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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Lukingordex

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That's why I didn't initially throw it out there.

And I am now challenging all Sonics so I can show them why their character is free and boring to play.
Where's the like button for this post?
 

Iota

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ROB is low tier by my definition don't get me started, it's not dumb i just understand the character and his limitations.

Your "understanding" of Rob is flawed. A character that goes even with Marth and ICs, beats or goes even with most of mid tier, and that wrecks all of low tier is in no way a low tier character. He has some horrible MUs such as MK, ZSS and d3 but most of his other high/top MUs are only -1's. He's not top of mid but he's not really bottom of it either. :happysheep:
 

da K.I.D.

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i just took as a troll trying to get people riled up, or him just not understanding that we actually know each other irl.

but yea, we need to play in marvel too.

also, i respect nick riddle for being around consistently and always being able to get hit points across in 2 sentances or less.

also, DELTA COD FROM DEEP LEFT FIELD WITH THAT HYPOCRISY.
 
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2 sentences or less can be good and bad.

Personally I like to elaborate a bit. I've made it a point to cut down on the length of my posts considerably but I'd rather get everything I want to say out in one post than clarify points for 2-3 pages afterwards, y'know?
 

da K.I.D.

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NR usually doesnt make long drawn out points from what ive seen. usually just calling people out on stupidity and bad logic and off the wall claims. The kind of stuff that you have to be smart to phrase in a way where you can be short with your words, but other smart people know exactly what youre saying.

^^As you can see, Im not good at that.
 

bubbaking

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Every character in low/bottom tier is underrepresented and has saving graces, but there's one big problem.......

SOMEBODY HAS TO BE IN LAST PLACE.


This is a tier list, a ranking of all the characters in the game. Just because someone is in last place, doesn't mean they're 100% ****. We could argue all day about how Bowser, Ganon, Falcon, Zelda, Link, Jiggs, or Mario are underrated and capable of doing better, but at the end of the day somebody's got to occupy that bottom spot. In fact, that's the biggest problem with low/bottom tier: We don't honestly know who is truly better than who in that group, due to a massive lack of results. We probably will never get enough results, either, because most players (who want to win) will wisely devote their time and energy to better characters.

For now, we'll have to mostly rely on theorycraft, aka business as usual in here. All I ask is that whenever you're debating that a character should be higher, actually compare the character to the characters you want him/her to overtake on the list. Simply talking about the character's merits isn't enough.
But that's the thing. We don't have to give last place to just ONE character. We could always do what the MBR did for their tenth tier list. :awesome:
[COLLAPSE="Former Melee Tier List"]
[/COLLAPSE]

Transforming definitely makes match-ups like DDD a lot better for Sheik.
We already had a large discussion in here about this, one that involved the top DDDs and a bunch of other BBR members in here, and we came to a conclusion. DDD:Sheilda should be 0 just like DDD:Sheik. Sheilda may play the MU differently, but it's still no better than just staying Sheik. No one was able to give a good explanation for how +1 Sheilda ended up on the MU chart.

No, she actually has a solid follow-up game. Why do you keep talking about Puff when you are so ignorant of how she plays?
Hey, I NEVER said that Jiggs doesn't have a solid follow-up game. All I said was "Being nonpunishable on hit does not mean you have a 'solid follow-up game'," because you said, "Puff's follow-up game in Brawl is really solid; she doesn't get punished on hit unless you are using the wrong moves, and that's true of everyone. Just goes to show how little people understand this character." I'm sorry, but your statement made a point that the subsequent clause seemed to be backing up, but the logic contained in that subsequent clause did nothing of the sort. Your second sentence then drew a conclusion from that statement that shouldn't have been made because the argument made in the first sentence wasn't necessarily proven or backed up.

