Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

Reverted avatars so quickly? <__<

 

[da K.I.D.]

Shelf life of a meme is at an all time low these days

 

[da K.I.D.]

Meek, you should at least read this part

Cus it really sounds like you dont quite have the correct understanding on what dictates a certain matchup number.

tl;dr main difference between -1 and -2/-3 is one is a advantage/disadvatage, and the other is unwinnable, given both players are the same (relative) skill level.

False.

You DO know that theres actually a matchup designation number for something that is unwinnable right?
its called +4

+2/3 does not make something unwinnable it just increases the level of difficulty which can be based on a number of different factors. neutral game, gimmicks (locks/CGs) offstage, momentum, and most importantly, practicality of implimentation.

Spoiler

Pikachu destroys fox. mainly because of the CG. Sheik has a 0-to-wayy-too-high tilt lock on wolf. but that matchup is still close to even? why? practicality of implimentation. Its SUPER easy to set up the pika CG on fox because foxs range sucks and he cant stay safe well and pika has other moves that set up into it. wolf sheik isnt nearly that bad because in order for sheik to get into that position, she has to eat like 16 bairs first, and even if she does get it, she has to be frame perfect to not get shined out of it

Thats a big reason of why I think bowser is so bad. Arguably his best trait (his reduced grab break time) is so much more difficult to impliment then basically everything anybody else has to do to beat bowser. both from a technical proficiency and a in-game situation perspective. .

2 and 3 refer to a moderate and large advantage respectively.

Lucario doesnt have any one move or trait that completely invalidates sonic, its clearly not an unwinnable matchup. its not like he spends half the matchup not getting to play or something. But all of his traits come together to counter all of sonics traits. its clearly AT LEAST, a -2 but its not unwinnable. Even though Espy has never beaten Trela, hes still taken games off of him, which proves my point.

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs is definitely +1 . +2/+3 is insanely wrong.

 

[bubbaking]

Hedgehogs vs Seagulls? .........Fight?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Hedgehogs vs Seagulls? .........Fight?

You have been thread banned for 24 hours.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You have been thread banned for 24 hours.

Is that a thing? SWF might have some good stuff after all...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ICs should be 2nd

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, no Kyokoro, it's not a thing, and that would be kinda messed up. My posts haven't been nearly as bad as those of a lot of others around here. I at least try to mix in some serious discussion most of the time.

Edit: And I agree with Jebus.

Edit 2: And I'm not Doc King. :-|

Edit 3: And all of Hyrule+ Tier should be tied.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lolz, no Kyokoro, it's not a thing, and that would be kinda messed up. My posts haven't been nearly as bad as those of a lot of others around here. I at least try to mix in some serious discussion most of the time.

And so, my hope has been crushed....

Edit: And I agree with Jebus.

Depending on the stagelist, they could be first.

Edit 2: And I'm not Doc King. :-|

You're not exactly doing a great job proving it.

Edit 3: And all of Hyrule+ Tier should be tied.

Unlike the MBR, the BBR apparently do care about technicalities and small, apparently irrelevant stuff. Even if it is wrong because of lack of data...

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Cus it really sounds like you dont quite have the correct understanding on what dictates a certain matchup number.

Ok I read it and I'm still going to stick to my logic of it. I don't use smashboards often (obviously) although I do respect your insight on matchup point system.

I just personally think having any sort of advantage in a matchup should make it a +1, and having any sort of tactic that shuts down a character makes it +2/+3. I don't feel that Sonic has some sort of repetitive tactic that he can go to in virtually every situation vs Bowser, and that Bowser DOES have enough tools in his kit. There just isn't enough character representation from Bowser. I'd bet $10 you'd have a different outlook on the matchup if you played KingKong. Whereas ICs vs Ganon you can just blizzard desync and Ganon gets completely shut down. That's a +3. A +2 would be your example of Pikachu/Fox. The reason it's not a +3 is because you have to actually get a grab. And it's going to be REALLY obvious that Pikachu is trying to get a grab. <__< It's just like ICs with a different moveset. It's not like Sonic can continually keep fthrowing him over and over again or some ****, lol. There's absolutely nothing Sonic has that's completely dominate in the matchup to make it +2 or anything higher.

If it's a +2/+3 for Sonic, is it comparable to Fox vs Pikachu? Is there some sort of thing that I'm blatantly forgetting in the specific Bowser matchup? I'm PRETTY sure we can't just fthrow cg him to 110%

 

[Cassius.]

Dont even bother to play David, KID. I'm the better Bowser. He's probably/definitely more experienced in the Sonic MU (and maybe a better player) buuuuuuut...yeah.



I also think it's only +1 but at this point the only way to come to a mutual understanding would really be to play some matches. Meek and I have talked about the match up before and I read your arguments during the panel discussion last year(?), which did not go well for Sonic at all, but I still feel a certain way about it.

