Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ROOOOY!]

Wario > Luigi approaching in the air
Luigi > Wario defensively in the air.

Yeah? It's the fact that Luigi has no decent approach on the ground either and arguably the worst projectile in the game that makes him a far lesser version of wario.

 

[Adapt]

Time to create a diversion

I'm creating a list from the bottom up. Let's see how this goes

Bottom: Jiggs, Link, Ganon, CF

I think most can agree with this... all of these characters have been beaten severely with the nerf bat​

Low: Lucas, Sonic, Ness, Mario, Sheik, Ike, PT, Samus, Yoshi, Bowser

This is more iffy, I really don't want to put some of these here because they look like they may have potential, but so far they just aren't showing it with tourney results.
​

Low-Mid: Peach, Zelda, ZSS, Wolf, Fox, Luigi

Some of the low tier can probably join this group... Ness, Lucas, Sonic, or Mario. They seem to have so much going for them, but nothing to back it up. Luigi could possibly drop as well, but he has great matchups iirc.​

High-Mid: Olimar, DK, ICs, Kirby, Pikachu, Pit, TL

This tier always seems to change the most... Peach could come up here maybe, but I dunno for sure. Olimar might move up and DK maybe as well. Toon Link may also be dropped to low -mid tier
​

High: Wario, ROB, Lucario, Diddy
Top: Snake, GaW, DDD, Marth, Falco
God: MK

Need I really discuss these?



Summary:

God: MK
Top: Snake, GaW, DDD, Marth, Falco
High: Wario, ROB, Lucario, Diddy
High-Mid: Olimar, DK, ICs, Kirby, Pikachu, Pit, TL
Low-Mid: Peach, Zelda, ZSS, Wolf, Fox, Luigi
Low: Lucas, Sonic, Ness, Mario, Sheik, Ike, PT, Samus, Yoshi, Bowser
Bottom: Jiggs, Link, Ganon, CF


Hmm... It's different than when I try to create it from the top down lol

 

[Xeze]

Yeah? It's the fact that Luigi has no decent approach on the ground either and arguably the worst projectile in the game that makes him a far lesser version of wario.

excuse me, but I disagree. Luigi's fireball is highly spammable and his Luigi Cyclone is great for ground approaches.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Not really since Luigi cannot erally follow up the cyclone easily.
the fireballs are spammable but are rather slow in movement with poor range.

 

[LuigiKing]

Prince Marth is doing a great job explaining what I TRY to explain to tourny ranking whores. And Luigi's air game is recognizably better than Wario's, anyone who has even watched vids of Void play should know that. I personally think Luigi should be in high tier, if we were to create a list based solely off a characters potential, but alas, since no one plays Luigi, he CANNOT win tournaments. I would like to see the number of players factored into a tier list, even though it would probably just skew it the other way. Point being, if you think Luigi has an aweful projectile, you're wrong. If you think he has a good projectile, you're also wrong. He is an outstanding character and is near impossible to combo. Good day =/

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

He is an outstanding character and is near impossible to combo. Good day =/

Dude, he can't compete with high tier. The other characters in there are just... better. Why? Because they can do both ground and aerial combat, they can also defend a lot better. Characters without flexibility can not compete at a high level. Because Luigi doesn't have a good ground game, can't shield grab for crap, and has arguably the worst projectile in the game, he lacks that required flexibility.

However, he murders that other chunk from upper and down. He murders them, really. But he sucks against the members of the cast that matter, simply put.

 

[gantrain05]

Dude, he can't compete with high tier. The other characters in there are just... better. Why? Because they can do both ground and aerial combat, they can also defend a lot better. Characters without flexibility can not compete at a high level. Because Luigi doesn't have a good ground game, can't shield grab for crap, and has arguably the worst projectile in the game, he lacks that required flexibility.

