Official BBR Tier List v7

[Tesh]

Masha and Maguro main :wariobrawl:? I thought Masha played :falcobrawl: with a little :sonicbrawl:, and Maguro mained :metaknightbrawl:.

Zinoto and Player-1 are the best American Diddys outside of Gnes (who is inactive) and ADHD.

From what I've seen from them in doubles, they look better than Sky, offense intended. If we are going to bump people down for not maining the character, might want to reconsider reflex too.

If you beat "top by default" then ADHD and Gnes would have to like 100% quit because they have been alot better than Zinoto and P1 have ever been so far. They are both still a long way behind ADHD, so I wouldn't call them top by any other measurement either.

 

[Player-1]

Lol, that was a $1 MM, we trolled everyone making it think it was $100 MM (In the original call out post I made the numbers really big and made a really small decimal point with black font between the 1 and the 0 so I never even called it a $100 MM). Neither of us really cared about the MM that's why you hear the commentators saying "P1 is playing this like it was a friendly or something".

except the RC match, I was about to lose that **** and I have too much pride to lose there in a diddy ditto >



anyway, although I agree Reflex plays the MU a little bit to aggressive than he should be, a full out campy wario isn't the way to play the Diddy MU and I've beaten every Wario that was playing really 'campy'. Based on what I've seen from Abadango his playstyle looks like it might be the best vs Diddy or maybe slightly too defensive, I think a middle ground of what Reflex and what Abandago plays might be the best vs diddy. And I probably do have more credentials than anyone in this MU btw, GA/AL are the Wario states I could name probably like 10 wario mains in these states.





and lol zinoto suks he lost to vex's ddd

 

[Luco]

Hey guys lets talk about kirby, why does he get forgotten all the time?

 

[Jimmyfosho]

because no one does well with him anymore.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Kirby is a character? I kind of feel like his tier list position should just say "Kirby's bair"

 

[MarioNPinkie]

Hey guys lets talk about kirby, why does he get forgotten all the time?

i feel the same about mario lulz

 

[Iota]

Iono, its not much strong than a uair/fsmash at first so it wouldn't really be worth using instead of fsmash out of a banana combo anyway.

I think Masha and Maguro are better than Sky though.

Waft is a good deal stronger than clap at first. Clap usually can't kill till around 140-170%, minute waft would prob kill you from the other side of the stage at that point lol.

I don't disagree with you there on those Warios, but I don't think I've ever seen them play in singles though.

From what I've seen from them in doubles, they look better than Sky, offense intended. If we are going to bump people down for not maining the character, might want to reconsider reflex too.

Why would Reflex co-maining Wario with PT be a consideration for bumping him down? That would seem silly considering his usage of Wario is a lot higher than PT.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I agree with P1 that 100% campy won't work. The only time Wario should be going in though is on a missed attack or a read.

As for Kirby, I feel he's not as great as he could be since he gets outcamped by pretty much every top tier. the few things that save him from falling as low as DK though is he has no unwinnable MUs, he has a few good match ups with the higher tiers (goes slightly even with Diddy and goes even with or might have a slight advantage against Marth just to name a few) and the fact that he destroys almost everybody below him

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

There is a lot of good stuff about Kirby but his approaches are telegraphed and as a result it's easier to camp him than a lot of people initially thought. Like, it's very easy to camp out a lead on Kirby.

Kirby's flowchart is also really predictable. He's going to bair you. So you shield, and so occasionally he'll try to mix up by inhaling you. Whoop-dee-do. I think the only more predictable thing in the game is Ness' legehop fair.

He just has no options when he's behind, it's really silly.

Personally though I'm terrible against the stupid puffball. Like, I know what's coming but my neurons are too old and saggy.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

A lot of kirbys issues boil down to his general move set. Hes got the priority and the damage potential in some throw mix ups, despite that hes got a lack of overall speed on the ground and in the air its pretty easy to keep kirby walled out. What kirby needs is SB4 reboot and a move set/special/grab moves to be redone before he starts moving anywhere on a tier list. He'll generally stay where he is if he stays the same into the next game.

And also what Jebus said, his priority, floatyness and combos options out of grabs or bair keep him from being a an alternate colored male Jigglypuff.

 

[Tesh]

Waft is a good deal stronger than clap at first. Clap usually can't kill till around 140-170%, minute waft would prob kill you from the other side of the stage at that point lol.

I don't disagree with you there on those Warios, but I don't think I've ever seen them play in singles though.



Why would Reflex co-maining Wario with PT be a consideration for bumping him down? That would seem silly considering his usage of Wario is a lot higher than PT.

