Official BBR Tier List v7

[Browny]

No character ALWAYS loses. Statistically I don't even think that's possible. You don't do anything significant. The character is worthless. There is nothing valuable about the gameplay in terms of entertainment or appreciation of high level play. You can say if it's not broke don't fix it, but LOL nobody's winning significant events or money. So if you're goal is to not win, and annoy people then you have accomplished your job.

Even if you are a good player, which you are it doesn't matter because essentially you throw away all hope you have of achieving anything in this game other than mediocrity and the fandom of your other mediocre/garbage character fanboys.

The character is essentially synonymous with being masochistic. You literally choose to suck at something you spend hours and hours putting hard effort into, with very little hope of relative success in addition to the hate of your peers. It doesn't matter if people don't know how to approach you or not, relatively that makes it more worthless as it shows the self acceptance that the character is a gimmick in itself. I'm not gonna even both looking at the youtube link, it's probably you vs some random mid/high level player with half a name for being good and a poor soul.

Your argument is as worthless as your character.




Like, if I can not play a yoshi main, let alone in bracket for like 2+ years and still beat you solidly with delta coaching you I doubt any amount of salt will make you place better.

When you want to play with the big boys and pick up metaknight, give me a shoutout. Just not on aib, it'll probably crash and I'll never see it.

You know what this all reminds me of...

People who think the world is so simple, and that they are entitled to nice things for no reason other than the fact they exist, and ***** and moan because they cant have them.

Yoshis a bad character, we get it, but what sort of game would you have if it wasnt for the variety of non-viable characters? Deal with what youve ****ing got; a game with 37 characters of various degrees of viability. Youre not some visionary who knows that low tier mains wont place well and id think its insulting to them that you put words in their mouth about how delusional they are. If you want your perfect game where the only characters available are all perfectly viable, then go and create it, and shut the **** up about the masses of people who play characters because they like them. Fact is you arent going to change brawl no matter what you say and you can prove to low tier mains how pointless their efforts are, they made their decision based on a hell of a lot more thought process than a few posts from you, 5 years on.

If they dont place well, who cares?
If they think their character is good, but its actually not, why do you give a ****?
If everyone in this thread subscribes to your way of thinking, that wont make brawl the slightest bit more competitive. Choosing metaknight wont solve anything. Characters being naturally bad forces the players to be more inventive and actually think more. Unless your idea of a perfectly balanced fighting game is pressing up-b when the enemy gets near.

Whilst I agree in the sense that everyone should just choose MK as I've been saying to people for a while, mostly to annoy them, im not going around parading that my way of thinking is the only way of thinking and anyone who disagrees is stupid, which is basically how youre coming across with your hatred of yoshi. people should all choose MK because that way no one would complain about 'imbalance' and the ******** rulesets which either give him massive advantages, or nerf everyone else.

Im probably going all over the place here, but your post really annoyed me. Yoshi, and 36 other characters are playable and if you dont like it, then make your own game. berating them for choosing a low tier main doesnt impress anyone. I seriously dont understand the purpose of your post. All it looks like to me is

"Haha people are so stupid for doing things they want to do"
"If everyone listened to me because im such a genius, brawl would be ultra competitive"

Which of course is pointless because that will NEVER happen. It seems 99.99% of players are capable of knowing low tiers are bad without resorting to similar condescension from you in this thread. Ultimately, you may be 100% right, but it wont change ANYTHING and the only outcome you have achieved is pissing people off. Congrats, you annoyed kids on the internet. surely that was worth your effort.

 

[Orion*]

Nothing compared to Metaknight.
Why do you care? Does yika get under your skin that much?

Yika ironically went MK on me xD

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The guy I practice with most of the time mains Yoshi and I have been thinking what Orion is saying here for months by the way. He's so unfun to play against. Egg egg egg egg egg pivot grab reverse side b run away egg egg egg egg. There's nothing interesting about it and Yoshi can't even reliably with with this strategy, it's just all he's got.