However, he murders that other chunk from upper and down. He murders them, really. But he sucks against the members of the cast that matter, simply put.

i lol hard at this reply, luigi has a fine ground game, and saying that you need both ground and air game to compete is ********, i'd love to see a snake win a tourney using those totally awesome arials of his. oh and then theres those characters who are ranked so high simply because they have one technique such as a chaingrab that gives them an instant advantage to about any character they face, regardless of how ****ty the rest of their game is, (im lookin at you DDD)

 

[ROOOOY!]

i lol hard at this reply, luigi has a fine ground game, and saying that you need both ground and air game to compete is ********, i'd love to see a snake win a tourney using those totally awesome arials of his. oh and then theres those characters who are ranked so high simply because they have one technique such as a chaingrab that gives them an instant advantage to about any character they face, regardless of how ****ty the rest of their game is, (im lookin at you DDD)

I loled hard at this too :')
Luigi does not have a good ground game. Smashes are fast and semi-strong, but they lack range. Tilts are generally bad other than u-tilt which starts aerial combos, the area Luigi doesn't actually suck in. F-tilts bad, and going for the Dtilt trip to Rocket Pawnch is just being hopeful, you'll get punished for doing a dtilt and them not tripping more often than not. His grounded specials are pretty poor too, Side B is useless if you're playing someone with a brain. Fireballs have slow movement and bad range. Luigi Cyclone is alright, though it's hard to follow up from it because of it's strange knockback. Rocket Pawnch is fine if you can get it to hit and it's kind of hard to set up, do a poor one that does 1% and you'll get kicked around for it.
That and he has the issue of approaching, as comical as his dash attack is it's pretty useless. I can't think of any ways to approach really from the ground, so I wait for them to and then do retreating/advancing bairs, depending on what character I'm against.
Snake's Bair and Uair are actually good ¬_¬. So's Dair, to a lesser extent.
And Dedede has more going for him than his grab game that's for sure.

 

[Browny]

Low: Lucas, Sonic, Ness, Mario, Sheik, Ike, PT, Samus, Yoshi, Bowser

This is more iffy, I really don't want to put some of these here because they look like they may have potential, but so far they just aren't showing it with tourney results.
​

Low-Mid: Peach, Zelda, ZSS, Wolf, Fox, Luigi

Some of the low tier can probably join this group... Ness, Lucas, Sonic, or Mario. They seem to have so much going for them, but nothing to back it up. Luigi could possibly drop as well, but he has great matchups iirc.​

...

why dont you actually check the tourney results thread first

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ignorance is too common.

 

[Adapt]

I do check the ranking list, and a lot, so don't insult me.

I guess I should have treated Sonic as a special case because I have seen how Sonic Mains can be...

Sonic is a difficult character to place. He has some cool techniques, and some tourney results, but I have looked all over and have yet to see any character board complain about sonic. His matchups are a lot of evens, not a large amount of advantageous matchups. Also, notice certain characters on my list happen to be about 3-4 behind their rank on the tourney list. Sonic is one, my main ZSS is another. They had to move down to make up for other characters like TL, Zelda, and Luigi.

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

i lol hard at this reply, luigi has a fine ground game, and saying that you need both ground and air game to compete is ********, i'd love to see a snake win a tourney using those totally awesome arials of his. oh and then theres those characters who are ranked so high simply because they have one technique such as a chaingrab that gives them an instant advantage to about any character they face, regardless of how ****ty the rest of their game is, (im lookin at you DDD)

I lol'd at this reply, Luigi's ground game doesn't compare in anyway to the better characters in the game. Saying that need both ground and air games to compete is perfectly logical. I've seen how Snake can use his air game to KO people, just like the rest of his moves. Oh, and then there those characters who are ranked so high simply because they have one technique such as a chain-grab, that supplements all of their above average capabilities, and covers their few weaknesses. (IM LOOKING AT YOU DDD)


Now, down to seriousness here.

Lugi only has two... options on the ground. U-tilt, and The Tornado. Both ironically set up for aerials the best. However, both of them pretty much suck when compared to the bevy of options that the high tiers have.

No character in the high tier has a below average capability. The ONLY characters who can be accused of this is Falco and Olimar, who have below average recoveries. But, in a game where your DI essentially decides if you recover or not, its not that significant. Snakes air-game isn't BAD, its merely worse in comparison to his ground game. Notice how Snakes STILL kill with U-airs, B-airs and D-airs? Ever been hit by a Nair? It does over 20!

And DDD, just wow. You are one ignorant player. DDD has weight, power, recovery, range, speed, AND a projectile. His chain-grab just made him broken. He was already "good" to begin with.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Going for the Dtilt trip to Rocket Pawnch is just being hopeful,

Jab, jab, downtilt. 33% chance of causing them to trip. You can do the down tilt as quickly as Luigi does his third AAA strike

Side B is useless if you're playing someone with a brain.

Green missile is mainly used for recovery but if you opponent lacks a projectile, it can be useful in certain situations, as long as you use it intelligently.

