Official BBR Tier List v7

[Lukingordex]

I didn't say Link should be mid tier or anything. He's just better than people give him credit for.

The same happens to Jiggly,that's why I don't think she's worse than Link.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

except that people like Grim, Soul Pech and Papa Mink are always on the boards talking about their character. Link doesn't really have any low tier heroes talking about how great he is. He gets significantly more underrated.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't heavily understand Link, but as I said, I understand his match-ups with top tier well enough to know they are worse than Puff's.

-2 vs. Falco and -1 vs. Diddy is already better than what Link can offer.

And there is no evidence that G&W is -4 for Puff. None.

 

[da K.I.D.]

But the MU chart clearly states that (exact) kind of MU as a +4...



And this as a +3. Is your MU system missing a value, like +4, 'cause that's how you make it sound. If that is seriously the case, then this is just another example showing what I was saying. Too many people mis-interpret the +/- value system or hold their own definitions of this "small advantage", "medium advantage" crap. The ratio system wasn't liable to such nonsense.

The normal text part of the post is what ive been getting at and explains my position perfectly

however the bolded part, you are full of crap sir, it was not even ten pages ago, on how we had this big discussion of how apperently everyone had a different opinion on what a 60-40 matchup was supposed to mean, remember?

Just bringing this up, (Or, at least what was in the second collapse about money earned.) Zelda has won more money than Bowser, Link, Jiggs, Ganon, and CF combined this year.

And she won a MK legal tourney.

who the hell let this happen?

 

[Lukingordex]

And there is no evidence that G&W is -4 for Puff. None.

Isn't it because jiggly can be killed at 50% and has trouble to hit him?

I never discussed this MU before,I'm just asking.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, didn't we just talk about the G&Wuff MU? It was established that Jiggs can't get past bair, nair, and dtilt, and the first two things could also set up for his kill moves (which kill Jiggs disgustingly early).

Edit: And Puff's supposedly good follow-up game doesn't have much merit against G&W, a character with a good momentum-cancel, great recovery, and a great ledge and planking game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's because in 2008 people looked at the MU and said "Hmm... G&W has strong KO moves and Puff is light. Dtilt beats her standard approach and G&W is good in the air and Puff's only strength is her air game"

Of course, I could say the same thing about several match-ups that I consider -2 or -3 and consistently win. No one has looked at the MU in-depth.



Bubba: lol at bair destroying Puff and linking into KO moves. You are showing again why you shouldn't comment on a match-up involving two characters you don't use- surprise, surprise.

 

[Shaya]

G&W zoning with weaving "here's my fair about 2-3 character lengths away from you, good luck" is pretty daunting. Back air is a free ticket for puff but forward air is NOT.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Even with that said, +4 sounds like a huge stretch. G&W generally doesn't seem to be good enough a character to have +3 match-ups, let alone +4.

 

[bubbaking]

That's horrible logic, Gheb. "This character sucks. He can't possibly have such a good MU." That's like saying DK is too good to have a -4 or that DDD is too bad to have two +4's.

That was the joke part of the post.
Also, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfZpQYC0RXc
At least the part about proving negatives, you should check it.

I scrolled through this vid quickly and I saw ponies..... Is this a serious video (or are you trolling me)?

You'll be surprised about how many people would get mad if BBR comes with "we didn't analyze this because we don't care, so you shouldn't", what kind of serious informative thread, like the MU Chart or the Tier List, would have that?
The way I see it, the BBR wants to inform people about this stuff, with the most possible accuracy. and keeps adding people because we still don't have all of the data needed for that.
/twocents.

Fair enough, but I still disagree with it.

I don't heavily understand Link, but as I said, I understand his match-ups with top tier well enough to know they are worse than Puff's.

-2 vs. Falco and -1 vs. Diddy is already better than what Link can offer.

And there is no evidence that G&W is -4 for Puff. None.

