Official BBR Tier List v7

[Delta-cod]

Thanks for your opinion. I sure do know more about Jigglypuff thanks to your insight.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ok fair enough.

Puff can get 30% strings, she can also get no string. It is all very situation based, but her combo game is generally the same across the board with a few exceptions.

I don't like giving my opinion anymore because the response I get is just "Nup Puff sucks at everything, my baseless theorycraft means more than the word of one of the only dedicated Puff players. You come from Australia so you bad", etc... Being vaguely condescending is more fun.

 

[Delta-cod]

Ok fair enough.

Puff can get 30% strings, she can also get no string. It is all very situation based, but her combo game is generally the same across the board with a few exceptions.

That works, and I agree.

I don't like giving my opinion anymore because the response I get is just "Nup Puff sucks at everything, my baseless theorycraft means more than the word of one of the only dedicated Puff players. You come from Australia so you bad", etc... Being vaguely condescending is more fun.

Don't let the Tier List Thread Monsters get you down.

 

[da K.I.D.]

@KID: Sonic's DA is safe?

Depends on the spacing and the character im fighting, but yes.

This. And this is also coming from someone who mains Bowser and plays X on a regular basis. Kid, youre highly underestimating Fortress OoS, Klaw, and Bowsers grab game.

I honestly dont know how I could be underestimating those moves, when I believe that fortress and klaw are the only usable moves the character has.

Also, KID is all caps please.

Seems like a recipe for disaster. If you only get one DJ and an AD that can probably be reacted to, and Jiggs is probably looking forward to the DJ/AD anyway.......then I think we have a character who isn't meant to receive any less than 30% in a string as punishment. Lolz!

your underestimating falcons airspeed and the mechanics of this game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser's fair, usmash, jab, tilts and fsmash are all useable



EDIT: Delta <3

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I don't see how his Fsmash is "usable" outside of extremely hard reads and grab release on Wario.

 

[Delta-cod]

The spacing on it is pretty lolzy.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ask a Donkey Kong main. Fsmash is good.

 

[Ghostbone]

F-smash has massive range and shield push back, it's usable enough. (oh and it's not that slow considering it's only 2 frames slower than MK's, though it's actually punishable)

Oh and bowser's grab is definitely usable as well, his pivot grab even has extreme range (as much as D3's iirc).
Then he gets all his grab-release shenanigans, getting grabbed by bowser sucks.

 

[Cassius.]

getting grabbed by Bowser only sucks if you play against one that knows what he's doing.

otherwise you're just going to get hit with basic ****.

we live for the Bowsers that can go and grab release from end to end, with no remorse.

Spoiler

no but really getting grabbed by bowser sucks, have you seen that man's side-b? i truly understand why peach gets kidnapped so many times

also bowser's fsmash is useable for a lot of things. its an extremely disjointed move. all of his moves are useable for something.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

I feel like sonic thrives in those ambiguous times more than most characters since most of his options are relatively safe. dash attack, spindash, and his speed lets him cover options that other characters cant.

against bowser specifically. theres only one real way to spindash at him. everything else gets fortressed. but I feel like if space things on shield in a way that doesnt get you fortressed, and pay attention to not getting klawed, theres no reason sonic doesnt win it handily.

A +1 matchup is still a pretty big advantage. It means that you have to get outplayed by someone who is (probably) a better player then you to lose the matchup.

Sonic does do well thriving off of ambiguous situations, but a matchup isn't about ambiguous situations. It's about analyzing both characters tools, and coming to an understanding of an accurate way of representing a matchup between 2 characters. Dash attack is unsafe on hit confirm vs EVERY character in smash at low/mid percents. Maybe over...80(?)% it's safe since it'll hit them far enough in the air for them to not be able to punish your lag frames. Dash attacking Bowser is a terrible idea. If he shields it, you get upB'd. I'm pretty sure he could ftilt or potentially even fsmash. And if you hit him? He goes barely in the air, and he can bair you, or sideB you. If you're getting away with dash attacks early, then you're getting away with a gimmick. Sure, it's practical to abuse such things in a set, but as far as the matchup is concerned, we're assuming that both players know what they're doing to eachothers character. ASCing his shield is relatively safe, but if you mess up footstooling away, he can upB OoS. The main thing vs Bowser as Sonic is your grab game. As soon as Bowser is above you...he really can't do anything except for a few select limited options. He could dair, but it's super laggy and risky. He could sideB then double jump cancel...but that's the #1 predictable option that you can sideB safely, proceed to uair, and you're back to square 1.

tl;dr based on the characters tools, it's a +1.