Luigi Cyclone is alright, though it's hard to follow up from it because of it's strange knockback

What strange knock back? The final hits knocks them up. Anytime the opponent is in the air, they're on Luigi's turf

Rocket Pawnch is fine if you can get it to hit and it's kind of hard to set up

It's not that hard to set up

Jab, jab, fire punch

Jab, jab, downtilt (if trip), fire punch

fire punch out of a shield

Side step attack, fire punch

Opponent uses attack with ending lag, run up and fire punch

Fireballs have slow movement and bad range.

Again, fireballs are not that slow. You shouldn't think of his fireballs as a projectile, you should think of has a long ranged attack. The best thing about Luigi's fireballs is that you can quickly toss them in the air to prevent someone from approaching from the air.

I can't think of any ways to approach really from the ground

Luigi's best two approaches are cyclone (only if they're not too far away) and short hopped fireballs.

 

[fkacyan]

Just an FYI, D3 can't CG Luigi, he can only standing infinite grab him.

Not sure why, but hey, Luigi's weird.

 

[ShadowLink84]

if DDD tries to Cg Luigi luigi ends up hitting the ground and sliding away.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

Luigi only has two... options on the ground. U-tilt, and The Tornado.

You forgot down throw, which also knocks them up into the air where you can utilt them several times then follow up with a netural air to send them higher then back air or forward air them, depending on which direction they try to escape. Up smash is another alternative to ultilt for getting them into the air, it has quite a bit more range and a lot of priority.

Luigi's jabs are quicker than every other character but Mario and have a lot of priority. Luigi's forward smash is one of the best in terms of speed/power. An up angled forward smash can start killing at 80%

I don't think many realize the potential he has.

 

[Tenki]

I do check the ranking list, and a lot, so don't insult me.

I guess I should have treated Sonic as a special case because I have seen how Sonic Mains can be...

Sonic is a difficult character to place. He has some cool techniques, and some tourney results, but I have looked all over and have yet to see any character board complain about sonic. His matchups are a lot of evens, not a large amount of advantageous matchups. Also, notice certain characters on my list happen to be about 3-4 behind their rank on the tourney list. Sonic is one, my main ZSS is another. They had to move down to make up for other characters like TL, Zelda, and Luigi.

Part of the reason is that competent Sonic mains are few and far between - there are a handful of very good players that use Sonic (EG, the guys pulling off the tourney results), a couple of people who are competent/decent but need more work with gameplay/matchup knowledge to be better, and like, the countless mass of fanboys who suck with Sonic, so everyone's sort of behind on matchup knowledge with decent Sonic players. And even among the better players, each individual playstyle tends to vary ALOT, so your matchup experience with one person might not apply to another.

For example, last month, in the Ness boards, there was a comment saying that Sonic was really predictable and had no mindgame potential, speed was a disadvantage and Yoyo ***** Sonic. I had a wifi match with said person to bring him up to date on what the playstyle could look like. Recently in Lucas boards, someone was complaining about Sonic and asked how they should deal with it. One of the tips given was to use D-smash often. >_> as if a competent player would run into something like that lol. Or the ZSS vs Sonic thread, all that about stun gun stopping Sonic and [insert move here] nullifying Sonic's approaches? Not exactly lol.

There were a few threads waaaay back, like on Zelda boards about people having trouble with Sonic, but it was just a few people's cry for help because they couldn't handle their scrubby friend who was spamming spindashes and dash attacks.

Oh, more recently, Bowser boards: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181647
------------

PS: Luigi's Jab > Jab > Shoryuken = ;_;

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

You forgot down throw, which also knocks them up into the air where you can utilt them several times then follow up with a netural air to send them higher then back air or forward air them, depending on which direction they try to escape. Up smash is another alternative to ultilt for getting them into the air, it has quite a bit more range and a lot of priority.

Luigi's jabs are quicker than every other character but Mario and have a lot of priority. Luigi's forward smash is one of the best in terms of speed/power. An up angled forward smash can start killing at 80%

I don't think many realize the potential he has.

Sorry, I didn't realize that Luigi was able to land grabs due to his terrible traction. I suppose I HAVE been grabbed a few times on the offense because of that traction. But generally he's a terrible grabber.

Upsmash is good, especially because of his poor traction. I'll give you that.

F-Smash is fast/strong, but has terrible range. Almost all of the high tiered characters have enough range to stay out of it. The notable exception is Wario.

