Official BBR Tier List v7

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Yeah, and Peach is a Pikachu rip off, totally stole the Dsmash from him

 

[MarioNPinkie]

also samus and c.falcon have the same u-tilt

 

[infiniteV115]

ZSS is clearly a clone of Captain Falcon. Have you seen her ftilt, dtilt and uair?

 

[Iota]

Who brought up this horrible topic?

Jigglypuff is totally a clone of Wario, just look at those dairs.

 

[Baskerville]

Mario: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Luigi
Toon Link: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Link
Lucas: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Ness
Diddy Kong: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Donkey Kong
Zelda: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Shiek
Red Alloy: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Yellow Alloy
Donkey Kong: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Diddy Kong
Sonic: for being a weak, pathetic clone of Meta Knight
Captain Fa- just joking :D

that is all

Nah playah, just nah. =P

 

[bubbaking]

I'm sorry, but the idea that Lucas and Ness are simlar in any way outside of being from the same series, and having specials with similar (but not identical) functions is pretty laughable. Their normals have less in common with each other than fox/falco by a mile.

You're just looking at the animations. I'm talking about both the animations and the major functions of the moves. If the ideas behind the movesets are the same, then they're practically the same. For instance, Pika's and Pichu's usmashes look completely different and they even have different hitboxes, but they still serve the exact same function. They're fast, extremely strong vertical KO moves. I'm pretty sure that no one would claim, just because Pichu's usmash animation/hitbox is completely different from Pika's, that Pichu isn't a clone of Pika.

But they did have some differences! Their winning animations, standing animation, fireball, taunt, intro, dtilt and running attack were different... maybe even some more.

Their intros and dtilts are different? Huh, I never knew that one.

[COLLAPSE="Wow... (-_-)"]So having 'Darkness' on their moves constitutes a clone now? I guess Mewtwo and Ganondorf were clones in Melee because there is darkness on Mewtwo's Fair and Ganon's Side B, and both moves send the opponent in an upward trajectory. And they both have darkness on their neutral Bs. CLONE ALERT.

You could argue the thing about Lucario's neutral B being a blatant carry over with slight changes, but then Samus's Neutral B is more or less the same thing with slight changes as well. AND all three characters are light. SAMUS, MEWTWO AND LUCARIO ARE CLONES

And the up Bs. That is probably one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted in this thread, and that's saying A LOT. Mewtwo actually disappears and then reappears at his destination. You can only hit him during startup and ending frames, not while he is actually moving. THAT is what constitutes a 'teleport' move, like Sheik and Zelda's Up Bs. I SUPPOSE THEY'RE ALL CLONES. What Lucario has is a quick move that moves him from one place to another BUT CAN BE HIT THROUGH THE WHOLE DURATION. Like Pika's Up B or the Spacies Phatasms. THEY MUST ALL BE CLONES. Furthermore, you can change the trajectory of Lucario's Up B during the move (i.e. once you have started moving), and you cannot do so with Mewtwo.[/COLLAPSE]

You, sir, have completely misunderstood my original statement and are now putting words in my mouth. I NEVER said that Lucario is a clone of Mewtwo. That assertion was only directed towards the Mario Bros, Wolf, and Lucas. All I said was that Lucario replaced Mewtwo and acquired several of his traits. Then you had to go and blow up what I said. This is all I originally said on the subject of Mewtwo and Lucario:

Bosses can make good characters, IMO. See: Ganon, DDD, and MK. I personally think Ridley would make a great addition. In fact, I wouldn't mind if they just cut out Zard and gave Ridely a lot of his traits a la Mewtwo to Lucario.

Where the heck do you see the word "clone" in there?

Edit: That's directed at Sunnysunny, too.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lucario doesn't even have 'a lot' of Mewtwo's traits though. They both have a chargeable nB special that you can store like Samus' (which makes perfect sense for Lucario because Aura Sphere was sort of his 'trademark' move in gen IV pokemon, and Shadow Ball makes enough sense for Mewtwo) and the purple stuff vs aura thingy.
And being floaty I guess kinda maybe.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What does any of this have to do with the tier list?