I know you think Puff's MUs are better than they are portrayed to be on the BBR MU chart, but you have to understand that the official MU chart currently has a -2 listed for Jiggs:Diddy which is exactly the same value as what's listed for Link:Diddy. Someone could easily make the same argument that you are making, especially since, barring that -4 against Falco, Link's MUs against Top are actually better than Puff's. Someone could also make the argument that Link's MUs are a lot better than they are portrayed to be on the MU chart, and that he's simply underrepresented, just like the one you are making.

however the bolded part, you are full of crap sir, it was not even ten pages ago, on how we had this big discussion of how apperently everyone had a different opinion on what a 60-40 matchup was supposed to mean, remember?

And it was not even ten pages ago when I said that I completely disagreed with your opinion of what a "60-40" MU was supposed to mean and how everyone had a different opinion on what a +2, as opposed to a +3, was supposed to mean, remember?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I scrolled through this vid quickly and I saw ponies..... Is this a serious video (or are you trolling me)?

My response is serious. The original comment of mine was not.
This video is a commentary about a parody they made about a MLP fanfic, but my point is there, even before their commentary. The part about proving negatives is about 2 minutes in.

Fair enough, but I still disagree with it.

Well, I tried.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, fair enough. I will watch...

Bubba: lol at bair destroying Puff and linking into KO moves. You are showing again why you shouldn't comment on a match-up involving two characters you don't use- surprise, surprise.

Grim, will you shut up? We JUST had a discussion on these threads about the MU between G&W and Jiggs. Multiple people other than myself, including Jiggs and G&W mains, stated G&W's bair is also difficult for Jiggs to get past and both bair and nair setup for dsmash when positioned properly. Btw, I use G&W competitively and I've won bracket matches with him. I've even said so on here. I know what I'm talking about with Game. Stop being so eager to say, "You don't use these chars. Don't comment." You don't even know who I use other than DDD. You really sound like a person who needs to be smacked off his high horse right now.

Tl;dr - You're full of crap.

 

[da K.I.D.]

And it was not even ten pages ago when I said that I completely disagreed with your opinion of what a "60-40" MU was supposed to mean and how everyone had a different opinion on what a +2, as opposed to a +3, was supposed to mean, remember?

Its easier to teach everyone the difference between slight, moderate, and large advantages, than it is to determine whether diddy:MK is 55-45 or 60-40

 

[MintyFlesh]

My problem here is that I feel like Puff has such a hard time even getting a clean hit, let alone the lead so that she can run away all match. If she does get the lead, then yeah, things could get very annoying very fast.



Really now? 'Cause last time I heard, he was taking games off of you 'cause you kept falling for fsmash and usmash shenanigans.



Sheesh dude, calm down! No need to get so upset. I already said I'm not that good at this game:

And ftr, I've officially beaten you in Samus dittos and with Sheik. I've also beaten you in friendlies with Doc and Marth and I believe Luigi (not so sure about that last one), and I've never lost to your Marth or your Sheik, though you never used them much. We all know we're bad; we make it a point to emphasize that down at the club. There's no need to get so offended by a little trash talk. From what I see, it happens all the time on these forums.




Someone must have gotten really angry. <__< I've already propped you before for being a notable Marth in our region. Don't expect me to give you overdue respect just because you're a great Brawl player. You suck at Melee. Deal with it. It's not that big a deal.


And ftr, you're wrong about experience. I have plenty of at least mid-level experience in this game, and I'd like to think that I have quite a bit of high-level experience as well, what with playing against John12346 and Nuke so much, as well as playing brackets against Luigisama, Fatal, and a bunch of other notable players. I'm sorry if I pissed you off, but you don't need to get back at me by saying things that simply aren't true.

I'll money match him for any amount of money, stop meat riding. You seem to forget these are FRIENDLIES. I don't try hard in friendlies like you. I've played other really good Ikes before, such as San in his peak, and while your friend is a nice guy, they aren't on the same skill level at all.