Luigi's jabs are pretty much as effective as anyone else's jabs. Jabs are quick, the difference of a few frames only affects your matchups with a few characters, like Marth or Metaknight. Otherwise, the speed is generally un-needed.

I'm not saying Luigi is crap. I'm merely saying that not on par to characters in the top tiers.

 

[fkacyan]

Part of the reason is that competent Sonic mains are few and far between - there are a handful of very good players that use Sonic (EG, the guys pulling off the tourney results), a couple of people who are competent/decent but need more work with gameplay/matchup knowledge to be better, and like, the countless mass of fanboys who suck with Sonic, so everyone's sort of behind on matchup knowledge with decent Sonic players. And even among the better players, each individual playstyle tends to vary ALOT, so your matchup experience with one person might not apply to another.

For example, last month, in the Ness boards, there was a comment saying that Sonic was really predictable and had no mindgame potential, speed was a disadvantage and Yoyo ***** Sonic. I had a wifi match with said person to bring him up to date on what the playstyle could look like. Recently in Lucas boards, someone was complaining about Sonic and asked how they should deal with it. One of the tips given was to use D-smash often. >_> as if a competent player would run into something like that lol. Or the ZSS vs Sonic thread, all that about stun gun stopping Sonic and [insert move here] nullifying Sonic's approaches? Not exactly lol.

There were a few threads waaaay back, like on Zelda boards about people having trouble with Sonic, but it was just a few people's cry for help because they couldn't handle their scrubby friend who was spamming spindashes and dash attacks.

Oh, more recently, Bowser boards: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181647
------------

PS: Luigi's Jab > Jab > Shoryuken = ;_;

Stungun > Sonic's approach.

The issue is getting it out.

 

[popsofctown]

I lol'd at this reply, Luigi's ground game doesn't compare in anyway to the better characters in the game.

Laughing at someone else in this forum because they have a different opinion from you on an subjective topic is condescending, and rude. "Pizza Hut has the best pizza" "lol you're such a tard, Domino's is obviously superior." That's what it sounds like.
[/QUOTE]

 

[ShadowLink84]

Stungun > Sonic's approach.

The issue is getting it out.

Best poke jost ever!

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I'll go ahead and make my own tier list, It might have some bias and it might suck balls.

Uber Tier:

MK

Top Tier:

Snake
G&W
Marth
Falco
King DDD

High Tier:

ROB
Lucario
Diddy Kong
Wario
Donkey Kong
Captain Olimar


Mid:

Kirby
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Peach
Wolf
Pit
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Zelda
Toon Link

Low:

Ike
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Bowser
Sheik
Ness
Jigglypuff
Yoshi
Link
Samus

Bottom:

Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[DZhou]

So is the general consensus that MK>Snake now?

 

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Laughing at someone else in this forum because they have a different opinion from you on an subjective topic is condescending, and rude. "Pizza Hut has the best pizza" "lol you're such a tard, Domino's is obviously superior." That's what it sounds like.

Read more, post less.

If you had any idea of what was going on, you'd notice I was mocking the post I quoted, because the man was doing exactly what you describe. My rude and condescending behavior merely mirrors his.

However, unlike him, I did post support for WHY I think Luigi's ground game is the way it is. Subjective? That doesn't matter. Subjective thoughts can still be discussed and anyone posting in a forum should be prepared to defend his opinions.

 

[popsofctown]

@fishy: i recant. I didnt see you were just mocking him for doing it first. He shouldnt have done it, that was rude. and im not implying you can't argue with logic and reason, i've just personally been upset with people beginning their arguments with "i laugh at you because i'm smart than you"

@ shy guy
it's a pretty good tier list

I kind of don't like people who say "it's a good tier list but", so i'm not gonna rap off my pet characters and why they should be higher

I like your bottom tier, your uber and your top.

 

[exidid]

I think Olimar should be lowest of high. He has a great camping game and his matchups are good. He has anti-edgeguarding techniques and is just awesome :3

Peach for high middle tier... She is doing better than those two and has a hell of combo options against lots of characters. She can auto-cancel the lag of each one of her aerials and Fair kills well when not overused to rack damage. She is one of the best edguarders and has a good ability to space herself with her Fsmash and Back air. I would even put her high tier.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

So is the general consensus that MK>Snake now?

Yes, probably because more AT's were found for MK and people are getting used to Snake, he might go lower....

