Official BBR Tier List v7

[Luco]

'Mario is really really F***ing bad'

^ So is Lucas but some people are deluded into believing he's mid tier.

I think anything I try to say here will be counted off as bias. :/

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll say it then. Lucas is bottom of mid tier (y)

 

[Luco]

I might just be seeing this for my own purposes but doesn't Lucas get results where Mario... doesn't?

*puts up fire-proof shield*

 

[PMC66]

Both characters are low tier, below average, and bad. If BBR really made tier lists solely from tournament results i wouldn't have a problem with lucas being mid tier but his matchups are laughably bad which counter balance how well he does in tournies so for the only way Lucas to get mid tier is for the BBR to vote him there. if they do they're idiots, and i'll loose all respect for the current existing body that makes this April Fools joke of a decision.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The problem with Jigglypuff is that it's far from established that her match-ups against character X are better than those of Ganondord, Zelda or other bottom tier charaters. Mediocre theorycraft of a nobody from who-knows-where [that hardly anybody even bothers to argue with] doesn't all of a sudden make her a better character and it's in no way safe to assume that she actually *is* only -1 against Diddy or -2 against Falco. Those numbers, as well as her current standing in the low-/bottom-tier metagame are entirely hypothetical, if not mythological.

In Ganon's case at least, we have things that allow us to give him the benefit of the doubt as there are instances of him doing remarkeably well against high/top tier characters played by high/top tier players [ie Fonz beating AlphaZealot's Diddy with Ganon and taking ADHD to last stock in a MM]. I'm sure there are other characters with similar achievements [ie ven beating RB for Zelda] but as far as I know Jigglypuff doesn't belong into that category. In the four and a half years of Brawl's existence she has given us virtually nothing that would even slightly hint at her being underrated in any way. No other character has such a drastic lack of achievements.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Puffster took Nairo to last hit last stock on Brinstar, MK vs Puff.

But regardless, Puff, Zelda, and Ganon are def the 3 worst.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That match is such a joke Z'z

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Puffster took Nairo to last hit last stock on Brinstar, MK vs Puff.

So one mere game off a top level MK player on Brinstar is the best this character has to offer?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yes.

Hence why shes bad.

You act like im trying to contradict you or something lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nah, you misunderstand me. It was a rhetorical question to hit the point I [and you] were making home.

 

[SoulPech]

I did?

Maybe my memory is shot...

Too lazy to find, but yesterday you said something like:

"Don't let the Tier Monsters get to you "

so I interpreted it as tiers are for queers.

 

[Cassius.]

Being big, having no projectile, and relying on a weeny recovery is kind of the worst combination of traits in this game. Hitboxes are nice though. I could see him in the same tier, but he's obviously a much much worse character than Mario.

No way. Nononononononononono

 

[SoulPech]

Well there is me; the only competitive Puff main, as far as I know - who didn't get picked because I live in Australia, would disagree with the other panelists too often and haven't sucked Mink's ****.

I main Puff

 

[SoulPech]

Grim. Espy is on my panel because his puff is good and I picked him.

Anyone on the puff panel is because I put them there.

I guess my Puff is bad then.

 

[Luco]

Both characters are low tier, below average, and bad. If BBR really made tier lists solely from tournament results i wouldn't have a problem with lucas being mid tier but his matchups are laughably bad which counter balance how well he does in tournies so for the only way Lucas to get mid tier is for the BBR to vote him there. if they do they're idiots, and i'll loose all respect for the current existing body that makes this April Fools joke of a decision.

I'd say that if anything the top players that use him only prove that some of those match-ups aren't so terri-bad after all. I need to check a few things but i'll elaborate in a sec.

For instance, Pika's like -1 or maybe even 0 and personally I don't see how sheilda is -3 when sheik is -3 and Zelda is +1... I suspect ICs are -1 and i'm reasonably sure Bowser's a 0 (from discussion with bowsers I think we agreed on that), probably Ness too...

the Lucas panel will sort the most pressing issues out but I think the changes in Lucas' MU's will be really notable.