 

[infiniteV115]

Because if characters are clones, they have to have tied positions on the tier list imo

 

[bubbaking]

And if you're going to totally misinterpret what I say, at least get your facts straight.

You could argue the thing about Lucario's neutral B being a blatant carry over with slight changes, but then Samus's Neutral B is more or less the same thing with slight changes as well. AND all three characters are light. SAMUS, MEWTWO AND LUCARIO ARE CLONES

The reasons Lucario's Aura Sphere is probably a blatant carry-over of Mewtwo's Shadow Ball are not only that they look extremely similar, have good KB, and are chargeable. Both moves also have active hitboxes while being charged and they can be charged in the air. Last time I checked, Samus' Charged Shot acts nothing like that. Also, Samus isn't light. She's one of the heaviest characters in Smash. Lucario's and Mewtwo's weights are reasonably close to each other. I believe Mewtwo's weight is around 90 while Lucario's weight is around 100, despite Mewtwo being 150 lbs heavier than him in actuality.

Similarities do not = clone. By that logic Mewtwo copied samus's Neutral b from n-64 because it's a big chargeable projectiles, Zelda is totally a clone of Mewtwo because she uses magic powers with disjoint and teleports, and so is lucas because he's psychic, has some similar moves, and has a similar double jump.

lucario's aurasphere and aura are his signature things. They didn't look at mewtwo as a base for lucario, these are things that are already established about the character that would be dumb to get rid of just because they look visually similar.

The spacies? Yea i'll give ya there clone-ish, because they looked towards each other for inspiration, but that ain't the case with Lucario and Mewtwo.

See: My posts above. I suspect that the reason Sakurai's team chose Lucario in the first place for Brawl is that he had enough traits that could be similar to Mewtwo's that he would be a relatively easy addition to work in. In a lot of aspects, Brawl is essentially a copy+paste of Melee (both good and bad things, which is lazy). It probably started with just a few 'Darkness' moves on Mewtwo, but then Sakurai's team was like, "Hey, you know those Darkness moves we put on Mewtwo? Those looked pretty cool. What if we expanded that to cover a Pokemon's entire moveset?"
"Yeah, well we can't just leave it as Darkness. That will look too cheap! What Pokemon has an innate ability that we could easily sub in for Darkness?"
Hence, Brawl Lucario was born. The main ideas were already present in Melee; they were just expanded and improved and given to the best candidate. A lot of new characters in Brawl are based on an expansion of concepts that were initially born in Melee.

Also, check this. Only an extremely small number of Pokemon learn Aura Sphere naturally. Mewtwo is one of those Pokemon. That's probably just a coincidence, but it's interesting to note, and one could possibly make the argument that was another trait shared between them that led to Lucario being the one selected to replace Mewtwo.

why does lucatio's extreme speed have no active hit box? That had bothered me for a long time considering extreme speed has always been an offensive move...

I can only imagine what lucario would be like if extreme speed was more like pikachu's quick attack.

If you want a game like that, you should head over to Project M or Brawl Minus, buddy. Those games are seriously a lot of fun (and Lucario actually makes sense)! Tbh, P:M Lucario is more truthful to the canon than his official vBrawl incarnation.

also samus and c.falcon have the same u-tilt

Actually, I could argue that these chars were actually semi-clones in SSB 64. They had a shared identical jab 1, DA, utilt, and dsmash, their nairs were extremely similar, and their dairs were insta-meteors. Still, that would probably be stretching it. Three of the four unlockable chars in SSB 64 had a bunch of shared traits and attacks with the 8 starters. I already showed how Jiggs and Kirby are already virtual semi-clones of each other, the Mario Bros are obvious, and I just explained the similarities between CF and Samus. The only exception was Ness, I guess.