There are videos of Zigsta playing Cloud/Kuraudo on youtube but I still feel like Zigsta never reached Bowser's limit in potential (stop it.), and as a result, I have no idea what to think.

It's why a lot of times I usually just keep my mouth shut during huge discussions like these and only correct people when their facts aren't straight. Opinions are opinions, and the only real way to make any progress is to play the game.

 

[Lukingordex]

Edit 3: And all of Hyrule+ Tier should be tied.

No.

Jiggly > Zelda > Link > Ganon

(I love Ganon but I have to admit,he's bad.)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Jiggly > Link > Ganon > Zelda
Meta Knight > Ice Climbers > Snake > Olimar/Diddy Kong

 

[Iota]

Jiggly > Link > Ganon > Zelda
Meta Knight > Ice Climbers > Olimar/Diddy Kong > Snake

Fixed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I really like Snake okay jeeze get off my back wowzers

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What do you guys think you know about Link? You think you know a lot but you don't actually know really much at all about him, right?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't know a lot about Link.

 

[Lukingordex]

What do you guys think you know about Link? You think you know a lot but you don't actually know really much at all about him, right?

I know he's worse than Jiggly,not sure about Zelda.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You don't know that. You don't know anything about Link.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Actually I've played a lot of Link, and I don't think he's that bad at all. I think he's definitely better than jiggs, but admittedly, I am terrible with jiggs. People think he's way worse than he actually is.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I cannot figure out why he consistently keep getting rated so poorly. I know there is a ton of competition above him, but I never understood how Falcon or Jiggs could be placed above him.

 

[Lukingordex]

Too many Link fanboys on this thread...

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Your insight into Link as a character is astounding. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We are all more informed as a result of your post.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^lol

Puff is definitely better than Link no question.
Cause I at least understand Link enough to know when he gets completely shut down, and top tier does it to him a lot more than they can to Puff.

With that said, I think his MU vs. Falco is underrated as ****

 

[Lukingordex]

I really have to explain why Jiggly is better than Link?

Many people already done it before. (plus I am febrile,I do not feel like posting that much...)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So everyody who thinks Link is underrated is a "fanboy" now? Guess that makes you a Jiggs fanboy then just because.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I really have to explain why Jiggly is better than Link?

Many people already done it before. (plus I am febrile,I do not feel like posting that much...)

Yes, you do have to explain it. At least Grim gave an opinion based on his own knowledge and experience. You, on the other hand just said "lol, I shouldn't have to explain it because everyone already knows it" which is just terrible. If you don't feel like coming up with reasoning of your own, the least you could do is provide reasoning from other people. Otherwise, why are you posting?

 

[bubbaking]

See, you guys are proving my point right now. Shameless self-plug:

Serious suggestion for the BBR. Consider my post that referenced the MBR's tenth tier list.
[COLLAPSE="Former Melee Tier List"]

We don't have to give last place to just ONE character. We could always do what the MBR did for their tenth tier list.

[/COLLAPSE]
Tie everyone in Hyrule+ Tier. There isn't enough representation, top level results, and understanding of those characters to reasonably decide who should legitimately be above the rest. As of now, the entire Hyrule+ tier should be considered tied, or at least close enough to be considered tied. All I'm seeing now in this thread is that each Low Tier's mains think their char should be higher than he/she is now because they main the character.

About what I was talking about earlier, regarding Hyrule+ Tier, if this tier list was truly supposed to be influenced greatly by tournament results, especially by success/popularity, then Ganon shouldn't have ended up last AGAIN for the fifth tier list in a row. Looking at the data that went directly into the creation of this tier list, Ganon won more money than Zelda. Not only that, his Money/Popularity is greater than both Zelda's AND Link's. In fact, these two pieces of data for Ganon are on the same level as Falcon and they're much better than Bowser's. The Money/Popularity data alone for Ganon is better than that of practically every character above him all the way into Mid Tier. Of course, results don't say, explain, or prove everything, especially with such a small sample size (not many play Hyrule+ chars seriously). That is why other things should be taken into account, like how good these chars' best players are and how often they play other top/high players. The problem is that there isn't enough data regarding these other things. These chars' MUs with each other and with other also 'somewhat obscure' chars (every char below Upper Mid Tier is somewhat obscure) are not very well-known or understood and these characters as characters are also not fully understood. In light of such circumstances, either Ganon shouldn't be last (results) or everyone in Hyrule+ Tier should be tied.

It makes perfect sense, guys.

 

[ぱみゅ]

With that said, I think his MU vs. Falco is underrated as ****

His MU agaist Snake is pretty evenish, Marth could be even if Link weren't that bad at recoverying (and that's true for him against many MTs).

 

[bubbaking]

You're not exactly doing a great job proving it.

