Official BBR Tier List v7

[infiniteV115]

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are clones because they both suck.

 

[pidgezero_one]

jigglypuff is a kirby clone because holy **** that dsmash

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

Speaking of mewtwo, where is gehb at? Is he ever coming back to answer the mewtwo question?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sonic's MUs are bad because people are still shockingly ignorant about what Sonic can do.
Heck, Wolf players are starting to think they +2 us. It's laughable.

People tend to not care about matchups under ROB.
Even the characters under ROB don't bother with others except for the ones above him.

Spoiler

Wolf:Yoshi -2 for example

 

[ぱみゅ]

Everyone is a clone of everyone because they all have jabs

As usual, MK is an exception.

 

[bubbaking]

Responding to long post with longer post.

Similar characters =/= clones.
In Melee, clone pairs like
-Dr. Mario + Mario
-Fox+Falco
-Marth+Roy
-Link+Young Link
-CF + Ganon
-Pichu + Pikachu

You forgot the Mario Bros.

Wolf is not a 'clone' of anything. Not even close. His entire moveset is fundamentally different from that of both Fox and Falco. Yeah they're all Star Fox chars with lasers and a reflector, but if you look at the rest of their movesets, animations and playstyles you'll see they're not really similar enough to be 'clones'.

Well, I always saw 'clones' as chars with large numbers of similarities but I can see what you're saying about them not being 'exact' clones. However, Wolf is a lot more similar to the other StarFox chars than you're making it look. It's more than just lasers and a reflector. All of his specials are extremely similar to Fox's and Falco's. He has a linear flash-step sideB that can pop the opponent up (Fox) or meteor him (Falco). His upB is also a linear recovery with a small amount of startup in the beginning that travels in a direction chosen before movement occurs.

Some of his other moves are also extremely similar. His bair's animation looks very similar to the bairs of the other two, it kills just like them, and it has very low startup, cooldown, and landing lag, just like the other two. In addition, his dair is a meteor, just like Fox's (his dair is actually a weak multi-hit meteor) and Falco's. And then of course, he shares similar statistics, like being a fast faller.

Ness and Lucas are somewhat similar but again they're just not similar enough to be labelled 'clones'. Not even close. Their attacks and movement styles are completely different.

Again, they're not 'exact clones' but I always saw clones as chars who shared a lot of similarities, more than one would reasonably expect from chars who are simply from the same series and nothing more. Obviously, they both have really sparkly magic attacks, but there's more. Even though neither of the PK Kids learn ANY of the specials they possess in Smash (except for Ness' PK Flash which, ironically, Lucas learns as well), they both share PKF, PKT, and PSI Magnet. In addition, both of them have similar nB's that are ejected out of their heads and charged as they descend and travel horizontally until they're released. This part is where it gets funny, 'cause it seems like Sakurai was trying to avoid the whole cloning thing by giving Lucas PK Freeze instead of Flash, but Flash would have actually been the one move that would have been canonically shared between them, so it would have made sense if they had shared that move in Smash. Lucas doesn't actually learn PK Freeze but both kids learn Flash.

Of course, the similarities go far past this. Similar throws, with bthrow having the greater KB for kills, fthrow and uthrow being weak launchers and dthrow being a damage-racker that grinds the opponent against the floor. Funnily enough, it seems like Sakurai was deliberately trying to avoid the cloning issue again with the throws, because I believe he reversed which throws between bthrow and fthrow had the greater KBG going from Ness to Lucas. Then of course, they both have fast headbutt uairs, meteor dairs, bairs that were clearly meant to be kill moves, fast 3-hit jabs, and super fast dtilts that induce trips.

I don't really see how you can say that Wolf is not that similar to the other StarFox characters or that Lucas does not have many shared attacks and traits with Ness.

Edit: Wow, how did I miss the most obvious similarity between the two PK Kids: the fsmash.