@ the reflex comment i was just making a point about maguro and masha.

Fresh Uair kills a little later than early waft and fresh uncharged fsmash assuming you hit them on the ground (so exactly right about that since i was talking about banana combos), but it really depends on fall speed and how much closer they were to the blast zones. Waft is the same kill power as uncharged fsmash and isn't significantly stronger than fsmash for another 15-20 seconds. It has the benefit of being usable in the air, but I was talking about banana combos.

 

[Smoom77]

ganon is one of those characters that wario can CG to forever and a kill.

In the last 4 going on 5 years, I have only seen 4 JV 4-stocks, in all of the matches I have ever seen in brawl.

one was M2K vs some scrub I think
one was Smoom's ICs vs some game and watch
one was Some IC player vs some dude playing Olimar that didnt even know how to pull pikmin.

And the last was a Japanese video of a random wario obliterating Dios Ganon

just quoting this because namesearch

 

[bubbaking]

Zinoto and Player-1 are the best American Diddys outside of Gnes (who is inactive) and ADHD.

And I believe ADHD is pretty inactive too...

and lol zinoto suks he lost to vex's ddd

What's wrong with that? Vex's DDD is quite good.

What kirby needs is SB4 reboot and a move set/special/grab moves to be redone before he starts moving anywhere on a tier list. He'll generally stay where he is if he stays the same into the next game.

>Assuming that SSB4 will be very similar to what we've had so far...

 

[Life]

I've JV4'd the level 9 AI before, does that count?

Just a faster Kirby would probably be a success. He'll never be MK tier tho.

 

[Shaya]

never mk tier? All the guy needs is a good anti air and he'd prob be high tier with mk tier being just a few hitbox enlargements away

 

[bubbaking]

>Assuming that chars will be the same in SSB 4 as they were in any previous Smash game.

>Assuming that MK will be in SSB 4.

>Assuming that Kirby will be in SSB 4.

Ftr, Sakurai has announced that there's a possibility that veterans will be cut out of the roster in the next Smash game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

MetaKnight will probably be, as he's Sakurai's favourite character.
Kirby will be there, he's the icon of the franchise.

If anyone were expected to be cut would be Captain Falcon (many years without an FZero game), probably Ness and Lucas (many years without Mother games), and maybe ROB.

Although, he probably said that just because of Snake (Kojima probably finished the license).

 

[bubbaking]

Don't forget Sonic. There haven't been too many good Sonic games lately, although I'd argue the best ones have all been on Nintendo systems (Sonic Advance 1, 2, & 3, Sonic Heroes [yes, it was a good game people], Sonic & the Secret Rings [decent], Sonic Colors, Sonic Unleashed [half of it, lolz ], Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure).

 

[Tesh]

Sonic is wildly popular and they keep pumping out these dumb racing/olympic games so...

 

[DMG]

Wario vs Diddy is fine if you play campy, but it's all circumstancial. Diddy should usually camp regardless, but Wario tends to fall behind if he only camps. I think the best way to describe it is "selective". Wario tends to be better off waiting for an opening from Diddy or some small advantage like space gained, than outright approaching.

I will say though, with a stock lead against Diddy and given a non FD stage you can give him hell by camping him extensively. Like, MY kind of camping lol. Diddy is the kind of character you can eat up time against because even if he can occasionally punish you you can limit it to small hits and usually no killing blows (as an aerial based character that is. MK has a similar strategy, but mostly related to staying near the ledge where banana toss punishes make him grab the edge)

 

[KRDsonic]

I still want mewtwo facts.

 

[DMG]

That day will never come

From Gheb at least

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DMG can you link me to the match on FD where you time out a Lucario?

 

[DMG]

Wasn't me, that was Atomsk vs someone.

And he took the bike thing from me (I think most Wario's did, where you bike and jump in the air specifically to stall time. It's really good and you don't need a specific stage for it to work)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcrXRZwHAnM

Most of my sets with Trela had timeouts when we played. I'd get the stock lead and run around because lucario would be really weak. Won every set but the last one doing that. Lucario vs Wario gets very hard for Lucario in that scenario. VERY hard

 

[bubbaking]

Sonic is wildly popular and they keep pumping out these dumb racing/olympic games so...

Trudat, but Pokemon was even more "wildly popular" and look who got cut: Pichu and Mewtwo! Everyone loved Mewtwo!!!

 

[Tesh]

The newer generations are more popular in their times, pokemon wasn't cut, certain pokemon were cut.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Trudat, but Pokemon was even more "wildly popular" and look who got cut: Pichu and Mewtwo! Everyone loved Mewtwo!!!