Yoshi mains should be put into a box and hurled into the sun. (<3 you ngfc)

 

[Orion*]

People who think the world is so simple, and that they are entitled to nice things for no reason other than the fact they exist, and ***** and moan because they cant have them.

LMAO

pulling randomness from the dark depths
it's cool

Yoshis a bad character, we get it, but what sort of game would you have if it wasnt for the variety of non-viable characters? Deal with what youve ****ing got; a game with 37 characters of various degrees of viability. Youre not some visionary who knows that low tier mains wont place well and id think its insulting to them that you put words in their mouth about how delusional they are. If you want your perfect game where the only characters available are all perfectly viable, then go and create it, and shut the **** up about the masses of people who play characters because they like them. Fact is you arent going to change brawl no matter what you say and you can prove to low tier mains how pointless their efforts are, they made their decision based on a hell of a lot more thought process than a few posts from you, 5 years on.

please read instead of being ignorant and then writing an essay

i don't care about the tier of the character

If they dont place well, who cares?

Please read

If they think their character is good, but its actually not, why do you give a ****?

pls

If everyone in this thread subscribes to your way of thinking, that wont make brawl the slightest bit more competitive.

omg

Choosing metaknight wont solve anything. Characters being naturally bad forces the players to be more inventive and actually think more. Unless your idea of a perfectly balanced fighting game is pressing up-b when the enemy gets near.

successful yoshi main strat being the same since 2008
-> low tiers are more creative

Whilst I agree in the sense that everyone should just choose MK as I've been saying to people for a while, mostly to annoy them, im not going around parading that my way of thinking is the only way of thinking and anyone who disagrees is stupid, which is basically how youre coming across with your hatred of yoshi.

like real talk i can't tell if you genuinely don't understand my point, or if you don't understand it and your trolling

people should all choose MK because that way no one would complain about 'imbalance' and the ******** rulesets which either give him massive advantages, or nerf everyone else.

the fact that you wrote this much, with none of it applying to what i said is hilarious. but I will entertain you with the fact that you could literally ban, MK, along with ICs the next runner up in making characters unviable. And remove all infinites and CGs from the game. and my point would still hold.

Im probably going all over the place here, but your post really annoyed me. Yoshi, and 36 other characters are playable and if you dont like it, then make your own game. berating them for choosing a low tier main doesnt impress anyone. I seriously dont understand the purpose of your post. All it looks like to me is

"Haha people are so stupid for doing things they want to do"
"If everyone listened to me because im such a genius, brawl would be ultra competitive"

pls read, im actually serious

Which of course is pointless because that will NEVER happen. It seems 99.99% of players are capable of knowing low tiers are bad without resorting to similar condescension from you in this thread. Ultimately, you may be 100% right, but it wont change ANYTHING and the only outcome you have achieved is pissing people off. Congrats, you annoyed kids on the internet. surely that was worth your effort.

you are probably more mad at being ******** and misreading my post than I actually am at yoshi.

edit:
the best part about this is I get to troll you, while being serious it's beautiful

edit2:
browny thank you for making me laugh multiple times today

 

[TheReflexWonder]

look at the +1 vs the +2s mk has on the chart. Wario clearly is in the difficulty of a +1. 6:4 is my ratio for numbers, but as far as +1/2 goes it's more a +1 than a +2.

The fact that other characters might be labeled incorrectly doesn't mean that Wario vs. Meta Knight isn't a moderate advantage for Meta Knight.

That said, even with what you said, I still think you're wrong. Literally every character in -1 territory on the matchup chart has a means of reasonable stage control or can outpoke Meta Knight in some situations. Waft, while powerful, still requires the Meta Knight main to mess up and let you in in the first place. Other than that, Wario's everything loses to most of his moveset, so you have to be in a position where he's not sending a move at you in the first place.