 

[pidgezero_one]

If you compare each of lucas' moves to ness' corresponding moves the similarities are very few

Fair, nair, bair, and to a certain extent dair don't save the same purpose across characters
Same goes for dsmash, usmash, dash attack, tilts...
Lucas and ness' specials are similar in name only and psi magnet absorbing stuff, I personally don't use their specials even remotely similarly...

So that leaves us with a few throws, jab, uair, fsmash (not to mention ness' fsmash is pretty much only for hard reads)?

I guess it would make sense for lucas and ness to be clones considering they're functionally the exact same character in their games, but the two don't really play alike enough to actually be clones

 

[Iota]

You're just looking at the animations. I'm talking about both the animations and the major functions of the moves. If the ideas behind the movesets are the same, then they're practically the same. For instance, Pika's and Pichu's usmashes look completely different and they even have different hitboxes, but they still serve the exact same function. They're fast, extremely strong vertical KO moves. I'm pretty sure that no one would claim, just because Pichu's usmash animation/hitbox is completely different from Pika's, that Pichu isn't a clone of Pika.

EDIT: what pidge said.

 

[Luco]

This discussion... *tears hair out*

And private, I don't mean to say that they are or aren't: That's the point, I don't blame people for going either way.

I personally, from playing both of them competitively, feel they don't play enough like each other to be clones. They have quite a few similar moves but... No, to me, not clones.

 

[bubbaking]

Did Pidge just seriously make a serious post? And is she actually getting interested in this side-topic? Well, I'll be...

If you compare each of lucas' moves to ness' corresponding moves the similarities are very few

Fair, nair, bair, and to a certain extent dair don't save the same purpose across characters
Same goes for dsmash, usmash, dash attack, tilts...
Lucas and ness' specials are similar in name only and psi magnet absorbing stuff, I personally don't use their specials even remotely similarly...

So that leaves us with a few throws, jab, uair, fsmash (not to mention ness' fsmash is pretty much only for hard reads)?

I guess it would make sense for lucas and ness to be clones considering they're functionally the exact same character in their games, but the two don't really play alike enough to actually be clones

Mario and Luigi are also functionally pretty different in SSB 64, and even more so in Melee. They play completely different (in both games). I still consider them clones. If we're drawing the line at having ported movesets that do exactly the same things, then there are no clones in Smash. IMO, the term 'clone' is subjective and also depends on the game being referred to. There was only one set of clones in SSB 64 because that set had almost exactly the same shared moves. Clones became more differentiated in Melee but they still shared many similar move animations/functions. However, going by SSB 64 standards, there are no clones in Melee. Clones in Brawl are even more differentiated but they still have several similar animations/functions. That's how I see clones anyway, and I guess someone else may not see them this way.

Of course, because different 'cloned' chars have different physics, their playstyles (how they use their moves) are also different. However, if two moves have different animations but extremely similar uses and functions (Pichu/Pika usmash), then that's one point towards being a clone in my book. Likewise, if they have different functions but identical animations (Melee Mario/Luigi tornado), then that's another point.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Bubba stop posting
Srsly stop.

 

[DeLux]

Wolf is Diddy Kong without Bananas?

 

[Sunnysunny]

Diddy kong is Luigi with bananas.

 

[pidgezero_one]

Did Pidge just seriously make a serious post? And is she actually getting interested in this side-topic? Well, I'll be...



Mario and Luigi are also functionally pretty different in SSB 64, and even more so in Melee. They play completely different (in both games). I still consider them clones. If we're drawing the line at having ported movesets that do exactly the same things, then there are no clones in Smash. IMO, the term 'clone' is subjective and also depends on the game being referred to. There was only one set of clones in SSB 64 because that set had almost exactly the same shared moves. Clones became more differentiated in Melee but they still shared many similar move animations/functions. However, going by SSB 64 standards, there are no clones in Melee. Clones in Brawl are even more differentiated but they still have several similar animations/functions. That's how I see clones anyway, and I guess someone else may not see them this way.