Everyone loved them, except the competitive Melee community.
>implying Sakurai would care

To be fair, most things involving Pokémons were not Sakurai's decision, but GameFreak's, including but not limited to Pokémon contained on Pokéballs, Pokémon Trainer, Lucario, and the fact no Pokémon was allowed to change drastically their colors, just slight tone changes and some with added items like Pikachu's hats.

 

[bubbaking]

Are you sure those weren't still Sakurai's decisions?

The newer generations are more popular in their times, pokemon wasn't cut, certain pokemon were cut.

That's almost a good explanation (almost), but it fails to explain why a 2nd gen Pokemon and the most powerful of the 1st gen Pokemon were cut to introduce a whole bunch of 1st gen Pokemon, and starters no less. Mewtwo had two entire movies dedicated to him. Why the heck was he benched for starters, most of which Ash never owned? Like who seriously cares about Jigglypuff? She should have been replaced with Igglybuff.

 

[Luco]

Guys, you wouldn't believe how much this was discussed a while ago. I'm usually not a vet on this thread but based on current facts and stuff i'd say kirbs and MK will stay because Sakurai made the series and he loves them. I dunno where bubba heard sakurai say he might be cutting vets though.

Also I can see the mother boys staying, especially seeing that the developers have shown interest in the mother series of late recently. Check this out. Even Yink is hyped about this.

That said, obviously there's not a lot of info on the game and i'm not gonna pretend to know what's gonna happen, only what I believe will happen with logical conclusions from the available evidence.

Oh but we do know the basic engine (uhh, unsure if i'm remembering the right word lol.) for the game has already been developed. Either they worked really fast or they've already got a template?

Also iirc, Sakurai knows more about 1st gen pokes than anything else. That's why the one recent gen poke we see tends to be rather famous for some reason or another (Pichu was baby form of Pokemon's poster child/pokemon/you know what i mean! Lucario featured in recent movies, etc.)

 

[KRDsonic]

Are you sure those weren't still Sakurai's decisions?



That's almost a good explanation (almost), but it fails to explain why a 2nd gen Pokemon and the most powerful of the 1st gen Pokemon were cut to introduce a whole bunch of 1st gen Pokemon, and starters no less. Mewtwo had two entire movies dedicated to him. Why the heck was he benched for starters, most of which Ash never owned? Like who seriously cares about Jigglypuff? She should have been replaced with Igglybuff.

What does Ash have to do with anything?

 

[Mr. Johan]

As I understand it, Jigglypuff is still wildly popular in Japan. Back in the N64 era she was the second most popular Pokemon, justifying her spot in SSB, and she hasn't really descended that far from grace today.

Pokemon Trainer was brought into Brawl because he and his equivalents technically are the main characters of the game, and with PT being the FRLG trainer, he serves as the representative of Generation III. Him being a redesigned Red also gives him a bit more leeway for being in the game than Brendan or May, due to being more recognizable globally.

As for owning the three starters, it makes sense for the Pokemon Trainer to have a team of Pokemon (otherwise why bother programming him when you could just program another standalone Pokemon), and you'd be hard-pressed to find a more iconic Pokemon team than the Water-Grass-Fire starter trio.

They also add a bit of throwback imo: Gen I is the only generation to contain 3 different versions of the same game, as opposed to two versions + enhanced remake the other generations have, and Squirtle (Blue), Ivysaur (Green), and Charizard (Red) represent each one of them. Sort of a representation to Gen III and Gen I at the same time.

 

[bubbaking]

What does Ash have to do with anything?

Ash and the rest of the anime is the reason Yellow Version was created and is why Pikachu is so popular and was included in the SSB series to begin with. I suspect that Jigglypuff got her fame in a similar fashion (although I believe Puff's male in the series).

Guys, you wouldn't believe how much this was discussed a while ago. I'm usually not a vet on this thread but based on current facts and stuff i'd say kirbs and MK will stay because Sakurai made the series and he loves them. I dunno where bubba heard sakurai say he might be cutting vets though.

Here's the article:
http://www.officialnintendomagazine...ii-u-and-3ds-sakurai-confirms-new-characters/
Upon re-reading it, though, it wasn't actually an announcement but more of a suggestion. However, going by what has already happened in the transition from Melee to Brawl (we lost Roy, Pichu, YL, and Mewtwo), I think it's fairly reasonable to suspect that veterans may be dropped if Sakurai wants to add new characters. I don't think any developers really want another DBZ Budokai: Tenkaichi 3.