 

[Cassius.]

that's one thing that's a given in every Bowser match up. He has a glaring blind spot directly below him (and at times, diagonally as well) because he can only use NAir DAir and Bowser Bomb to cover those spots and they all come with a risk if they are blocked or misused.

I would give that to every character in this game, and if they can exploit that greatly then they already have something good going for them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I can't see Sonics up throw working at low%

Fast fall fair and klaw are too intimidating

 

[MeekSpeedy]

I can't see Sonics up throw working at low%

Fast fall fair and klaw are too intimidating

Uthrow is unpunishable. If you tried to fair, you'd get beat out by either shielding, or sideB. If you klaw, sideB would also beat it out since it has invincibility frames on startup. But none of that really matters, because that's after the uthrow. The main thing is, is that he can uthrow and you can't guarenteed punish it, and he has 1 option that covers almost all of your options, and from there can put you further in the air. It's an all-around bad situation for Bowser. The only option it doesn't cover is double jumping, which still puts you further into the air, just with less damage.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't like giving my opinion anymore because the response I get is just "Nup Puff sucks at everything, my baseless theorycraft means more than the word of one of the only dedicated Puff players. You come from Australia so you bad", etc... Being vaguely condescending is more fun.

If you only you didn't jump on people making simple factual statements.....

your underestimating falcons airspeed and the mechanics of this game.

Perhaps, but I'm not the one who originally made the argument that Jiggs regularly gets 30+% aerial strings on Falcon. That sounds like +2 material.

A +1 matchup is still a pretty big advantage. It means that you have to get outplayed by someone who is (probably) a better player then you to lose the matchup.

But that's not what +1 means, though. I've been functioning this entire time off the definition given in the OP that +1 is just a "small advantage". Only +2 and +3 are large advantages. +1's can be invalidated by stage strikes and bans.

 

[bassem6]

oh crap, sorry bassem you have beaten me in money matches i got you mixed up for jnig man
gotta apologize

No problem buddy, happens to the best of us :D

 

[KRDsonic]

I thoroughly enjoy using Bowser's Dair.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you only you didn't jump on people making simple factual statements.....

"Factual".

 

[bubbaking]

Since when is the sentence "Non-punishable on hit does not equal good follow-ups," not factual?

@Meek: Your analysis makes sense, but if Sonic can create a really bad situation for Bowser every time he grabs him, then how is the MU not +2 or +3? IMO, for you to say that the MU is indeed +1, you'd have to prove that Bowser can make it very, very difficult for Sonic to land the grab. Not only that, you'd have to prove that Bowser can prevent Sonic from getting the lead during a match for a long time and/or if Sonic does get the lead, Bowser can catch him and take it back.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

But that's not what +1 means, though. I've been functioning this entire time off the definition given in the OP that +1 is just a "small advantage". Only +2 and +3 are large advantages. +1's can be invalidated by stage strikes and bans.

A small advantage is still an advantage. A +2/+3 matchup is validated to be unwinnable unless you're a different level of player compared to whoever you're playing against. (Different level = comparing a national level player to a regional level player) Basically, the difference between a +2/3 and a +1 is that in one matchup, you have to outplay and outsmart your opponent to win, and in the other scenario, you have to be a complete better player, otherwise it's practically hopeless. If you were to imply that 2 players were the same level of skill in an even matchup, there would be no way of telling who would/should win. If it's a +1 or higher, it's clear who will win. If it's a +2 but the person on the -2 side of the matchup is an overall better player but losing, it's because of the matchup. Even though he's the better player, he's still losing because of a tactic that shuts down his characters metagame. If it were a -1/+1 matchup, he would win because there isn't a simple tactic that can shut down a large majority of his options on a large majority of stages, and his overall intelligence as a player can overcome the disadvantage.

tl;dr main difference between -1 and -2/-3 is one is a advantage/disadvatage, and the other is unwinnable, given both players are the same (relative) skill level.