I don't see how this is any easier than Pit or Lucario against Meta Knight. The only really substantial thing he has over them is a potential hard read with strong Waft (which shouldn't happen, since Meta Knight players can just plank it out) and the ability to recover easily. Technically having a KO opportunity at a specific part of the game and being able to recover when sent out don't mean much when you have no reliable means of damaging the opponent.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Yoshi is enjoyable to play as and my favorite character. :3 I do find it funny that such a bad character annoys people though xD

Also what do you mean win solidly I'm pretty sure it went to last stock each time and that's def not solid for a +3 mu.

 

[Orion*]

pit/lucario dont have the mobility/reward/mixups that wario has

at a frame perfect game, wario doesn't have means to damage mk no, but like. that's so impractical to the point of theory bros that you might as well say ICs can ps or pivot grab everything and +4 the entire cast.

Wario will get his in most situations, but he has the mobility to weave in and out of MKs range, and the reward for reads to make it worth it when you get hit sometimes. Wario in general is not a priority based character, so stating that his moveset loses is pointless, he's not trying to out prioritize most characters in the game anyway.

edit:

at least raptor can take it well

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The "unattainable theory bros MK/Wario MU" has been reached, though. Didn't Reflex (could've been DMG) mention one MK who was really good at the Wario MU before?

We should be basing the MU off highest current level; even if the majority of MKs suck at the MU.

This is all talking out of my *** though, because I can't be ****ed reading the previous page to verify my claims.

 

[Albert.]

Can I just say that Orion is nearly always right and the rest of you can suck my d|ck?

But also, HI!!! @ DA KID! It's been so long since I read one of your posts, how you been dude?

 

[Orion*]

The "unattainable theory bros MK/Wario MU" has been reached, though. Didn't Reflex (could've been DMG) mention one MK who was really good at the Wario MU before?

We should be basing the MU off highest current level; even if the majority of MKs suck at the MU.

This is all talking out of my *** though, because I can't be ****ed reading the previous page to verify my claims.

DMG said it "felt" that way. Not that it was. No offense to DMG but dojo is also a significantly better player than him, MK or not.
edit: grrr cant find the post to quote it but fairly confident on my memory
edit2: me and DMG also agreed on the same ration LMAO

There is no MK that I have seen literally even capable of frame perfect walling like that, because human reaction time simply doesn't allow it. There are situations you are forced to read/guess and 50/50, MK will have a few frames advantage, so he will win most of the time but not all of the time. Warios weight allows that risk reward factor to skew the MU into something. If anything results, videos and personal experience tend to show that wario can compete with MK and isn't just outright countered.

I watch a lot of vids and have yet to see just like wario completely shut out with no options and bodied at a top level without being utterly outskilled.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

pit/lucario dont have the mobility/reward/mixups that wario has

at a frame perfect game, wario doesn't have means to damage mk no, but like. that's so impractical to the point of theory bros that you might as well say ICs can ps or pivot grab everything and +4 the entire cast.

Wario will get his in most situations, but he has the mobility to weave in and out of MKs range, and the reward for reads to make it worth it when you get hit sometimes. Wario in general is not a priority based character, so stating that his moveset loses is pointless, he's not trying to out prioritize most characters in the game anyway.

Pit and Lucario also have a ground game that can stuff Meta Knight's moves and threaten his potential landing, as well as moves that actively threaten Tornado in a realistic situation. Mobility doesn't mean anything if you can't get in or scare the opponent with it. Wario doesn't really have mix-ups in this matchup outside of throwing yourself at the opponent and hoping you guessed that he used the one or two moves that allow you to D-Air, F-Tilt, whatever. Meta Knight's bad horizontal aerial mobility doesn't mean much, since anytime it comes into play, Meta Knight can just glide or Tornado to the ledge/ground with little trouble against Wario.