I wish he was in mid... :urg:
I really don't understand why Lucas is still not in Mid. My personal feelings are that Lucas is way too good to be stuck in the same tier as the rest of Low. I mean, if Luigi was down there too, then it might make sense, but Lucas being separated from Luigi by a whole tier gap and also being in the same tier as Falcon and Bowser doesn't make sense. Perhaps the BBR should make a BL2 tier, like they do in Pokemon. :troll:
 

Grim Tuesday

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What the hell are you even talkin' about yo'

I'm not interested in debating over my choice of words; the point is that Jigglypuff does punish reasonably hard due to her follow-up game, that's all you need to take from that sentence :p
 

bubbaking

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Who is KK? I'd like to think that it isn't KirbyKaze... :confused:

I feel like 'success' is relative here. Cus i thought we pretty much agreed that the character as a whole has no success.
So I guess if Jiggs beats a single decent Mid Tier main in bracket, we now have a successful Jiggs. That person's opinion on all of Puff's MUs is now law. :troll:

Then get some top players and come to Australia, yippee. :p
Or you, the minority, could spend your hard-earned cash and come to us, the majority, and prove wrong what the majority believes.....that Australia sucks. :smirk:

JK, I hate it when people are written off as bad because there's no one around to play, 'cause I can kinda relate (hidden in the wording of my sentence above ;) ), but it's not right for someone without results or experience to speak like a person with them.

But either way, I can't see Sonic beating Yoshi until I've personally gotten my *** handed to me in the MU.
Well, if we're gonna be like that, then I guess every character vs Low Tier is +4, 'cause I bet a lot of good players have not met a good Low Tier in bracket, let alone one who could beat them. :p
 

MeekSpeedy

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People also need to realize that a +1 matchup in something like Sonic vs Bowser (A matchup that hasn't been played or analyzed...really ever) is a riskier(? ...maybe strange would be the right word) edge to the Sonic player then you'd like to think. There's a lot of more ambiguous times in the matchup where either player might not know how to punish or deal with certain things, simply because of a lack of matchup experience, and character knowledge.
 

bubbaking

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Serious suggestion for the BBR. Consider my post that referenced the MBR's tenth tier list. Tie everyone in Hyrule+ Tier. There isn't enough representation, top level results, and understanding of those characters to reasonably decide who should legitimately be above the rest. As of now, the entire Hyrule+ tier should be considered tied, or at least close enough to be considered tied. All I'm seeing now in this thread is that each Low Tier's mains think their char should be higher than he/she is now because they main the character.

What the hell are you even talkin' about yo'

I'm not interested in debating over my choice of words; the point is that Jigglypuff does punish reasonably hard due to her follow-up game, that's all you need to take from that sentence :p
And my point was that I never said she didn't. You simply put sentences together badly and I was pointing out your flawed reasoining. All I've said about Jiggs 'offensive' game is that she has a hard time getting in (cleanly) to begin with; her follow-ups are fine.
 

Delta-cod

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I dont even need to rebut that statement. Your sig does it for me.
I have plenty of sigs that are similar to this. :awesome:

Well, if we're gonna be like that, then I guess every character vs Low Tier is +4, 'cause I bet a lot of good players have not met a good Low Tier in bracket, let alone one who could beat them. :p
But see, a lot of times it's more obvious based off character tools if there's an advantage one way or another. This is something that, looking at the character tools, I cannot actually see either character having an advantage, and until I experience getting beat because my character can't deal with something, I won't be able to see it that way.
 

bubbaking

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Goodness, I wasn't asking you to. :facepalm: I simply said your logic didn't make sense. You said Jiggs has a good follow-up game and then said she's safe on hit. When I read that, in my mind I was like 'Well no ****in' whoop! Everyone's safe on hit.' Then you said the same exact thing and proceeded to say, "Just goes to show how little people understand this character," as if what you said before was reason enough that no one understands Puff. All I was doing was pointing out that your statement didn't make any sense. This was your post, summarized in classic hyperbole fasion:

"Jiggs has good follow-ups; she doesn't get punished on-hit, but every char has that. That's why no one understands Jiggs." <___________________<

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not the only one who sees something wrong with that statement.....


About what I was talking about earlier, regarding Hyrule+ Tier, if this tier list was truly supposed to be influenced greatly by tournament results, especially by success/popularity, then Ganon shouldn't have ended up last AGAIN for the fifth tier list in a row. Looking at the data that went directly into the creation of this tier list, Ganon won more money than Zelda. Not only that, his Money/Popularity is greater than both Zelda's AND Link's. In fact, these two pieces of data for Ganon are on the same level as Falcon and they're much better than Bowser's. The Money/Popularity data alone for Ganon is better than that of practically every character above him all the way into Mid Tier. Of course, results don't say, explain, or prove everything, especially with such a small sample size (not many play Hyrule+ chars seriously). That is why other things should be taken into account, like how good these chars' best players are and how often they play other top/high players. The problem is that there isn't enough data regarding these other things. These chars' MUs with each other and with other also 'somewhat obscure' chars (every char below Upper Mid Tier is somewhat obscure) are not very well-known or understood and these characters as characters are also not fully understood. In light of such circumstances, either Ganon shouldn't be last (results) or everyone in Hyrule+ Tier should be tied.
 

da K.I.D.

