkeeperTimmay!
Smash Ace
*Cries*
Lurk moarrrrrrr.
PrinceMarthX
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 258
No one has yet to explain why the tier difference between Wario and Luigi is so big.
Luigi is better in the air because of his higher priority and quicker attacks.
Luigi Cyclone is a better approach than Wario Bike because using it doesn't risk weakening your recovery and it knocks them straight up.
Wario doesn't have any projectile at all.
Luigi's smashes are stronger.
Luigi's neutral air is probably the most broken air attack in the game.
Luigi can use his low % killer (fire jump punch) anytime he wants instead of having to wait like Wario (Wario Waft)
Wario has his advantages (Bite is a good surprise grab and can stop certain projectile spam, harder to KO, recovery is less gimpable, faster in the air) but he doesn't seem nearly as good as Luigi. So why is Wario considered the better character?
Luigi is better in the air because of his higher priority and quicker attacks.
Luigi Cyclone is a better approach than Wario Bike because using it doesn't risk weakening your recovery and it knocks them straight up.
Wario doesn't have any projectile at all.
Luigi's smashes are stronger.
Luigi's neutral air is probably the most broken air attack in the game.
Luigi can use his low % killer (fire jump punch) anytime he wants instead of having to wait like Wario (Wario Waft)
Wario has his advantages (Bite is a good surprise grab and can stop certain projectile spam, harder to KO, recovery is less gimpable, faster in the air) but he doesn't seem nearly as good as Luigi. So why is Wario considered the better character?
Guilhe
Smash Ace
I agree with PrinceMarthX. Besides Wario depends heavily on his aerial game and Luigi has a good ground game as well. So Luigi has more approach options.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Probably because Wario's aerial mobility is just that awesome.
1) Luigi has a better airgame against opponents with short range airials (like Wario). But when it comes to moving around opponents airials that have more range than you do and counter attacking them, Wario is much better at that.
2) Luigi's cyclone is a better approach but worse as a recovery.
3) Except for the bike parts, no he doesn't. But he has a great offensive and shield pressure game and can work around projectiles easily.
4) Upsmash and down smash are much better than Wario's (but we have a long boost smash). Wario's Fsmash is amazing and has super armor though.
5) G&W backair says hi.
6) But Wario Waft is much easier to land. And 3/4 waft kills from around 60%. Full waft does 42% damage.
That's how I see it anyways.
Snail
Smash Lord
Wario has bite. That's why.
Also, people actually play him, unlike Luigi...
Also, people actually play him, unlike Luigi...
PrinceMarthX
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 258
Better for racking up damage but Luigi's is better for killing out of nowhere. It also makes juggling Luigi a lot harder since its priority will stop almost any normal attack.
Did all the Sonic mains switch to Luigi or something?
Luigi's results do not reflect him being better than Wario, so this debate is extremely pointless.
Snail
Smash Lord
Meh, Luigi's results don't reflect him being better than Captain Falcon either. Although I agree this debate is pointless because theory doesn't matter in real matches.
M.K
Level 55
Luigi isn't bad per-se, but many characters just outrank him slightly, and the cumulative out-ranking causes him to fall into the hole of forgetfulness.
PrinceMarthX
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
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I was never a Sonic main and tournament results don't mean everything because they favor the most used characters. Anybody that's good with Luigi can tell you that he's severely underrated.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
It must be just me but you seem to be somewhat biased against Sonic mains?
Since frankly the comment was quite unnecessary.
@princemarth:Ignore the sonic comment.
Then go out and place in some tournies for god sakes, because that's what the tier list is also based on, not just theory. Right now bottom of mid is probably the best you can hope for (and that's quite a stretch).
It's called a joke... Basically was making fun of the "But my character is much better than you're all saying!" insistence that Sonic (And Yoshi, too, forgot them) mains pressed on with. Why so serious?
Anybody who is good with any character can do well with them, but that doesn't mean the character is good. I'm thinking Neo with Roy here.
KingK
Smash Apprentice
Also, doesn't DeDeDe (a very popular tournament character) totally own Luigi with chain grabs? Wario has problems with grab-release near the edge, but I don't think it's as bad as that.