It's not about being frame-perfect; it's about staying close to the ground and keeping moves out while mixing it up. You NEVER have to move forward as Meta Knight, and Meta Knight has plenty of time to react with a bunch of strong, useful options once Wario lucks out with an airdodge or landing, so, again, Wario has to make two hard reads to do ANYTHING to Meta Knight. It's just how well he spaces Wario as a character--That's why the range difference is so potent.

 

[tekkie]

itt metaknights call other characters boring

it's like alice in wonderland or something

 

[Tesh]

Yoshi and Metaknight don't have to be boring, its just optimal.

olimar however just cant ever be any fun

 

[da K.I.D.]

mk is actually a fun interesting character

but hes kind of like Adele. where you first hear her song on the radio and you kinda liked it, but then they play it literally every half hour to the point where you cant stand it anymore.

thats how mk is.

 

[infiniteV115]

olimar however just cant ever be any fun

Not true.
Olimar ditto. 1 purple Pikmin only. SideB suddenly becomes the funniest move in the game.

 

[Tesh]

As far as projectile battles, TL dittos are the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQd4an38pFY

If they would have just given olimar some more unique and diverse options he wouldn't be so boring.

 

[Cassio]

I used to enjoy watching Polt play and I believe he had pretty consistent success, granted that was quite awhile ago now.

 

[Scatz]

Cool... We get insulted for using a character we like.

 

[Delta-cod]

No character ALWAYS loses. Statistically I don't even think that's possible. You don't do anything significant. The character is worthless. There is nothing valuable about the gameplay in terms of entertainment or appreciation of high level play. You can say if it's not broke don't fix it, but LOL nobody's winning significant events or money. So if you're goal is to not win, and annoy people then you have accomplished your job.

Even if you are a good player, which you are it doesn't matter because essentially you throw away all hope you have of achieving anything in this game other than mediocrity and the fandom of your other mediocre/garbage character fanboys.

The character is essentially synonymous with being masochistic. You literally choose to suck at something you spend hours and hours putting hard effort into, with very little hope of relative success in addition to the hate of your peers. It doesn't matter if people don't know how to approach you or not, relatively that makes it more worthless as it shows the self acceptance that the character is a gimmick in itself. I'm not gonna even both looking at the youtube link, it's probably you vs some random mid/high level player with half a name for being good and a poor soul.

Your argument is as worthless as your character.

When you want to play with the big boys and pick up metaknight, give me a shoutout. Just not on aib, it'll probably crash and I'll never see it.

Yo dude, it's not that serious. O.o

The guy I practice with most of the time mains Yoshi and I have been thinking what Orion is saying here for months by the way. He's so unfun to play against. Egg egg egg egg egg pivot grab reverse side b run away egg egg egg egg. There's nothing interesting about it and Yoshi can't even reliably with with this strategy, it's just all he's got.

Yoshi mains should be put into a box and hurled into the sun. (<3 you ngfc)

Your post is invalidated because Egg Roll is bad.

 

[_Kain_]

It is that serious

**** yoshi, he's boring as ****

 

[~Firefly~]

Because yoshi doesn't win.

The character and all of it's mains essentially enjoy spending 548043 hours making the game suck, to still lose. The worst part being if they get like 1 tournament win vs a decent player, they feel so good about themselves, whereas it's more likely the opponent probably opted to lose rather than commit suicide.

Olimar, falco whatever camp and it's not so bad because I feel like they are actually going to do something with camping. Yoshi just sucks the fun out, and still loses. Theres no point in the character.

**** yoshi

As a Yoshi main, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this post because this stuff about spending tons of time on the game only to lose anyway is exactly what's been gradually pushing me to drop the character for a long time now. I've been maining Yoshi for over 3 years, and no matter how hard I try, I can't seem to break placing 3rd-5th in an insignificant region. In fact, the only tournament win I have this year resulted from me having committed to not use Yoshi at all; I used my mediocre pocket DK/Diddy instead. I've placed really poorly at every national I've been to, but more importantly, I can't even win occasionally in my own region despite being more experienced than the players that do win tournaments...mainly because losing to Yoshi gets harder and harder each time you play against him.