@fishy: i recant. I didnt see you were just mocking him for doing it first. He shouldnt have done it, that was rude. and im not implying you can't argue with logic and reason, i've just personally been upset with people beginning their arguments with "i laugh at you because i'm smart than you"

@ shy guy
it's a pretty good tier list

I kind of don't like people who say "it's a good tier list but", so i'm not gonna rap off my pet characters and why they should be higher

I like your bottom tier, your uber and your top.

Thanks, I was thinking of Moving Link, Samus and maybe Yoshi to the bottom tier...

EDIT:Exidid, I swapped Pit with Peach, and I had Olimar in the bottom of high tier.

 

[Nitrix]

ROB deserves to be above Dedede in tiers.

 

[Grunt]

ROB deserves to be above Dedede in tiers.

...when he's doing even worse than Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong?

 

[Adapt]

Luigi's jabs are quicker than every other character but Mario and have a lot of priority.

Squirtle and ZSS have 1 frame jabs... Luigi's jab is not the fastest... nor is Mario's

Part of the reason is that competent Sonic mains are few and far between - there are a handful of very good players that use Sonic (EG, the guys pulling off the tourney results), a couple of people who are competent/decent but need more work with gameplay/matchup knowledge to be better, and like, the countless mass of fanboys who suck with Sonic, so everyone's sort of behind on matchup knowledge with decent Sonic players. And even among the better players, each individual playstyle tends to vary ALOT, so your matchup experience with one person might not apply to another.

Sounds exactly like the spectrum of ZSS players, only without the fanboys... unless you count the really creepy people that thinks she's a sex toy or something

For example, last month, in the Ness boards, there was a comment saying that Sonic was really predictable and had no mindgame potential, speed was a disadvantage and Yoyo ***** Sonic. I had a wifi match with said person to bring him up to date on what the playstyle could look like. Recently in Lucas boards, someone was complaining about Sonic and asked how they should deal with it. One of the tips given was to use D-smash often. >_> as if a competent player would run into something like that lol. Or the ZSS vs Sonic thread, all that about stun gun stopping Sonic and [insert move here] nullifying Sonic's approaches? Not exactly lol.

Very few people play against a decent Sonic, ZSS, Yoshi, Mario, etc very often. How much do you see someone say ZSS is easy to edgehog?

Oh and you can't argue that ZSS can easily stop some of Sonic's approaches... clearly not all, but still some.

 

[exidid]

EDIT:Exidid, I swapped Pit with Peach, and I had Olimar in the bottom of high tier.

Oh! I was just talking in general, not exactly about your list ^.^

 

[adumbrodeus]

Meh, Luigi's results don't reflect him being better than Captain Falcon either. Although I agree this debate is pointless because theory doesn't matter in real matches.

*bolding added


No, theory matters as long as the combatants are good enough to apply it properly. Sure, your assumptions can be wrong, but that certainly doesn't mean that theory itself is wrong.

You just need to apply it properly, and often the triumph of theory over initial practice is seen as the metagame matures.



For example, MK>Snake.

 

[i.E.]

Has link moved up the tier list at all? From what was the early consensus?

He's become a fairly technical character, more than most of the characters in the game. His recovery is still pretty terrible though : /

moved around at all?

 

[Kiwikomix]

Fireball is not that slow and it can be spammed.

Uh, for a projectile, it's extremely slow. Slowest in the game, and very likely the worst.

Luigi's come out just as fast. The only advantage Wario has in smashes is that his forward smash has super armor. Luigi's can kill much quicker by angeling them up. An up angled forward smash is even faster too.

Since when is a Luigi fsmash faster than a Wario fsmash? Look at some frame data or something.

Luigi controls the air a lot better than Wario. Wario is only better at approaching because of his speed and ability to quickly pull back if there's danger.

At least he actually can approach from the air. Luigi's air speed is pitiful.

Once the fighting has started, Luigi is on top because his aerials are quicker and have tons of proriority. Forward air, down air are very quick with no lag. Neutral air can kill at 110% or 120% (depending how high you are) and if doesn't kill them it sends up directly upward which creates for easy juggling.

It doesn't matter unless you can actually land a hit. With Luigi's poor aerial approach options and limited range, that's not too easy.

It is when you opponent creates an opening by missing an attack or you sidestepping it.

Okay. Seriously? ANY attack can be landed if your opponent creates an opening. I could Falcon Punch Bowser for missing an fsmash and that doesn't mean it will happen often. Not to mention that in the case you described, Wario can just fsmash for the kill.