With TL I suppose you could make a case of him being Link's clone but the similarity between TL and Brawl Link is much smaller than the similarity between Melee Link and YL. With those two, literally all their moves were the same except Link's were bigger and stronger, TL's arrows and sweetspot dair had fire, his upB was bigger and multihit and...actually I think that's it. They even moved in the same way, with Link just being a little slower.

They were a little more different than that. YL's aerial upB also covered a lot more distance so YL was just as good at recovering, despite having a much shorter tether.

In Brawl, TL and Link are almost completely opposite in their movement styles, though they do have all the same moves outside of the boomerang, bair, usmash and fair. If anything I'd label them semiclones.

Link and YL were completely different in their movement styles as well. Aside from YL being just plainly faster, he was more nimble and agile (faster jumpsquat, etc.) so he was more suited to hit-and-run tactics and platform camping. TL is more different from Link than YL is, but not by much, outside of the new moves that you mentioned (although both TL and YL share the more precise 'rang).

Also keep in mind that in the Metroid series, both Dark Samus and SA-X are meant to be literal clones of Samus (well...I guess it's arguable for Dark Samus but she turned out to be pretty much identical to Samus, just with a few additional capabilities that probably wouldn't work in Smash 4. With SA-X it's definitely not arguable). Including them in the next game would mean they either de-clone from the Metroid series (which wouldn't really make any sense) or stay true to the Metroid series and reintroduce clones in the smash series, which would defeat the purpose of all the changes they made between Melee and Brawl.

Well, if that's the problem, then the solution is simple. Introduce Dark Samus/SA-X with moves that are clearly still Samus' but are different from the moves that Samus has in Smash Bros. There is plenty of material to choose from. Samus had way too many moves for them all to be included in Smash. Dark Samus could easily be given a set of moves that Samus isn't currently using. One simple example: Phazon moves from Metroid Prime 3.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Mario/Luigi are not clones in any sense of the word in melee...

Bubba reaching SO HARD with what he calls a clone...

 

[pidgezero_one]

MK is a kirby clone they both jump a lot and have the same dthrow and upthrow
your move sakurai

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If we have such loose definitions for clones, pretty much every classic fighting game is ****ed.

 

[bubbaking]

I think I wanna address this now.

What traits did Lucario get from Mewtwo? Their Neutral B is similar, their Usmashes and Jab have a similar animation. They're both Pokemon. That is literally EVERYTHING they have in common.

Mewtwo has just as much in common with Lucas as he does with Lucario lmao. Same giant double jump, similar Dsmash. Dtilt is similar, Lucas's just has way less range.

It's more than just the moves. A lot of Mewtwo's moves have 'Darkness' on them and that concept was practically translated to Lucario's Aura. The nB was a blatant carry-over with slight changes. They both also have 'teleport' upB's without hitboxes.

jigglypuff is a kirby clone because holy **** that dsmash

Oh man, I actually pointed this out earlier!
[COLLAPSE="Kirby a clone of Puff? "]

Mario/Luigi are not clones in any sense of the word in melee...

Are you kidding me? Identical jabs, except for hit 3 (which still serves the same GTFO purpose). Practically identical EVERYTHING except for sideB and upB. UpB is still SJP for both of them, Luigi's just goes straight up. Here, let me fill you in on something interesting that John12346 actually pointed out to me. The Mario Bros are such clones of each other that Luigi's voice is just Mario's voice recycled at a higher frequency. Give Luigi a Super Mushroom and he sounds just like Mario. Give Mario a Poison Mushroom and he sounds just like Luigi. The only differences between the voice clips is that they're placed on different moves. This was obviously changed in Brawl. It's literally the epitome of laziness. For those who don't know, the Mario Bros were EXACT clones (animation-wise) in SSB 64. I think they were the only exact clones in all of Smash.

This is why, unless you're referring solely to those two, I often refer to very similar chars as 'clones' because where does one draw the line between 'clone' and 'extremely similar character'?