The most hilarious part of this is, I've never even really felt any true satisfaction from beating decent players. Every time I travel for smash and get a decent win, I'm not thinking "Man, I really outplayed them!"; I'm thinking "Oh cool, they didn't know the MU and I didn't **** up!" If I beat someone in my own region with Yoshi, it's because they were playing poorly. This is going to seem strange to some, but I feel more satisfaction when I beat the same player with Metaknight or Diddy or something because I know I won by playing at a level of skill they couldn't match, not because they forgot how to deal with my gimmicks.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel that the players that beat me have earned their wins. I just think that if all the time I had put into Yoshi went to a good character instead, I would be doing a lot better than I am now. And I have much respect for the Yoshis that keep pressing on with the character; I just don't think I can do it much longer. I'd much rather win than be a "good Yoshi" (whatever that means).

tl;dr - not all Yoshi mains enjoy losing.

 

[Delta-cod]

>Implying anyone enjoys losing.

Also, ITT: Implying everyone has the same goals for this game.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Pit and Lucario also have a ground game that can stuff Meta Knight's moves and threaten his potential landing, as well as moves that actively threaten Tornado in a realistic situation. Mobility doesn't mean anything if you can't get in or scare the opponent with it. Wario doesn't really have mix-ups in this matchup outside of throwing yourself at the opponent and hoping you guessed that he used the one or two moves that allow you to D-Air, F-Tilt, whatever. Meta Knight's bad horizontal aerial mobility doesn't mean much, since anytime it comes into play, Meta Knight can just glide or Tornado to the ledge/ground with little trouble against Wario.

It's not about being frame-perfect; it's about staying close to the ground and keeping moves out while mixing it up. You NEVER have to move forward as Meta Knight, and Meta Knight has plenty of time to react with a bunch of strong, useful options once Wario lucks out with an airdodge or landing, so, again, Wario has to make two hard reads to do ANYTHING to Meta Knight. It's just how well he spaces Wario as a character--That's why the range difference is so potent.

you obviously know nothing of the pit mk MU if you think pit has any grounded move that can stuff MK's moves and you clearly know nothing if you think pit has realistic options to beat nado. pls stick to talking about characters you know at least SOMETHING about, because wario is way better than pit is vs MK. at least you have waft and super armor fsmash and tires. you know wat pit has against MK? not a god damn thing. and don't even referance earth vs m2k with ****. m2k is sooooooooooo bad for losing to pit. he clearly has never played that MU before

oh ya, lol at pit having a ground game, that's just too good

sit the **** down

 

[Tesh]

but in japan...

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

but in japan nothing. m2k lost rob and pit, does that make MK any less hard for the people who play experianced MKs? **** no

 

[TheReflexWonder]

oh ya, lol at pit having a ground game, that's just too good

Dash Attack is Frame 7 and has the range to at least touch him/his shield. D-Smash is Frame 5, and his other two Smash attacks are Frame 6. Without going into his above-average Jab and somewhat useful tilts, he has it better than a majority of the cast there.

 

[Cassio]

Even if you are a good player, which you are it doesn't matter because essentially you throw away all hope you have of achieving anything in this game other than mediocrity and the fandom of your other mediocre/garbage character fanboys.

The character is essentially synonymous with being masochistic. You literally choose to suck at something you spend hours and hours putting hard effort into, with very little hope of relative success in addition to the hate of your peers.

People play brawl for an enormous variety of reasons, theres no reason to hate-on or assume. Pride in particular can extend well beyond winning.

 

[Delta-cod]

Also, I don't actually put hours and hours of work into this game. I literally only play at tournaments and the occasional time people play Brawl at Riz's house, lol.

I guess if you count the ~hour of serious matches I play per tournament and add them all together I put hours and hours of work into this game.