 

[BlueXenon]

I don't think Lucas should be a low tier because a lucas main got 9th place at a major tournament. I don't remember other low tiers doing that, but I don't check result threads a lot.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I guess my Puff is bad then.

What are you talking about? You're on the panel lol.

And grim I didn't pick you because all you do is blind theory craft.

Gheb, I have many videos vs falco and high tier characters with puff.
Get your facts straight. Infact. I think falco v puff is -1 and is my best mu with her.

 

[SoulPech]

What are you talking about? You're on the panel lol.

And grim I didn't pick you because all you do is blind theory craft.

Gheb, I have many videos vs falco and high tier characters with puff.
Get your facts straight. Infact. I think falco v puff is -1 and is my best mu with her.

Yeah I know. I'm just screwin' around. Also, I agree w/Mink on the Falco MU.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

And the main reason i don't main puff is because she's bad.

Plus, if anyone has seen my results i play like, 9 diff characters.


It's not because my puff isn't good. Or because i'm not confident with her, if anyone saw my performance at WABA they would know my puff is my best character.

Other characters just tend to be fun, and there are some MU's i work better with other characters.
Like against hahaha

 

[bubbaking]

Regional threats don't have the sheer results power of the higher threats, but they usually are decent at nationals, and are regular powerhouses at regionals. My only possible change would be MAYBE adding Wolf and TL.

Not bragging about my main, but DDD should definitely be up there with the other Regional Threats. Players like Coney and Atomsk have already done work and shown this. He probably deserves to up there more than TL and probably more than Wolf.

Being big, having no projectile, and relying on a weeny recovery is kind of the worst combination of traits in this game. Hitboxes are nice though. I could see him in the same tier, but he's obviously a much much worse character than Mario.

From toying around with Mario a lot lately, I really don't know if that's true. Bowser has some strength behind his hits. Mario, to me, seems to have a really hard time killing. You have to land the stutter fsmash or pray that you didn't stale usmash and dsmash, even though you should be using those to rack up damage in a lot of MUs. Stubby limbs = less range than Bowser, too.

I don't know if Bowser is worse than Mario. Mario is really, really ****ing bad.

This.

Grim, if I beat your Jiggs with G&W with just jab/grab/fair/nair/bair/hard read smashes/bucketing to survive can we all agree Jiggs loses really really badly? I don't think air dodging in works either

Is the point of this to purposefully ignore dtilt? If so, those terms are quite agreeable...

As someone who plays both characters, no. Theyre pretty even.

I think the point of all the Bowser-Mario discussion is not how well they do against each other. It's how well they compare to each other as characters compared to the rest of the cast. Point in case, DDD destroys Wario, but he's probably not a better character.

'Mario is really really F***ing bad'

^ So is Lucas but some people are deluded into believing he's mid tier.

Lucas's recovery is a lot better and more reliable than Ness's, I feel, and recovery is arguably Ness's greatest weakness after GR shenanigans. Idk, I feel that Lucas is at least 'Luigi-level good' from watching his play.

 

[PMC66]

I'd say that if anything the top players that use him only prove that some of those match-ups aren't so terri-bad after all. I need to check a few things but i'll elaborate in a sec.

For instance, Pika's like -1 or maybe even 0 and personally I don't see how sheilda is -3 when sheik is -3 and Zelda is +1... I suspect ICs are -1 and i'm reasonably sure Bowser's a 0 (from discussion with bowsers I think we agreed on that), probably Ness too...

the Lucas panel will sort the most pressing issues out but I think the changes in Lucas' MU's will be really notable.

oh yes and that will make such a massive improvement to already bad matchups. I'm sorry Lucas mid tier no, i am open minded but i admit at times there are some things i just accept as fact:

such as

Number 1: the Nazis killed alot of people regardless of how they did it.
Number 2: Belzemon is best in digimon rumble arena
Number 3: Sentinel is broken in MVC2.
Number 4: there is no 9/11 consipiracy
Number 5: Ballistic ecks vs Sever is a horribly bland movie

excetera and the top of that list which is opinion which i consider fact, is Lucas being low tier, below average and anyone who thinks other wise is just dumb i'm sorry it's how i'm made. This does not possibly compute this character is geniunely abysmal and not mid tier. Mid implies mediocrity Lucas is worse than mediocrity and anyone who simply applies common sense will realise this.