If we have such loose definitions for clones, pretty much every classic fighting game is ****ed.

Well actually, fighting games do have a lot of 'clones'. For all practical intents and purposes, pretty much everyone considers the Shoto chars in SF as 'clones' or close enough to that. They all have Hadokens, Tatsumakis, and DPs, and many of their normals are the same or extremely similar. Heck, in SF I, Ken and Ryu are actually the same exact char, just with different color pallet swaps, and in SF II, they are 'SSB 64 Mario Bros clones' with differences only in speed and power.

 

[Luco]

Hmm, not necessarily bubba. The fact they made Lucas so similar to Ness is worrying because it almost feels like they didn't care (but i'm sure they did at least a little so i'm not going to be THAT pessimistic) when it came to Lucas' design. That said, aside from his specials he's actually rather different to Ness. His Dair doesn't really become a worrying spike until 79% when it actually slams the opponent (which is when you can begin a Dtilt lock on most characters). The fact that it slams, shows it's good enough to be worrying off the edge but that's 80%. That's the percent that all his smashes can kill at. @.@

His Bthrow is a far stronger spike... but man it's hard to spike with it unless you're deliberately practicing it... you have to hit the opponent with the tip of the foot or it doesn't spike... and otherwise it's a pretty lame kill move. Ness on the other hand has a worrying Bair that easily sweetspots and even it's sourspot allows for combos.

When it comes to throws, Lucas' Dthrow is one of the strongest in the game, killing most chars at around the 150% percent mark. Ness' Bthrow is the strongest in the game after a certain percent (like after 100 or so?) and his Dthrow is actually rather weak, used for combos even when his Bthrw would kill. With lucas at that stage, his Dthrw ain't gonna be used for combos.

Haha, sorry, I went on a rant. Yes they share many moves but i've talked to a lot of people and most don't consider them direct 'clones' (which I was surprised at because I always thought of the star-furries as being in similar positions but people consider them clones so eh. )

Still, I don't blame you if you say the're clones. Tbh IMO they share enough traits for you to be ok either way.

So... my rant was pretty useless.


ANYWAY, for most people, really.... smash 4 has just been discussed so much, I could rebuttal you guys all day on some stuff but meh because it's still really subjective.

Personally I don't see ZSS as a likely candidate for being cut, SMP

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I'm sorry, but the idea that Lucas and Ness are simlar in any way outside of being from the same series, and having specials with similar (but not identical) functions is pretty laughable. Their normals have less in common with each other than fox/falco by a mile.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I main ness and lucas is one of my secondaries, also vouching for totally-not-clone land

 

[MarioNPinkie]

i also agree they arent even clones

 

[bubbaking]

I main DDD. I say he's an eagle. :-|

 

[Luigi player]

For those who don't know, the Mario Bros were EXACT clones (animation-wise) in SSB 64. I think they were the only exact clones in all of Smash.

But they did have some differences! Their winning animations, standing animation, fireball, taunt, intro, dtilt and running attack were different... maybe even some more.

 

[MarioNPinkie]

But they did have some differences! Their winning animations, standing animation, fireball, taunt, intro, dtilt and running attack were different... maybe even some more.

this is very true

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

It's more than just the moves. A lot of Mewtwo's moves have 'Darkness' on them and that concept was practically translated to Lucario's Aura. The nB was a blatant carry-over with slight changes. They both also have 'teleport' upB's without hitboxes.

So having 'Darkness' on their moves constitutes a clone now? I guess Mewtwo and Ganondorf were clones in Melee because there is darkness on Mewtwo's Fair and Ganon's Side B, and both moves send the opponent in an upward trajectory. And they both have darkness on their neutral Bs. CLONE ALERT.