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People also need to realize that a +1 matchup in something like Sonic vs Bowser (A matchup that hasn't been played or analyzed...really ever) is a riskier(? ...maybe strange would be the right word) edge to the Sonic player then you'd like to think. There's a lot of more ambiguous times in the matchup where either player might not know how to punish or deal with certain things, simply because of a lack of matchup experience, and character knowledge.
I feel like sonic thrives in those ambiguous times more than most characters since most of his options are relatively safe. dash attack, spindash, and his speed lets him cover options that other characters cant.

against bowser specifically. theres only one real way to spindash at him. everything else gets fortressed. but I feel like if space things on shield in a way that doesnt get you fortressed, and pay attention to not getting klawed, theres no reason sonic doesnt win it handily.
 

bubbaking

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There's no reason to get tight over this, Grim. If you really don't care, then drop it and don't reply. My statement, in all of its entirety, was:
Being nonpunishable on hit does not mean you have a "solid follow-up game".
I am rightfully a bit offended that you replied a little viciously with
No, she actually has a solid follow-up game. Why do you keep talking about Puff when you are so ignorant of how she plays?
and I am letting you know about it. I wasn't even talking about Jiggs at all. :glare:

@KID: Sonic's DA is safe? :confused:
 

Z'zgashi

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Sonic vs Bowser is +1 Sonic.

This is coming from someone who has played Phiddlesticks, KK, and sometimes online I get to play Limit.
This. And this is also coming from someone who mains Bowser and plays X on a regular basis. Kid, youre highly underestimating Fortress OoS, Klaw, and Bowsers grab game.
 

Luco

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Or you, the minority, could spend your hard-earned cash and come to us, the majority, and prove wrong what the majority believes.....that Australia sucks. :smirk:

JK, I hate it when people are written off as bad because there's no one around to play, 'cause I can kinda relate (hidden in the wording of my sentence above ;) ), but it's not right for someone without results or experience to speak like a person with them.
I don't claim to have a lot of experience but i'll do what I can. I know what you mean though... It sucks that people don't realise how high and mighty they come off when they say 'lol, your region is obscure so you have no right to say stuff.'

It sucks. It really really sucks. :(
 

DMG

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Yeah lol, Falcon tends to just airdodge or try to DJ and work with his fast fall speed to airdodge/land
 

bubbaking

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Seems like a recipe for disaster. If you only get one DJ and an AD that can probably be reacted to, and Jiggs is probably looking forward to the DJ/AD anyway.......then I think we have a character who isn't meant to receive any less than 30% in a string as punishment. Lolz!
 

Delta-cod

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Wut.

I don't even.

I can't.

You make it seem like punishing someone DJing out of immediate attack range and then FF Air Dodging to the ground is easy to punish.

Wut.

Even if you smack them for it, they'll have landed.
 

bubbaking

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Yeah, that's the impression I had too. If someone tries to AD and you predict it, you punish them. If AD is one of Falcon's only feasible options out of hitstun, then it's easier to punish him out of "aerial wake-up" than it is to punish most other characters. If you try to FF AD back to the ground, you can still punish the landing. If that wasn't the case, then I know that I wouldn't have been hit half the time I do that with DDD when trying to get back to the ground.
 

Delta-cod

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Falcon also has better horizontal aerial mobility than DDD.

When I'm getting juggled, I know my top priority is to get level with my opponent, then try to land. Being above someone sucks.

Falcon should have an easier time getting to the side of someone and then landing when compared to DDD. His Uair and Bair also hit better at this angle, offering better landing options.
 

Delta-cod

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Puff's mobility is high. However, when you consider the fact that things like Bair/Fair hit sideways, Falcon should be able to use the knockback + his own mobility to get out of a 30% string, lol. There's always the option of aiming for the ledge, which I don't think is a terrible option in this MU.
 
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