Since when is the sentence "Non-punishable on hit does not equal good follow-ups," not factual?

@Meek: Your analysis makes sense, but if Sonic can create a really bad situation for Bowser every time he grabs him, then how is the MU not +2 or +3? IMO, for you to say that the MU is indeed +1, you'd have to prove that Bowser can make it very, very difficult for Sonic to land the grab. Not only that, you'd have to prove that Bowser can prevent Sonic from getting the lead during a match for a long time and/or if Sonic does get the lead, Bowser can catch him and take it back.

Sonic has to run up, shield, then grab. His dash grab sucks ***. Meaning Bowser is already in an advantageous position from stand still, because I have to stop myself with shield, and go through the lag frames of initiating a shield. Bowser can also play a decent defensive game vs Sonic. Once/if Sonic gets a stock lead, it gets really rough for Bowser to get a kill on Sonic without taking a lot of damage. Sonic also has lack/lustre kill moves (16 frame fsmash that really isn't that strong, a slow bair that's usually stale) against one of the heaviest characters in the game. Whereas Bowser can kill Sonic at like...90-110%. Potentially even lower if he uairs our spinshot. I'm 90% sure Bowser can Grab release > jab (?). I'm not 100% sure on his grab release options, so don't quote me on that.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

double post, disregard. edited in post above

 

[Dre89]

Upb and sideb are Bowser's only good moves, in the sense that they're probably his only moves high tiers would trade for.

I personally assumed Sonic would wreck Bowser because Bowser would never be able to catch him when he runs away.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Bowser can catch him fine. Decent dash + massive hitboxes = Sonic getting cornered.

And yes, he can grab release to jab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I'm not saying Bowser is good, but why does everyone think he's so slow? lol

His dash speed is ridiculous

 

[Steam]

bowser is pretty strong when he's not getting projectile camped.

 

[Tesh]

Bowser can catch him fine. Decent dash + massive hitboxes = Sonic getting cornered.

And yes, he can grab release to jab.

Relative to his size, his hitboxes aren't very big at all. Most of them are really pathetic by comparison to how easy it is to hit his large frame. He isn't terribly terribly slow, but he won't corner sonic easily because its very easy to go over him or just bait him into jumping and then go under him.

He is one of the characters where Sonic can literally just flowchart down B camp. Jump charge down B and if he jumps you release and go under (fair and bair are too slow trying to cover a low angle) and if he doesn't jump you can just spinshot if he tried to stay grounded while approaching.

I'm not saying Bowser is good, but why does everyone think he's so slow? lol

His dash speed is ridiculous

bowser is pretty strong when he's not getting projectile camped.

Much like link, he isnt really that strong in most places. The few things he can hit with arent even good killers when fresh.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

He doesn't need a good hitbox size/hurtbox size ratio, because he out-ranges Sonic head-to-head anyway.

And I find it dubious that sonic could easily go over Bowser.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You know what I hate about Bowser?

His arms and whatever hitboxes are attached to are intangible. It means that his attacks are... disjointed, I guess.

He ftilt's me out of my Zelda's forward smash frequently, and it's dumb.

/random post

 

[Tesh]

He doesn't need a good hitbox size/hurtbox size ratio, because he out-ranges Sonic head-to-head anyway.

And I find it dubious that sonic could easily go over Bowser.

Hitbox placement. The only spot Bowser can cover quickly is the spot fair hits. Uair is obviously slow and he can't cover his landing with anything quick (klaw is slow).

Sure Bowser outranges Sonic in the spots he can reach, but Sonic is easily in control of the pace of the match and what angle Bowser has a shot at reaching him.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Sonic vs Bowser.

A +1 matchup is still a pretty big advantage. It means that you have to get outplayed by someone who is (probably) a better player then you to lose the matchup.

Disagree. A +1 matchup is one that you could easily lose to someone that isnt as good as you but just happened to be playing really well that day/made a few really solid reads.

Sonic does do well thriving off of ambiguous situations, but a matchup isn't about ambiguous situations. It's about analyzing both characters tools, and coming to an understanding of an accurate way of representing a matchup between 2 characters.

thats why i think sonic gives bowser the business so hard. To be honest, im not even THAT good against the character. Last time I played a bowser, I won by one stock mid percents. and in my mind it was just like 'wow, if I hadnt been so impatient and walked into side b 6 times in a row, I would have 2 stocked him easily since he cant really DO anything else.