Good job, you beat me in a game I don't play, and that I've NEVER went to a tournament for, and have no experience in. Despite ALL this, you dropped games to me. How do you have the right to say I suck?

Losing to fatal 0-2 doesn't mean you have high level experience, it means you survived long enough by beating low level players to get 0-2ed to a decent player. How is what I said untrue??? EVERY tournament you enter, you always place towards the bottom. What NOTABLE players have you ever beaten in brawl, that are universally known in other regions? I'm fairly certain it's none. Stop posting in a tier list thread, it's made for people who know what they're talking about. You can't possibly discuss the metagame like you have any useful insight >.>

 

[Iota]

Uuh..Wat. Just cause he lost his experience against the good players in/near his region doesn't count? Lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

Good job, you beat me in a game I don't play, and that I've NEVER went to a tournament for, and have no experience in. Despite ALL this, you dropped games to me. How do you have the right to say I suck?

For the record, Im bad at melee. Im a smart person in general, so I beat stupid people but im not good at the game. But I tell my region that they are all bad all the time, even the ones that beat me.

Being bad doesnt forfeit your right to acknowledge other people as bad. You dont have to be skilled at something to recognise that someone else is unskilled.

 

[Life]

Being bad doesnt forfeit your right to acknowledge other people as bad. You dont have to be skilled at something to recognise that someone else is unskilled.

+1

tenplusones

 

[bubbaking]

Ah, here we go. Even Alphicans said that G&W bodes Jiggs. For anyone who would like to see the fruits of our recent Jiggs vs G&W discussion:
[collapse=G&W destroys Jiggs.]

About the G&W:Jiggs MU, I honestly thought that MU was +3 simply because G&W's bair shut down Jiggs even harder than DDD's. Really simple thinking, I know, but I honestly couldn't think of an answer from Jiggs for Game's bair.

It's dtilt and nair that really **** up jiggs. That and a read with a smash attack kills at like 55-60%

Bair isn't a problem for anyone who has learnt to SDI.
Nair isn't that big a worry for anyone who has learnt to bait and punish.

Smash attacks, dtilt, and his other aerials are bigger problems.

Please go ahead and SDI bair all the time. This is a good setup for a dsmash so go ahead.
Nair is crazy, it covers all around GW where Puff can't do much about it and we can immediately land and throw a Dtilt. That alone gives Puff a lot of trouble. Not to mention nair does a lot of damage by itself. We need like 3 dairs and a dtilt to be able to kill. And yes we have those kill setups from a grab as well. It's not like it's impossible for Puff to do anything, but the risk vs reward here is comparable to Snakes tilts. And please don't fall for that Praxis bull**** about bair being ****, it's just not true. Bair is great.

Ah yes the "sdi beats gaw" argument. Not much I can say to this other than you're mostly wrong unless you wanna be a ***** about it.

Bait and punish nair? You're going to need to say more about this.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I've combo'd weak nair (last weak hits) into dsmash with G&W before.

This works in the same way as the bair one I mentioned. If they SDI out so that they won't be hit by the landing hitbox, it's an easy followup.

[/collapse]

Despite ALL this, you dropped games to me. How do you have the right to say I suck?

I dropped one rankings game to you, buddy, just one.

For the record, Im bad at melee. Im a smart person in general, so I beat stupid people but im not good at the game. But I tell my region that they are all bad all the time, even the ones that beat me.

Being bad doesnt forfeit your right to acknowledge other people as bad. You dont have to be skilled at something to recognise that someone else is unskilled.

Exactly. Stop being salty about it, man. I suck. So do you. End of story. You don't see Dabuz getting all upset about me saying he sucks at Melee.