Low tier does not mean you have no hope Low tiers are viable characters who are simply not up to the standard of the rest of the roster in general. I only believe bottom tier in this game: Link,Bowser, Zelda, Jigglypuff Ganondorf are truly unviable (and maybe captain Falcon), everyone else has some form of glimmer of hope. Even Mario, Samus and Lucas, just because someone does well with a character does not make that character better. We should just celebrate the user of such a character for being talented and devoted and showing us that Low tier s in fighting games in general can be viable.

Making Lucas mid tier wouldn't only be inccorrect but it would undermine the achievements of low tier users everywhere, if because they do well suddenly it's because their character wasn't so bad afterall low tier isn't that bad overall (*cough it is jk).

Matchups fine i think some of Lucases MUs are wrong they're a little bit better than what they are now but come on a character 4 -3 matchups, being mid tier is just silly, and not being feasibly viable in mid tier in general is just silly. Look i loose to Lucas almost the entire time as wolf does it make me think Lucas is a broken character because he beats my main? no i just accept the fact i just suck at the matchup and pick Yoshi and air release chain grab his ***.

Making him mid tier would also be insanely pointless because i know for a fact that he'd just drop. That and nobody earns their character a higher spot it's an illusion stop believing it, at the end of the day theres a governing body, who sift through all the band wagon theories and complete garbage, look at tournament results and come to their own compromised conclusion which nobody is ever truly happy with lol.

I'll laugh if V.8 comes out in April and Lucas is mid i'll just have no geniune respect for anybody who makes such bad decisions regarding tier placements

oh and @Blubbaking LUIGI's LOW TIER AS WELL!

 

[Luco]

oh yes and that will make such a massive improvement to already bad matchups. I'm sorry Lucas mid tier no, i am open minded but i admit at times there are some things i just accept as fact:

such as

Number 1: the Nazis killed alot of people regardless of how they did it.
Number 2: Belzemon is best in digimon rumble arena
Number 3: Sentinel is broken in MVC2.
Number 4: there is no 9/11 consipiracy
Number 5: Ballistic ecks vs Sever is a horribly bland movie

excetera and the top of that list which is opinion which i consider fact, is Lucas being low tier, below average and anyone who thinks other wise is just dumb i'm sorry it's how i'm made. This does not possibly compute this character is geniunely abysmal and not mid tier. Mid implies mediocrity Lucas is worse than mediocrity and anyone who simply applies common sense will realise this.

Actually iirc, if you count down the tier list you'll find Pit is exactly in the middle. technically, everyone in mid is actually 'below average', lol. I also don't see how he's abysmal if he's getting places and other people who don't main him think he should be in mid. Also how exactly is he 'abysmal'? If you told me Ganon or Zelda i'd believe you but aside from GR shenanigans (which are much worse on Ness anyway) he's not that horrific. A lack of range on some stuff, some pretty bad MUs (Marth, DK, Snake are the biggest three IMO)... Low Mids have that as well. What makes him so 'abysmal' in your eyes?

EDIT1: My apologies, R.O.B. is exactly in the middle. Technically everyone below him is below average...

EDIT2: Look over that edit PMC. You haven't told me why he's 'abysmal', all you've done is tell me why he shouldn't be in mid, giving reasons with no supporting evidence, except for the MU data which, frankly I and quite a few people believe to be terribly inaccurate on several MUs.