You don't prove these things. People should just know. I truly don't see how I could be put into the same league as him. What? Is it just because I like to make long posts? Well, crucify me, I don't remember when that became a crime.

Unlike the MBR, the BBR apparently do care about technicalities and small, apparently irrelevant stuff. Even if it is wrong because of lack of data...

Who are they servicing, themselves or us? Because we shouldn't care about irrelevant stuff, not on a competitive level, and especially not with such a glaring lack of data. At least Melee has almost a decade of experience to its name.

 

[Lukingordex]

So everyody who thinks Link is underrated is a "fanboy" now? Guess that makes you a Jiggs fanboy then just because.

That was just a joke,do not take it seriously.

Yes, you do have to explain it. At least Grim gave an opinion based on his own knowledge and experience. You, on the other hand just said "lol, I shouldn't have to explain it because everyone already knows it" which is just terrible. If you don't feel like coming up with reasoning of your own, the least you could do is provide reasoning from other people. Otherwise, why are you posting?

Ok you got me,it's because I'm bad at explaining things.

I'll try if you want:

I give special attention to the character's MUs,so I don't care too much about tournaments results.That's probably the reason of our different opinions.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Except I don't main link. I think he's underrated because he's underrated. I've played around with all the low/bottom tier characters at some point. I don't think Link is among the worst of them. Zelda and Jiggs are the only ones I don't particularly have the hang of, so I can't speak to how good they really are based on my own experience. I'm of the opinion that they're terrible, but I've seen them get used by others far better than by me. I still think Link is superior to them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link is pretty underrated but underrated doesn't mean good.

 

[bubbaking]

Whereas ICs vs Ganon you can just blizzard desync and Ganon gets completely shut down. That's a +3.

But the MU chart clearly states that (exact) kind of MU as a +4...

A +2 would be your example of Pikachu/Fox.

And this as a +3. Is your MU system missing a value, like +4, 'cause that's how you make it sound. If that is seriously the case, then this is just another example showing what I was saying. Too many people mis-interpret the +/- value system or hold their own definitions of this "small advantage", "medium advantage" crap. The ratio system wasn't liable to such nonsense.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I didn't say Link should be mid tier or anything. He's just better than people give him credit for.

 

[Life]

Could the real matchup number system please stand up?

Also, I think all four of H+ are underrated (Zelda's probably the worst IMO but it's hard to say).

 

[ぱみゅ]

You don't prove these things. People should just know. I truly don't see how I could be put into the same league as him. What? Is it just because I like to make long posts? Well, crucify me, I don't remember when that became a crime.

That was the joke part of the post.
Also, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfZpQYC0RXc
At least the part about proving negatives, you should check it.

Who are they servicing, themselves or us? Because we shouldn't care about irrelevant stuff, not on a competitive level, and especially not with such a glaring lack of data. At least Melee has almost a decade of experience to its name.

You'll be surprised about how many people would get mad if BBR comes with "we didn't analyze this because we don't care, so you shouldn't", what kind of serious informative thread, like the MU Chart or the Tier List, would have that?
The way I see it, the BBR wants to inform people about this stuff, with the most possible accuracy. and keeps adding people because we still don't have all of the data needed for that.
/twocents.

 

[BJN39]

See, you guys are proving my point right now. Shameless self-plug:


It makes perfect sense, guys.

Just bringing this up, (Or, at least what was in the second collapse about money earned.) Zelda has won more money than Bowser, Link, Jiggs, Ganon, and CF combined this year.

And she won a MK legal tourney.

 

[bubbaking]

^lol

Puff is definitely better than Link no question.
Cause I at least understand Link enough to know when he gets completely shut down, and top tier does it to him a lot more than they can to Puff.

With that said, I think his MU vs. Falco is underrated as ****

You didn't really give any reasoning here, and you already admitted previously that you don't know much about Link at all. Therefore, your opinion is as heavily theory-based as you like to accuse my opinions of being. I'd personally rather get +4'd (questionably) by Falco and have relatively few -3's anywhere than be +4'd by G&W and have -3's all across the Top Tier board (and just as many as Link below Top).

Except I don't main link. I think he's underrated because he's underrated. I've played around with all the low/bottom tier characters at some point. I don't think Link is among the worst of them. Zelda and Jiggs are the only ones I don't particularly have the hang of, so I can't speak to how good they really are based on my own experience. I'm of the opinion that they're terrible, but I've seen them get used by others far better than by me. I still think Link is superior to them.

But see, right there, that's just it. Link may not be as bad as everyone says he is, but that doesn't mean he's not the worst character. The very fact that you don't know much about Zelda and Jiggs means you can't speak authoritatively from experience on whether you truly believe that Link, as a character, is better than them. That's the mistake that a lot of people here are making.

Link is pretty underrated but underrated doesn't mean good.

Pretty much this.