Losing to fatal 0-2 doesn't mean you have high level experience, it means you survived long enough by beating low level players to get 0-2ed to a decent player. How is what I said untrue??? EVERY tournament you enter, you always place towards the bottom. What NOTABLE players have you ever beaten in brawl, that are universally known in other regions? I'm fairly certain it's none. Stop posting in a tier list thread, it's made for people who know what they're talking about. You can't possibly discuss the metagame like you have any useful insight >.>

Ftr, there are exactly five tournaments that I have not placed "towards the bottom in", four of which I advanced up to the QFs in and three of which I advanced up to the GFs in. I am not claiming to be any better than an overall mid level player, but I do believe that I have some high level experience. I've taken multiple competitive games off of John12346. I believe taking Fatal to last stock (high %'s during the first game) says something as well. It is your kind of elitist BS that really disgusts me and harms the community. I never claim to know more than the experts unless they clearly don't know much about my character.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Grim, will you shut up? We JUST had a discussion on these threads about the MU between G&W and Jiggs. Multiple people other than myself, including Jiggs and G&W mains, stated G&W's bair is also difficult for Jiggs to get past and both bair and nair setup for dsmash when positioned properly. Btw, I use G&W competitively and I've won bracket matches with him. I've even said so on here. I know what I'm talking about with Game. Stop being so eager to say, "You don't use these chars. Don't comment." You don't even know who I use other than DDD. You really sound like a person who needs to be smacked off his high horse right now.

Tl;dr - You're full of crap.

I was wondering when you'd crack : P

The people who told you Jigglypuff has trouble with bair are misinformed. I don't know who you're talking about, but I can almost guarantee their thinking was something like "hurr durr Bair outranges Puff's aerials gg" - which is, like always, too simplistic.

Let's imagine the standard full hop bair spacing wall/approach. Keeping in mind that G&W doesn't really have any offensive mix-ups from this position... If he moves into Puff she can air dodge through on reaction and get frame advantage. This is a fact, and it leads to a guaranteed grab or potentially worse; dair.

If G&W is aware of this then he can do the bair in place or retreating - but if Puff doesn't take the bait then she is put in a favourable position (at worst for G&W, he is grabbed/bair'd, at best he is forced to shield, spot-dodge or throw out an attack).

So G&W can mix those two styles of spacing up, but Puff has a reactionary answer to both. If she gets read, she SDIs out immediately with ease and is barely harmed at all; while G&W will take at least 10% and relinquish all momentum to Puff.

I can cover SH bair as well, if you think that is any more effective.

Oh and the fact that you think G&W's bair can combo into a KO move in 2012... Against Puff of all characters kind-of invalidates all those bracket matches you've won.



EDIT: So the response to this will clearly be "even if you SDI out of bair, it still links into things - can I see some video evidence of this please?

To clarify, I'm not one of those people who thinks G&W loses to SDI, but it definitely makes bair non-spammable - anyone who has played G&W since before people SDI'd could tell you that.

 

[bubbaking]

I have no video evidence, but I've definitely comboed G&W's nair into dsmash before, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing was possible for bair for similar reasons.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Nair auto cancels very easily, doesn't last anywhere near as long and knocks people into hitstun a lot closer to his body.

The notion that bair could combo against a light, small character with multiple jumps and godly aerial mobility is absurd.



Oh yeah, it's funny to think that Nair beats Puff when her bair cleanly out-ranges it. Not that anyone will believe that, because "Puff has no range, G&W is aaalllllllll disjoints", but it's pretty clear from looking at hitboxes or actually playing the game.

Maybe now people will believe me when I say this character is misunderstood? Iunno.

 

[Dre89]

Even if Puff doesn't lose to bair, she still loses convincingly to GaW.

The problem is with people theorycrafting about their mains is that they talk about situations where their character knows the MU and uses creative mix ups, but the opponent just does their signature attacks without any thought or adaption.q

A GaW who knows the MU and is creative will destroy a Puff because he's nearly as mobile, wins every trade, and KOs much earlier.

 

[Jimmy?]

I think the point wasn't that Jigglypuff +4s GaW, but that GaW doesn't +4 Jigglypuff.

No opinion on the matter (I play neither character), but the argument has, like always, begun to stray off track.

 

[Seagull Joe]

is the best character in the game. Followed by . Then .