I know that i'm going in to this with bias but still, when other people are agree-ing with me I have to wonder why you're saying he's 'abysmal'. Give me evidence.

Anyway i'm off to bed, it's seriously late here, i'll probs reply to anything tomorrow. *yawn*

Nighty night.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[QUOTE='[FBC]Gheb, I have many videos vs falco and high tier characters with puff.
Get your facts straight. Infact. I think falco v puff is -1 and is my best mu with her.[/QUOTE]

I entered "Mink Jigglypuff" at youtube to see what I can find. There are three videos of you playing against high level players with Jigglypuff - ScaryLB59, DJ Jack and BigLou.

There are 4 videos of you against ED's Zelda, of which you lose all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCyMXTrTmS4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I26pjxkJts&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SK0iREn8gU&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWs9303dhRY

You claim that Falco is only -1 in your opinion but the only competent Falco you play against in those videos is DJ Jack and he nearly JV 3-stocks you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNkwk3dWVMQ

You also have a set against BigLou up and looking at the 2nd match I even thought for a moment that -1 vs Diddy may not be that unrealistic until I saw game 3 where it became clear that the match-up isn't anywhere near -1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRhdZaw1zqE

So after "getting my facts straight" about what you told me I'm even more convinced now that all those random match-up numbers spewed out by deluded Jigglypuff players time and time again are nothing but wishful thinking.

 

[RaptorTEC]

But Gheb, Puff vs D3 is obviously even.

 

[bubbaking]

I might just be seeing this for my own purposes but doesn't Lucas get results where Mario... doesn't?

*puts up fire-proof shield*

Lucas gets results where a bunch of Mid Tier chars (like Luigi) don't.

Edit: For PMC: and Sheik and Kirby, not just Luigi.

Both characters are low tier, below average, and bad. If BBR really made tier lists solely from tournament results i wouldn't have a problem with lucas being mid tier but his matchups are laughably bad which counter balance how well he does in tournies so for the only way Lucas to get mid tier is for the BBR to vote him there. if they do they're idiots, and i'll loose all respect for the current existing body that makes this April Fools joke of a decision.

You know.....from reading this, I'm starting to understand Gheb's whole problem with most of the discussion going on here and why he decides to stick so blindly to results. I think PMC is like the 'anti-Gheb' or something. The BBR would have to be "idiots" to vote Lucas into Mid Tier? In the words of Viper, that's incredibly bias, man?

The problem with Jigglypuff is that it's far from established that her match-ups against character X are better than those of Ganondord, Zelda or other bottom tier charaters. Mediocre theorycraft of a nobody from who-knows-where [that hardly anybody even bothers to argue with] doesn't all of a sudden make her a better character and it's in no way safe to assume that she actually *is* only -1 against Diddy or -2 against Falco. Those numbers, as well as her current standing in the low-/bottom-tier metagame are entirely hypothetical, if not mythological.

In Ganon's case at least, we have things that allow us to give him the benefit of the doubt as there are instances of him doing remarkeably well against high/top tier characters played by high/top tier players [ie Fonz beating AlphaZealot's Diddy with Ganon and taking ADHD to last stock in a MM]. I'm sure there are other characters with similar achievements [ie ven beating RB for Zelda] but as far as I know Jigglypuff doesn't belong into that category. In the four and a half years of Brawl's existence she has given us virtually nothing that would even slightly hint at her being underrated in any way. No other character has such a drastic lack of achievements.

Agreeing pretty wholeheartedly with Gheb over here. "Mediocre theorycraft of a nobody from who-knows-where [that hardly anybody even bothers to argue with]," hmmmmmmmm.....

That match is such a joke Z'z

What? Should Nairo have done better?

II don't see how sheilda is -3 when sheik is -3 and Zelda is +1...

Well, according to Sheilda logic, Sheilda cannot have any MU worse than the best MU of either Sheik or Zelda. She can have better ones but no worse ones. Of course, some of Sheilda's "better" MUs are a bunch of BS. For instance, it has already been pretty much agreed that Sheilda:DDD should be 0 just like Sheik:DDD. However, Sheilda:DDD being worse than 0 is impossible, even though Zelda:DDD is a -2.