There's a lot of Luigi ignorance going around. Perhaps that's why he's so underused.

So "not agreeing with you" = ignorance, huh? Stop saying preposterous things, comparing characters to others that are obviously better. It's like comparing Lucas to Lucario.
And don't tell me about ignorance, bud. I main Yoshi.

 

[Tenki]

Sounds exactly like the spectrum of ZSS players, only without the fanboys... unless you count the really creepy people that thinks she's a sex toy or something

Very few people play against a decent Sonic, ZSS, Yoshi, Mario, etc very often. How much do you see someone say ZSS is easy to edgehog?

Oh and you can't argue that ZSS can easily stop some of Sonic's approaches... clearly not all, but still some.

lol @ ZSS fanboy comment[color=#FF000].[/color]

Yeah, each ZSS kinda differs in style ;__;

When I did have wifi, I got to play some friendlies with Snakeee. Strangely enough, I never really thought to edgehog him (that's how non-apparent he made the tether recovery lol).

I just went for stagespikes and Fsmash kills, but edgehogging really didn't come to mind, hahaa

Sometimes, other ZSS players I met would gimp themselves and use up-B instantly after getting knocked slightly under the ledge

 

[adumbrodeus]

Uh, for a projectile, it's extremely slow. Slowest in the game, and very likely the worst.

speed isn't really the issue here, it's control.

Speed is useful, but the important thing is it acts independently once launched..

Since when is a Luigi fsmash faster than a Wario fsmash? Look at some frame data or something.

since always...

Wario's f-smash is considerably slower but has super armor frames until it's hitbox comes out.

Okay. Seriously? ANY attack can be landed if your opponent creates an opening. I could Falcon Punch Bowser for missing an fsmash and that doesn't mean it will happen often. Not to mention that in the case you described, Wario can just fsmash for the kill.

Not... really. Different attacks need larger openings. You wouldn't see a marth player punishing everything with his 10 frame start-up fsmash. But you will see him punishing a lot with his 4 frame start-up over-b.

Different opening sizes mean different attacks are useful. Sure, you an do just about anything off a whiffed bowser f-smash, but that doesn't mean that any attack you use can punish just about anything else.


Luigi's up-b in general doesn't require much of an opening.

 

[ShadowLink84]

or you can jab to ^B

 

[Kiwikomix]

Luigi's up-b in general doesn't require much of an opening.

Granted, but it requires Luigi to be in a position where he's right on top of the enemy, which isn't where he performs at his best. Although it has an almost instant startup, its chance of hitting is pretty poor. And what if you don't sweetspot it? Then you're the one that gets punished. Wario's waft is a lot less likely to be punished since it has some range and propels him far away from the opponent.

 

[PrinceMarthX]

It doesn't matter unless you can actually land a hit. With Luigi's poor aerial approach options and limited range, that's not too easy.

Your post reeks of hyperbole. You honestly believe it's difficult for Luigi to land hits? You speak as if his hit boxes were 1 pixel. Luigi has trouble approaching but because of his priority and speed, opponents have trouble fighting him in the air. You approach him from the air and he'll meet you with a quicker attack that overides yours. And he because of his attack speed, he'll hit you again immediately after. Very few characters can match him in the air. His approaches are only weak if they're a good distance away. If they're only a few steps away then his air movement speed is irrelevant.

So "not agreeing with you" = ignorance, huh?

No. Not knowing what you're talking about = ignorance. For example you said Wario's air attacks have more priority, which they don't. That's ignorance.

 

[Yonder]

You forgot down throw, which also knocks them up into the air where you can utilt them several times then follow up with a netural air to send them higher then back air or forward air them, depending on which direction they try to escape. Up smash is another alternative to ultilt for getting them into the air, it has quite a bit more range and a lot of priority.

Luigi's jabs are quicker than every other character but Mario and have a lot of priority. Luigi's forward smash is one of the best in terms of speed/power. An up angled forward smash can start killing at 80%

I don't think many realize the potential he has.

I agree with those points, but I think a few people have faster jabs that Luigi.

His foward smash is one of the best with the speed/power.

Yes, people don't realize his potential he has, maybe a pro Luigi will hit the tourneys, and show us his real skills, i'd help, but the tourneys are all too far away.

Luigi is an upper middle character in my opinion, I could say the very bottom of high tier, but that might be pushing it.