 

[Nike.]

Where would Jigglypuff be on the tier list if she had melee rest?

 

[Tesh]

Even if Puff doesn't lose to bair, she still loses convincingly to GaW.

The problem is with people theorycrafting about their mains is that they talk about situations where their character knows the MU and uses creative mix ups, but the opponent just does their signature attacks without any thought or adaption.q

A GaW who knows the MU and is creative will destroy a Puff because he's nearly as mobile, wins every trade, and KOs much earlier.

God this is so true, I've seen so many low tier matchup discussions citing how MK/Snake/Falco will always be super obvious and fall into complex perfectly spaced nonsense 6 stocks in a row.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Where would Jigglypuff be on the tier list if she had melee rest?

She would still have trouble landing it, and it would only polarize Martchups, like DDD's chaingrab, or Falco's lazors.

 

[Luco]

A +1 matchup is still a pretty big advantage. It means that you have to get outplayed by someone who is (probably) a better player then you to lose the matchup.

Actually a +/- 1 isn't that big an advantage (as clearly seen by the '+/-1 = small advantage' )... it means that one character benefits slightly more off a certain situation than the other char and means that you can be outplayed by someone making some good reads, like KID said. Basically it means that with a little bit of extra effort you can prevail.

that's how I see it anyway.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Even if Puff doesn't lose to bair, she still loses convincingly to GaW.

The problem is with people theorycrafting about their mains is that they talk about situations where their character knows the MU and uses creative mix ups, but the opponent just does their signature attacks without any thought or adaption.q

A GaW who knows the MU and is creative will destroy a Puff because he's nearly as mobile, wins every trade, and KOs much earlier.

Oh, no doubt. I can even see the match-up as -3, I'm just saying that there is no reason to believe it's unwinnable.

I think the point wasn't that Jigglypuff +4s GaW, but that GaW doesn't +4 Jigglypuff.

No opinion on the matter (I play neither character), but the argument has, like always, begun to stray off track.

Yes.

She would still have trouble landing it, and it would only polarize Martchups, like DDD's chaingrab, or Falco's lazors.

Also yes.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

It's because in 2008 people looked at the MU and said "Hmm... G&W has strong KO moves and Puff is light. Dtilt beats her standard approach and G&W is good in the air and Puff's only strength is her air game"

Of course, I could say the same thing about several match-ups that I consider -2 or -3 and consistently win. No one has looked at the MU in-depth.



Bubba: lol at bair destroying Puff and linking into KO moves. You are showing again why you shouldn't comment on a match-up involving two characters you don't use- surprise, surprise.

I might be days late but i just wanna throw this in here before i crash.

IT has nothing to do with 08.
I started in 2010.
I personally had it changed in 2011 to -4 from -3.
All GW has to do is spam Nair and Bair. His aerials beat ours and his smashes kill us at 50% with Dthrow forcing a tech or getting a guaranteed Dsmash.


I guess i could see it as a -3.
But compare it to her other -3s.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you are losing purely to nair and bair and getting consistently grabbed then you need to stop being so linear

sorry to be harsh but them's the breaks

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

You're argument was dumb.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

My are argument was dumb? NEVER.

Seriously though how can nair beat us when, I stress again, we out-range it?

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Have you seen the Nair hitbox? It's for when you are above. We can bair you all day.

That and uair just trolls, we can keep you up with no problem at all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff shouldn't be consistently getting hit by attacks from below; nair is no exception.
And yeah, I'm pretty familiar with nair's hitbox. But just in case I was talking out of my ***, I decided to check it out.

Hm.

Uair? Please, she can just come from the side and/or air dodge through it. I mean, sure, it can be annoying - but we're trying to find things that make this MU -4.

I already explained why bair doesn't work like you are suggesting.

 

[MintyFlesh]

Ah, here we go. Even Alphicans said that G&W bodes Jiggs. For anyone who would like to see the fruits of our recent Jiggs vs G&W discussion:
[collapse=G&W destroys Jiggs.]