Plus, if anyone has seen my results i play like, 9 diff characters.

............I recounted this. I wanted to see 9 characters...

oh yes and that will make such a massive improvement to already bad matchups. I'm sorry Lucas mid tier no, i am open minded but i admit at times there are some things i just accept as fact

I'm pretty sure what Luco just said would make an "improvement to already bad matchups".....

 

[PMC66]

Actually iirc, if you count down the tier list you'll find Pit is exactly in the middle. technically, everyone in mid is actually 'below average', lol. I also don't see how he's abysmal if he's getting places and other people who don't main him think he should be in mid. Also how exactly is he 'abysmal'? If you told me Ganon or Zelda i'd believe you but aside from GR shenanigans (which are much worse on Ness anyway) he's not that horrific. A lack of range on some stuff, some pretty bad MUs (Marth, DK, Snake are the biggest three IMO)... Low Mids have that as well. What makes him so 'abysmal' in your eyes?

EDIT1: My apologies, R.O.B. is exactly in the middle. Technically everyone below him is below average...

EDIT2: Look over that edit PMC. You haven't told me why he's 'abysmal', all you've done is tell me why he shouldn't be in mid, giving reasons with no supporting evidence, except for the MU data which, frankly I and quite a few people believe to be terribly inaccurate on several MUs.

I know that i'm going in to this with bias but still, when other people are agree-ing with me I have to wonder why you're saying he's 'abysmal'. Give me evidence.

Anyway i'm off to bed, it's seriously late here, i'll probs reply to anything tomorrow. *yawn*

Nighty night.

I don't need to say why he's abysmal go read my post on why Mario is better, not one person argued with it

ROB is low tier lol

 

[bubbaking]

[COLLAPSE="Nonsense"]Low tier does not mean you have no hope Low tiers are viable characters who are simply not up to the standard of the rest of the roster in general. I only believe bottom tier in this game: Link,Bowser, Zelda, Jigglypuff Ganondorf are truly unviable (and maybe captain Falcon), everyone else has some form of glimmer of hope. Even Mario, Samus and Lucas, just because someone does well with a character does not make that character better. We should just celebrate the user of such a character for being talented and devoted and showing us that Low tier s in fighting games in general can be viable.

Making Lucas mid tier wouldn't only be inccorrect but it would undermine the achievements of low tier users everywhere, if because they do well suddenly it's because their character wasn't so bad afterall low tier isn't that bad overall (*cough it is jk).

Matchups fine i think some of Lucases MUs are wrong they're a little bit better than what they are now but come on a character 4 -3 matchups, being mid tier is just silly, and not being feasibly viable in mid tier in general is just silly. Look i loose to Lucas almost the entire time as wolf does it make me think Lucas is a broken character because he beats my main? no i just accept the fact i just suck at the matchup and pick Yoshi and air release chain grab his ***.

Making him mid tier would also be insanely pointless because i know for a fact that he'd just drop. That and nobody earns their character a higher spot it's an illusion stop believing it, at the end of the day theres a governing body, who sift through all the band wagon theories and complete garbage, look at tournament results and come to their own compromised conclusion which nobody is ever truly happy with lol.

I'll laugh if V.8 comes out in April and Lucas is mid i'll just have no geniune respect for anybody who makes such bad decisions regarding tier placements

[/COLLAPSE]oh and @Blubbaking LUIGI's LOW TIER AS WELL!

ROB is low tier lol

Why don't you go ahead and just say all of Mid Tier is low, sheesh! If Lucas is low, and Luigi is low, and even ROB is low, then we might as well finish the job, don't you think?

 

[Luco]

Sorry had to lurk slightly longer.