Yes he does. But he owns Wario too, so that wouldn't be so decisive.
FishkeeperTimmay!
Smash Ace
Not on the same level. DDD grab out-ranges most of Luigi's moves, save the fireball. Luigi doesn't have the aerial mobility to compensate for it like Wario does. So, he can't approach, and the Waddledees have greater range than the fireball, so he can't camp either. Luigi is boned either way.
Lastly, one grab on Luigi = death, whilst one grab on Wario equals ~20 damage and an edge-guard attempt.
DDD alone probably keeps Luigi out of winning tournaments.
Sweet, he doesn't know it yet.
Bullsh*t, tripping is the only thing that can stop a Dedede chaingrab.
People are seriously thinking that Luigi is better than Wario now?
Really?
Allow me to address your points one by one.
1. Luigi is NOT better in the air. Although his priority is great, Wario's moves come out just as quickly and have MORE priority. They can also actually link into each other rather than just knocking the opponent away, like Luigi's attacks.
2. While Luigi Cyclone is a godly approach, Wario has enough air speed that he can just approach from the air, where fewer projectiles can hit him. Also, Wario Bike isn't really used for approaches since it gets saved for recovery.
3. Luigi may as well not have a projectile as well, since it's slow and has limited range - in other words, it can't be spammed, which is everything in Brawl. The only thing it's useful for is approaches, and that's pretty redundant with the Cyclone.
4. Yes, Luigi's smashes are stronger, but Wario's come out almost instantly, and fsmash has super armor frames.
5. Like someone said, there are far more broken aerials. I would say that Wario's air game far outperforms Luigi's.
6. Because fire jump punch is definitely as easy to land as Wario waft, mirite? Also, half-waft kills well and doesn't take that much time to charge.
@ Thiocyanide: I've noticed that you base pretty much everything on tourney results, without regard to character popularity or matchups. Why is that? Not a criticism, just curious.
Really?
Allow me to address your points one by one.
1. Luigi is NOT better in the air. Although his priority is great, Wario's moves come out just as quickly and have MORE priority. They can also actually link into each other rather than just knocking the opponent away, like Luigi's attacks.
2. While Luigi Cyclone is a godly approach, Wario has enough air speed that he can just approach from the air, where fewer projectiles can hit him. Also, Wario Bike isn't really used for approaches since it gets saved for recovery.
3. Luigi may as well not have a projectile as well, since it's slow and has limited range - in other words, it can't be spammed, which is everything in Brawl. The only thing it's useful for is approaches, and that's pretty redundant with the Cyclone.
4. Yes, Luigi's smashes are stronger, but Wario's come out almost instantly, and fsmash has super armor frames.
5. Like someone said, there are far more broken aerials. I would say that Wario's air game far outperforms Luigi's.
6. Because fire jump punch is definitely as easy to land as Wario waft, mirite? Also, half-waft kills well and doesn't take that much time to charge.
@ Thiocyanide: I've noticed that you base pretty much everything on tourney results, without regard to character popularity or matchups. Why is that? Not a criticism, just curious.
PrinceMarthX
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 258
No, Luigi's attacks have more priority.
It's not that slow and it can be spammed.
Luigi's come out just as fast. The only advantage Wario has in smashes is that his forward smash has super armor. Luigi's can kill much quicker by angeling them up. An up angled forward smash is even faster too.
And you would be wrong. Luigi controls the air a lot better than Wario. Wario is only better at approaching because of his speed and ability to quickly pull back if there's danger. Once the fighting has started, Luigi is on top because his aerials are quicker and have tons of proriority. Forward air, down air are very quick with no lag. Neutral air can kill at 110% or 120% (depending how high you are) and if doesn't kill them it sends up directly upward which creates for easy juggling.
It is when you opponent creates an opening by missing an attack or you sidestepping it.
There's a lot of Luigi ignorance going around. Perhaps that's why he's so underused.
Xeze
Smash Ace
That's true, but Wario's fsmash has short range and some ending lag, which can leave him vulnerable.
Turbo Ether
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2006
- Messages
- 3,601
Luigi's aerials unquestionably have more priority. That's pricely why Luigi vs Wario favors Luigi 65/36 according to the Wario matchup thread.
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