[/collapse]



I dropped one rankings game to you, buddy, just one.



Exactly. Stop being salty about it, man. I suck. So do you. End of story. You don't see Dabuz getting all upset about me saying he sucks at Melee.



Ftr, there are exactly five tournaments that I have not placed "towards the bottom in", four of which I advanced up to the QFs in and three of which I advanced up to the GFs in. I am not claiming to be any better than an overall mid level player, but I do believe that I have some high level experience. I've taken multiple competitive games off of John12346. I believe taking Fatal to last stock (high %'s during the first game) says something as well. It is your kind of elitist BS that really disgusts me and harms the community. I never claim to know more than the experts unless they clearly don't know much about my character.

Broski im far from an elitist, btw almost DOESN'T COUNT. Just the fact taht I was able to take a game off you speaks volumes about what I'm discussing. I just don't think you have the right to discuss in this thread, you have beaten nobody could (again, taking "competitive" games off of John numbers doesn't give you high tourney experiecnce, dude sandbags all the time. You simply DONT HAVE any releative insight, like most people in this thread. Hell, I have like no insight about the current metagame except for a few match ups, and here YOU are discussing the whole tier list. I don't think you're helping the cause. Respond to me in pm, I don't want to cause too mcuh of a scene

 

[bubbaking]

Oh yeah, it's funny to think that Nair beats Puff when her bair cleanly out-ranges it. Not that anyone will believe that, because "Puff has no range, G&W is aaalllllllll disjoints", but it's pretty clear from looking at hitboxes or actually playing the game.

Maybe now people will believe me when I say this character is misunderstood? Iunno.

I'm not saying you're wrong (I rarely say that outright), but I'd like to know exactly how disjointed is Puff's bair? Does her bair's disjoint outrange G&W nair's disjoint (most of the move), because unless the disjoint of Puff's bair out-ranges G&W's nair, she doesn't "cleanly out-range it." If it's the foot itself that's out-ranging anything, you're getting a trade, and Watch doesn't mind trades, not in this MU at least.

Where would Jigglypuff be on the tier list if she had melee rest.

Probably only a spot or two higher than she is now, if even that. It wouldn't do much to improve her kill power, because the move would still be hard to set up and probably wouldn't factor much into a great deal of her MUs. Not only that, Melee rest in a Brawl setting wouldn't be nearly as effective as one would think at first, thanks to hitstun and momentum cancelling. That being said, it would still be tons better than Brawl Puff's rest.

Oh, no doubt. I can even see the match-up as -3, I'm just saying that there is no reason to believe it's unwinnable.

I think the point wasn't that Jigglypuff +4s GaW, but that GaW doesn't +4 Jigglypuff.

No opinion on the matter (I play neither character), but the argument has, like always, begun to stray off track.

Yes.

Hey, to be perfectly fair, I never said that I believed G&W has a +4 against Jiggs as indicated by my quote below:

About the G&W:Jiggs MU, I honestly thought that MU was +3

What I did say is that the official MU chart says that G&W:Jiggs is a +4, and I used that in my argument relating Jiggs and Link because, unless we fall to heavy theorycrafting about characters we don't know much about, we should only be using decided-on statistics that can be cited from authoritative sources.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You put waaayyy too much stock in the BBR/MU panels/whatever. I'd namesearch Fuujin for Zelda's match-ups... but he's super banned :/

And yes, Puff's bair's disjoint out-ranges the disjoint of G&W's nair. If you look at the hitbox, it's actually a lot less disjointed than you would think. The move's duration, and the fishes are deceptive in that respect.

 

[bubbaking]

But if you're trying to bair me from the side........don't you have to get past the fishes?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

At the start of the move (when Puff is most likely to bair it, due to the way the two characters space) there are no fishes, and at the end the fishes are too low to protect him.

All she needs to do is abuse her aerial mobility to either get in quick or wait it out.