Dash attack is unsafe on hit confirm vs EVERY character in smash at low/mid percents. Maybe over...80(?)% it's safe since it'll hit them far enough in the air for them to not be able to punish your lag frames. Dash attacking Bowser is a terrible idea. If he shields it, you get upB'd. I'm pretty sure he could ftilt or potentially even fsmash. And if you hit him? He goes barely in the air, and he can bair you, or sideB you. If you're getting away with dash attacks early, then you're getting away with a gimmick. Sure, it's practical to abuse such things in a set, but as far as the matchup is concerned, we're assuming that both players know what they're doing to eachothers character.

At what point did I give you a percent threshold when I said dash attack is fairly safe? because I dont recall doing that.

I dont even know why you brought up low percent dash attacks because everyone can punish that and it doesnt even factor into any of his matchups until after about 60.
But the fact is, that Bowser is actually SO fat, (this may need to be tested since its been a while since I looked into this) that sonic can actually run behind bowser before dash attacking and still hit with it. What this does is hit bowser with the strong hit, which has more shieldstun, and pushes him backwards, and away from the direction we are rolling in. Higher shieldstun + higher pushback = safer on block.

most of what you said there was rambling based on assumptions you made of what you thought i was talking about.

ASCing his shield is relatively safe, but if you mess up footstooling away, he can upB OoS.

first of all, how exactly do you 'mess up' hitting the jump button? like, its so easy in this game, you dont even have to hit a button, you just move the stick up...
secondly if you ASC him you can actually land and shield and it will block the fortress.

The main thing vs Bowser as Sonic is your grab game. As soon as Bowser is above you...he really can't do anything except for a few select limited options. He could dair, but it's super laggy and risky. He could sideB then double jump cancel...but that's the #1 predictable option that you can sideB safely, proceed to uair, and you're back to square 1.

tl;dr based on the characters tools, it's a +1.

it sounds like you just have a different understanding of what constitutes what matchup numbers.

@Meek: Your analysis makes sense, but if Sonic can create a really bad situation for Bowser every time he grabs him, then how is the MU not +2 or +3? IMO, for you to say that the MU is indeed +1, you'd have to prove that Bowser can make it very, very difficult for Sonic to land the grab. Not only that, you'd have to prove that Bowser can prevent Sonic from getting the lead during a match for a long time and/or if Sonic does get the lead, Bowser can catch him and take it back.

Pretty much this.

tl;dr main difference between -1 and -2/-3 is one is a advantage/disadvatage, and the other is unwinnable, given both players are the same (relative) skill level.

False.

You DO know that theres actually a matchup designation number for something that is unwinnable right?
its called +4

+2/3 does not make something unwinnable it just increases the level of difficulty which can be based on a number of different factors. neutral game, gimmicks (locks/CGs) offstage, momentum, and most importantly, practicality of implimentation. Pikachu destroys fox. mainly because of the CG. Sheik has a 0-to-wayy-too-high tilt lock on wolf. but that matchup is still close to even? why? practicality of implimentation. Its SUPER easy to set up the pika CG on fox because foxs range sucks and he cant stay safe well and pika has other moves that set up into it. wolf sheik isnt nearly that bad because in order for sheik to get into that position, she has to eat like 16 bairs first, and even if she does get it, she has to be frame perfect to not get shined out of it.

Thats a big reason of why I think bowser is so bad. Arguably his best trait (his reduced grab break time) is so much more difficult to impliment then basically everything anybody else has to do to beat bowser. both from a technical proficiency and a in-game situation perspective.
2 and 3 refer to a moderate and large advantage respectively.

Lucario doesnt have any one move or trait that completely invalidates sonic, its clearly not an unwinnable matchup. its not like he spends half the matchup not getting to play or something. But all of his traits come together to counter all of sonics traits. its clearly AT LEAST, a -2 but its not unwinnable. Even though Espy has never beaten Trela, hes still taken games off of him, which proves my point.