 

[Z'zgashi]

To me that translates to, when I'm not playing tournament matches or viable characters yoshi is fun/relaxing.

Lmao you know I main Bowser right?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Dash Attack is Frame 7 and has the range to at least touch him/his shield. D-Smash is Frame 5, and his other two Smash attacks are Frame 6. Without going into his above-average Jab and somewhat useful tilts, he has it better than a majority of the cast there.

metaknights tilts (bar utilt) are frame 3, his dsmash is frame 4, his invincible up b is frame 5. and guess wat, all of that combined with his range doesn't give pit ****. you literally have no idea wat the **** you are talking about. btw his tilts don't do **** in that MU. tell you wat, main pit and play against DOJO's, Gnes's, Infinitysmash's, esca's, or any other good metaknight that knows the pit MU and tell me again how pit is so good at combating MK. you are so ignorant right now

edit:

and pit is one of those MUs you could literally just nado and win. it beats arrows and every single other move pit has besides his frame 14 ftilt

 

[TheReflexWonder]

metaknights tilts (bar utilt) are frame 3, his dsmash is frame 4, his invincible up b is frame 5. and guess wat, all of that combined with his range doesn't give pit ****. you literally have no idea wat the **** you are talking about. btw his tilts don't do **** in that MU. tell you wat, main pit and play against DOJO's, Gnes's, Infinitysmash's, esca's, or any other good metaknight that knows the pit MU and tell me again how pit is so good at combating MK. you are so ignorant right now

I could point out the intricacies of the matchup, but I don't really have the time or the energy to explain it. Pit has many more tools than Wario to reliably work magic.

Also, stop being a jerk for its own sake. That's why I can't take your posts seriously.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

don't call me bad when you lost to ryo in less than 2 minutes. **** your edit, i see you *****.

and please do explain in detail. you are so full of **** it blows my mind.

sync plz

edit:

wait let me make some popcorn. this is gonna be good

 

[Kuro~]

Lol. Pit does do better vs mk than wario. imho.

Depending on how much your accounting waft and actually landing it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lol kuro, bad

 

[Kuro~]

M2k lost to earth for 3 reasons

Didn't know how to nado pit right cuz earth nair'd out of every single one.

Wasn't confident in his aggression and follow-up game giving earth more leeway throughout the match.

And 3 earth's reads were just really solid during the set.


Irrelevant to the point at hand.

Just thought i'd point it out. M2k's not bad and he had played both pits and robs b4. He jst let his emotional state interfere and got outplayed.


Edit: Maharba if you're losing to nado you're bad. That's not even half the reason he loses.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I didn't come in here to get yelled at by a troll.

I really hope more people start doing work with Falco.

 

[PMC66]

I think for Yoshi it depends on the matchup he's playing that determines how boring a match is.

For example, Sonic vs Yoshi, Pikachu vs Yoshi, Zamus vs Yoshi, and Peach vs Yoshi Marth vs Yoshi and climbers vs Yoshi i actually quite like those mus

Wario, King Dedede, Olimar, Luigi and Samus are basically like watching paint dry at times (even though i enjoy long matches sometimes vs Wario and Oli and i wreck D3's with him )

 

[DMG]

The "unattainable theory bros MK/Wario MU" has been reached, though. Didn't Reflex (could've been DMG) mention one MK who was really good at the Wario MU before?

We should be basing the MU off highest current level; even if the majority of MKs suck at the MU.

This is all talking out of my *** though, because I can't be ****ed reading the previous page to verify my claims.

Dojo is the best at it, and has the most experience at it. No one escapes his wrath, not even Fiction.

 

[SoulPech]

vs

Forever 10 minutes X_X...every match.

 

[Tesh]

I agree with Maharba, even though his frame data was wrong and he tried to call you out on losing 2-1 to Ryo when the 2nd best player in our region got 2-0d.

Wario and Pit both lose solidly imo, but I think you are overrating pit's tools.