Pokemon Trainer was brought into Brawl because he and his equivalents technically are the main characters of the game, and with PT being the FRLG trainer, he serves as the representative of Generation III. Him being a redesigned Red also gives him a bit more leeway for being in the game than Brendan or May, due to being more recognizable globally.

As for owning the three starters, it makes sense for the Pokemon Trainer to have a team of Pokemon (otherwise why bother programming him when you could just program another standalone Pokemon), and you'd be hard-pressed to find a more iconic Pokemon team than the Water-Grass-Fire starter trio.

They also add a bit of throwback imo: Gen I is the only generation to contain 3 different versions of the same game, as opposed to two versions + enhanced remake the other generations have, and Squirtle (Blue), Ivysaur (Green), and Charizard (Red) represent each one of them. Sort of a representation to Gen III and Gen I at the same time.

This explanation makes sense, but at the same time, there are so many flaws with it. Why represent gen III with gen I starters when the game was already deep into gen IV? I think Smash Bros should have been fresh and introduced a new set of starters, since we'd already seen all three gen I starters in various forms multiple times in pokeballs/Saffron City in SSB 64 and SSBM.

As for the W/G/F starter trio, I was just confused as to why Sakurai chose those specific evolutions after there had already been so much obvious influence from the anime (Pika, Pichu, Mewtwo, Goldeen [she was never useless in the games or the manga, so her just flopping around in Smash is a clear reference to the anime], Puff, etc). Those evolutions were never prominent in the anime.

Then again, Sakurai's decisions have never been the easiest to understand.

 

[Luco]

Ash and the rest of the anime is the reason Yellow Version was created and is why Pikachu is so popular and was included in the SSB series to begin with. I suspect that Jigglypuff got her fame in a similar fashion (although I believe Puff's male in the series).



Here's the article:
http://www.officialnintendomagazine...ii-u-and-3ds-sakurai-confirms-new-characters/
Upon re-reading it, though, it wasn't actually an announcement but more of a suggestion. However, going by what has already happened in the transition from Melee to Brawl (we lost Roy, Pichu, YL, and Mewtwo), I think it's fairly reasonable to suspect that veterans may be dropped if Sakurai wants to add new characters. I don't think any developers really want another DBZ Budokai: Tenkaichi 3.



This explanation makes sense, but at the same time, there are so many flaws with it. Why represent gen III with gen I starters when the game was already deep into gen IV? I think Smash Bros should have been fresh and introduced a new set of starters, since we'd already seen all three gen I starters in various forms multiple times in pokeballs/Saffron City in SSB 64 and SSBM.

As for the W/G/F starter trio, I was just confused as to why Sakurai chose those specific evolutions after there had already been so much obvious influence from the anime (Pika, Pichu, Mewtwo, Goldeen [she was never useless in the games or the manga, so her just flopping around in Smash is a clear reference to the anime], Puff, etc). Those evolutions were never prominent in the anime.

Then again, Sakurai's decisions have never been the easiest to understand.

Oh, haha, sorry, I mean vets as in, 'the ones from 64 and melee'. Vets in brawl could be cut, yes. I hope not but it's definitely a possibility.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I say the cut Sonic and call it a day.

 

[bubbaking]

Sonic was more warranted in Brawl then......Captain Olimar, tbh. I mean, he only had two games before Brawl arrived on the scene, and neither one of them was on the Wii.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He isn't a Nintendo character, which automatically makes him less warranted by precedent than everyone except Snake.

 

[pidgezero_one]

ness was unwarranted in smash 64 because he was only in 1 game and it wasn't even on the n64

 

[Grim Tuesday]

With that said, Mother 2 is one of the best games Nintendo has ever created.

 

[bubbaking]

Sonic has been in plenty of Nintendo-exclusive games, though (Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic and the Black Knight, Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood, Sonic Advances 1, 2, & 3, Sonic Battle, Sonic Rush, Sonic Rush Adventure, Sonic Colors, Mario & Sonic sports games, etc). In fact, other than Sonic '06, every Sonic game has been either shared across all the platforms or Nintendo-exclusive. If a character deserves to stay, it's Sonic. If a character deserves to be cut, it's Metal Gear Sony's Snake.

Edit: Sonic's best and most popular recent games were also all Nintendo-exclusive with the exceptions of the shared games Sonic Heroes and Sonic Unleashed.

 

[Tesh]

I could see Snake being cut tbh. Even that next metal gear game is skipping the Wii U so no hope for raiden being in that.

Cutting characters is just...bleh. Why throw away all that work. Didn't they confirm that movesets will be completely revamped this time? Sounds exciting. Maybe Bowser will be good this time.