Sonic has to run up, shield, then grab. His dash grab sucks ***. Meaning Bowser is already in an advantageous position from stand still, because I have to stop myself with shield, and go through the lag frames of initiating a shield.

you act like shields take some ungodly amount of time to put up, its adding 1 frame to a 6 frame grab. not a big deal.

Bowser can also play a decent defensive game vs Sonic. Once/if Sonic gets a stock lead, it gets really rough for Bowser to get a kill on Sonic without taking a lot of damage. Sonic also has lack/lustre kill moves (16 frame fsmash that really isn't that strong, a slow bair that's usually stale) against one of the heaviest characters in the game.

The fact that sonics kill moves are bad is the reason why actually does better against all the heavyweight fact characters

the fatties dont have the ability to just have constant obnoxious hitboxes out there at all times that characters like MK, Falco, and Olimar do. They have to commit to things because they take big swings, and sonic can punish and by extention, build momentum and by extention rack damage faster on them than he can most of the normal mid weight characters because he gets in on them easier and then has easier follow ups on them. Which do a fantastic job of mitigating the kill power descrepancy.

People say, so and so lives longer, as if the 2 characters in a match will always be building damage at the same rate.... They dont. Even if sonic dies at 100 (avoid up tilt at kill %s btw) and bowser dies at 180, it doesnt matter because sonic is going to be hitting bowser more than twice as more as vice versa. Not to mention the fact that those characters have bigger openings with which to use our crappy killmoves anyway. Lucario is probably going to live longer than bowser against sonic, just by virtue of the fact that on a scale of difficulty, hitting lucario with an f smash is like a 9/10 and hitting bowser with the same move is like a 2/10.

Whereas Bowser can kill Sonic at like...90-110%. Potentially even lower if he uairs our spinshot. I'm 90% sure Bowser can Grab release > jab (?). I'm not 100% sure on his grab release options, so don't quote me on that.

1. we just established that we want to be under bowser, why would you shoot over his head at a neutral situation where he could do that?
2. I BELIEVE Bowser gets grab release to side b on like 90% of the cast, that one of the easiest and one of the most damaging follow ups, so most of them I think will do that.

I'm not saying Bowser is good, but why does everyone think he's so slow? lol

His dash speed is ridiculous

with his hitboxes, and his speed, even though its not bad. its not going to help him close distance on sonic on terms hes happy with.

You know what I hate about Bowser?

His arms and whatever hitboxes are attached to are intangible. It means that his attacks are... disjointed, I guess.

He ftilt's me out of my Zelda's forward smash frequently, and it's dumb.

/random post

What the hell are you doing with your life, that you know that much about that matchup?

like, i just spent over a half hour talking about sonic vs bowser, and even I think youre wasting your time to know something like that lol.

 

[bubbaking]

Two Sonics going at it. Who shall outspeed the other in a game of wit and words?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What the hell are you doing with your life, that you know that much about that matchup?

like, i just spent over a half hour talking about sonic vs bowser, and even I think youre wasting your time to know something like that lol.

There's this Bowser player I used to play a lot.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

KID Goggles is sonic vs bowser matchup sage, im nooblord5000.

I'm sure Malcolm would agree that Sonics dthrow > Homing attack offstage vs Bowser is a true combo. With that said, this is a +2 potentially +3.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If you dont want to respond to my post because its ungodly long, you can just say so. I wouldnt blame you for a second. But it really doesnt serve you at all to be unnecessarily dismissive.

 

[bubbaking]

What's your speedy reply, KID?

#SeeWhatIDidThere?!?

Edit: Too late... I'm no Sonic.....

 

[da K.I.D.]

You're too slow

 

[bubbaking]

 

[MeekSpeedy]

If you dont want to respond to my post because its ungodly long, you can just say so. I wouldnt blame you for a second. But it really doesnt serve you at all to be unnecessarily dismissive.

It was one of those huge responses that I just saw the length...so I just nodded and agreed. Anyone willing to put that much effort into proving me wrong deserves to get what they want. You're probably right anyways. But dthrow > homing attack works. I swear my life on it.

 

[bubbaking]

Anyone willing to put that much effort into proving me wrong deserves to get what they want.

Almost sigged. It's too bad no one has this mentality when faced with DarkPeach's posts.

 

[1PokeMastr]

But DarkPeach doesn't go around trying to prove Meek wrong.