You could argue the thing about Lucario's neutral B being a blatant carry over with slight changes, but then Samus's Neutral B is more or less the same thing with slight changes as well. AND all three characters are light. SAMUS, MEWTWO AND LUCARIO ARE CLONES

And the up Bs. That is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted in this thread, and that's saying A LOT. Mewtwo actually disappears and then reappears at his destination. You can only hit him during startup and ending frames, not while he is actually moving. THAT is what constitutes a 'teleport' move, like Sheik and Zelda's Up Bs. I SUPPOSE THEY'RE ALL CLONES. What Lucario has is a quick move that moves him from one place to another BUT CAN BE HIT THROUGH THE WHOLE DURATION. Like Pika's Up B or the Spacies Phatasms. THEY MUST ALL BE CLONES. Furthermore, you can change the trajectory of Lucario's Up B during the move (i.e. once you have started moving), and you cannot do so with Mewtwo.

 

[Sunnysunny]

It's more than just the moves. A lot of Mewtwo's moves have 'Darkness' on them and that concept was practically translated to Lucario's Aura. The nB was a blatant carry-over with slight changes. They both also have 'teleport' upB's without hitboxes.

Dude you're really reaching here.

Similarities do not = clone. By that logic Mewtwo copied samus's Neutral b from n-64 because it's a big chargeable projectiles, Zelda is totally a clone of Mewtwo because she uses magic powers with disjoint and teleports, and so is lucas because he's psychic, has some similar moves, and has a similar double jump.

lucario's aurasphere and aura are his signature things. They didn't look at mewtwo as a base for lucario, these are things that are already established about the character that would be dumb to get rid of just because they look visually similar.

The spacies? Yea i'll give ya there clone-ish, because they looked towards each other for inspiration, but that ain't the case with Lucario and Mewtwo.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Dude you're really reaching here.

Similarities do not = clone. By that logic Mewtwo copied samus's Neutral b from n-64 because it's a big chargeable projectiles, Zelda is totally a clone of Mewtwo because she uses magic powers with disjoint and teleports, and so is lucas because he's psychic, has some similar moves, and has a similar double jump.

God dammit Sunny, you took almost everything I said over my recent posts and squished it down to 1 sentence.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Oh sorry. I didn't read yours, but I guess we came to the same conclusion.

General gist of what i'm saying is Lucario did not draw inspiration from mewtwo, all his **** came from his source game/anime appearance and is iconic to him. Getting rid of it would be dumb just as getting rid of Lucas's telekinesis powers for the sake of differentiation is dumb.

They very well could have made extreme speed a teleport given it's original in game animation, but they chose a different route almost for the sake of separating the two.

Although the more I think about it, the more I want lucario's up-b to be a teleport, that clobbers the opponent saiyan style if he makes contact with them like the source game...

Hmm.

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

why does lucatio's extreme speed have no active hit box? That had bothered me for a long time considering extreme speed has always been an offensive move...

I can only imagine what lucario would be like if extreme speed was more like pikachu's quick attack.

 

[infiniteV115]

QACing with Lucario's air speed and his aerials would be godlike

 

[KRDsonic]

I've never understood why Extremespeed has such slow startup... seems like it should be... you know... fast?

Also, Sonic is a MAJOR clone in Brawl.

Same jab as Mario
His Utilt and Falcon's Usmash look the same
Same Ftilt as Pikachu
Same Dtilt as Lucas
His Dsmash can be argued to look somewhat similar to Bowser's Ledge <100 attack
His Uair looks like Wolf's Usmash
Same Fair as Pikachu and Falco
Same Bair as Samus, Wolf, and Fox
Same Dair as ZSS and Sheik
Same Nair as Wolf and Pikachu
Similar Side B to Yoshi
Similar Down B to Jigglypuff's Rollout
Final Smash is similar to Pikachu's
Same Bthrow as Pikachu
Uthrow is the same concept as Bowser's (throw them onto your spikes)

 

[DeLux]

Wolf is Diddy Kong without Bananas

 

[Sunnysunny]

QACing with Lucario's air speed and his aerials would be godlike

A man can dream. The pressure strings, and approaches would be godlike. ;~;

 

[Espy Rose]

why does lucatio's extreme speed have no active hit box? That had bothered me for a long time considering extreme speed has always been an offensive move...