Of course, because different 'cloned' chars have different physics, their playstyles (how they use their moves) are also different. However, if two moves have different animations but extremely similar uses and functions (Pichu/Pika usmash), then that's one point towards being a clone in my book. Likewise, if they have different functions but identical animations (Melee Mario/Luigi tornado), then that's another point.

lol yeah feels weird doesn't it? i'm so full of christmas spirit i'm not spamming for like 3 whole hours

but if you want to extend similarities to the rest of ness' and lucas' movesets for a more liberal definition of "clone", i'm still not seeing it...

for example, you could argue ness and lucas are clones because their utilts both sent their opponent upward

that's basically all the rest of their movesets have in common!!! and if that is criteria for cloning, then all my troll posts from the past 4 pages actually become real (and boy is that a scary thought)

 

[#HBC | Joker]

You're just looking at the animations. I'm talking about both the animations and the major functions of the moves. If the ideas behind the movesets are the same, then they're practically the same. For instance, Pika's and Pichu's usmashes look completely different and they even have different hitboxes, but they still serve the exact same function. They're fast, extremely strong vertical KO moves. I'm pretty sure that no one would claim, just because Pichu's usmash animation/hitbox is completely different from Pika's, that Pichu isn't a clone of Pika.

I most certainly am NOT just looking at their animations and saying "lol, different obv". Their normals have very very few simlar functions. I mean seriously, do you know ANYTHING about either of these chars? Name a normal they have that serves an identical function? I'll get you started. dtilt, fsmash, uair. That's it. The rest of their moves aren't the same at all, and if you tell me they're the same because "lol usmash is for hitting guys above you" or some stupid crap like that, then you're a moron, because everyone's usmash is for hitting the guy above them.

 

[bubbaking]

Likin' the new sig.

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Bubba stop posting
Srsly stop.

I will once you stop making strawmen out of my arguments.

 

[Delta-cod]

Your arguments just suck.

 

[Espy Rose]

I agree with Sunny2.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You don't feel like agreeing with Sunny1? I wonder how the other Sunny#### feel about this betrayal.

 

[Luco]

Haha I enjoy bubba's sig as well.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, well actually I was talking about Pidge's sig, but I do like my own as well.

 

[Luco]

OOPS Sorry i meanty pidge's sig.

That said, I DO enjoy your sig to an extent as well bubba so...

 

[Iota]

I agree with Delta, Espy, and Sunny.

 

[Orange Fox]

I like how Fox is like the borderline of the borderline.

 

[bubbaking]

2nd post. Quite reasonable. Good job.

 

[Orange Fox]

Thanks, congrats on your 3,573rd post.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Thanks, congrats on your 3,573rd post.

None of which have been reasonable

 

[pidgezero_one]

^this must be why bubba and I like each other so much

 

[RaptorTEC]

Sunny... I didnt know you were a poet o.o

 

[teluoborg]

Roses are red
Violets are blue
Bubba stop posting
Srsly stop.

It's a good thing I entered that thread today for the first time in a year.

Is it always like this ?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

^this must be why bubba and I like each other so much

At least you know you're posting pointless ****

 

[bubbaking]

Hey, you're the one who took a simple statement of mine and tore it to bits. All I said was 'I wouldn't mind if Zard gets dropped for Ridley, like Mewtwo for Lucario.' All of a sudden, red flags were drawn, alarms were sounded, and the very world as we knew it faced certain destruction.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I still maintain the Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo.

Lucario replaced Pichu as the most recent Generation representative and Pokemon Trainer replaced Mewtwo as a Gen 1 rep.

The only reason people started thinking Lucario replaced Mewtwo is because of their neutral B being similar

 

[DMG]

That reminds me

MEWTWO! GHEB WHERE ARE YA?!?!?

 

[bubbaking]

How about I shred you over your opinions, good sir? No one's is allowed to differ from my own.

And I like long posts.

You'd better stop now.

Edit: Gheb isn't here because he just realized Mewtwo isn't Lucario. It's a conspiracy.

Edit 2: Back to tier lists.....

 

[Orange Fox]

You say Lucario didn't replace Mewtwo? Well look what happens if you rearrange the letters in Mewtwo