Jigglypuff's Rest.

I've never understood why Extremespeed has such slow startup... seems like it should be... you know... fast?

Also, Sonic is a MAJOR clone in Brawl.

Same jab as Mario
His Utilt and Falcon's Usmash look the same
Same Ftilt as Pikachu
Same Dtilt as Lucas
His Dsmash can be argued to look somewhat similar to Bowser's Ledge <100 attack
His Uair looks like Wolf's Usmash
Same Fair as Pikachu and Falco
Same Bair as Samus, Wolf, and Fox
Same Dair as ZSS and Sheik
Same Nair as Wolf and Pikachu
Similar Side B to Yoshi
Similar Down B to Jigglypuff's Rollout
Final Smash is similar to Pikachu's
Same Bthrow as Pikachu
Uthrow is the same concept as Bowser's (throw them onto your spikes)

Someone's never played Sonic the Fighters or Sonic Battle. Or any of the first four major Sonic titles either.

 

[Sunnysunny]

There's alot of little things that bug me about brawl lucario.

Extreme speed being extreme slow.
His strength being based on his damage.
Having no moves that resemble Egyptian kickboxing (His whole design was based off of anubis and egyptian kick boxers)

Maybe i'm being picky, but little things like that bug me.

 

[KRDsonic]

Someone's never played Sonic the Fighters or Sonic Battle. Or any of the first four major Sonic titles either.

I was really, really hoping you would understand the point of my post without me having to explain it. Of course I know where Sonic's moveset comes from. My post was sarcasm to show that any character can be compared to others to be called a clone.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't care. You're still bad for doing it.

 

[KRDsonic]

Would you rather me dig up old gamefaqs posts to try to find where someone, near the beginning of Brawl, tried to call Ice Climbers a Peach clone?

 

[Espy Rose]

I'd rather you never post again.

 

[pidgezero_one]

zelda is a ness clone because they both kave lightning kick bairs

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Would you rather me dig up old gamefaqs posts to try to find where someone, near the beginning of Brawl, tried to call Ice Climbers a Peach clone?

I want to see that

 

[pidgezero_one]

and have you even seen fox's utilt? clearly a kirby clone :\

 

[Sunnysunny]

Nut uh!
Kirbys the rip off!

His neutral B's like, a total copy of everybody's neutral B.

Lame clone character imo.

 

[pidgezero_one]

nah man, you got it all backwards, SSBB is full of kirby clones. i mean look at jigglypuff's moveset, obviously she is the clone because kirby is older by 5 years or so. all you have to do is look at dedede's bair and neutral B to see he is obviously a kirby clone... AND ALSO HE HAS A HAMMER. and look at MK, 5 air jumps and kirby's uthrow and dthrow? clearly a cheap and inferior kirby clone.

come on sakurai, why the hell would you get rid of supposed "clone characters" like roy and pichu and young link but have such a hard on for kirby that you have to make every goddamn character a clone of him? not fair if you ask me

 

[pidgezero_one]

oh, and i forgot to mention, even SONIC who isnt even a goddamn nintendo character is a kirby clone, his neutral b is a total ripoff from kirby's neutral b while wearing a blue hat

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Brawl is full of weak, pathetic clones which includes...

Mario: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Luigi
Toon Link: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Link
Lucas: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Ness
Diddy Kong: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Donkey Kong
Zelda: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Shiek
Red Alloy: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Yellow Alloy
Donkey Kong: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Diddy Kong
Sonic: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Meta Knight
Captain Fa- just joking :D

that is all

 

[pidgezero_one]

you forgot peach being a ness ripoff... i mean look at that nair. what's the point of even having both these characters in the game?