@Bubba: But that's strange, wouldn't you assume that shielda means that both chars are out there for a good time in the match? If so, I don't see why it has to be better and not worse because it's not like the character with the advantageous MU can stay out there for the whole time, right? Wouldn't that just make it a sole sheik/zelda MU?

Man that's confusing.

@PMC: ??? Are you trolling? o.O

Okay, Goodnight!

 

[ぱみゅ]

You seem to be misunderstanding Sheilda.
I'll elaborate on it later, but you apparently don't know how their MU is supposed to be.

 

[bubbaking]

Sheilda's MU is the best possible MU any combination of Sheik and Zelda could possibly have. Those combinations include 100% Sheik/0% Zelda and vice versa. You try to use them as optimally as possible to take advantage of strengths and eliminate weaknesses.

Edit: Basically, if Zelda would actually take away from a MU of Sheilda's, then Sheilda = Sheik. Conversely, if Sheik would take away from a MU of Sheilda's, then Sheilda = Zelda.

Edit 2: But Sheilda doesn't have to be better than solo Zelda or Sheik, even if she plays a MU differently.

 

[PMC66]

btw my argument for Mario > Luas is on page 398 in case Luco wanted to read it

I think mid tier is fine provided, DK, ROB, Pokemon trainer, Luigi and Ness go down though i think Ness is the best low tier :3.

But yeah i'd have a relatively small mid tier and a big high and low, i think it highlights the discrepency between characters. Though I'd have Tink and D3 in mid tier so it wouldn't be that small lol

 

[bubbaking]

There is no page 398. Max PPP ftw.

Edit: You think Ness is better than DK and ROB?

I personally had it changed in 2011 to -4 from -3.
All GW has to do is spam Nair and Bair. His aerials beat ours and his smashes kill us at 50% with Dthrow forcing a tech or getting a guaranteed Dsmash.


I guess i could see it as a -3.
But compare it to her other -3s.

Speaking of techs, I just remembered that Jiggs is one of the few characters that G&W can cover multiple dthrow tech options against with just one action (an option-select, if you will).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrg4NZ_Z_tQ#t=2m37s
Even more uses for our nair.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Hey, another 5-tier list! Sounds like something we touted the virtues of not too long ago.

The only reason people would never agree to this is because if you renamed the 5 tiers you would get top, high, mid, low and bottom, and that would place roughly half the game in low tier. Which would for some stupid reason, infuriate people, even though it doesnt change anything about the character or their viability.

Unless you took out metaknight tier, and made that god tier. the the following would be top, high, mid, and low. which might work out better.

 

[bubbaking]

People's feelings and whether they become "infuriated" by something should never be a reason to not implement a good idea or concept.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't need to say why he's abysmal go read my post on why Mario is better, not one person argued with it

ROB is low tier lol

btw my argument for Mario > Luas is on page 398 in case Luco wanted to read it

I think mid tier is fine provided, DK, ROB, Pokemon trainer, Luigi and Ness go down though i think Ness is the best low tier :3.

But yeah i'd have a relatively small mid tier and a big high and low, i think it highlights the discrepency between characters. Though I'd have Tink and D3 in mid tier so it wouldn't be that small lol

No one argued with you because they either ignored you or called you stupid for saying something so completely outlandish. Atomsk called you a complete idiot if I recall correctly:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14917933&postcount=6015

Welcome to the first person on my block list. You're too thickheaded to listen to reason and you say utterling blasphemous things.

 

[PMC66]

^ lol not like i spoke to you that much anyway

you mean or on skype?

 

[Delta-cod]

PMC, you're an idiot. Please go prove yourself to be notable and then come back and theorycraft.

Too lazy to find, but yesterday you said something like:

"Don't let the Tier Monsters get to you "

so I interpreted it as tiers are for queers.

Oh, I said something more along the lines of "Don't let the Tier List Thread Monsters get to you" to coax Grim into not being mean and curt with me. + Respect for still dealing with all of it.

 

[PMC66]

^ i'm not theorycrafting Lucas isn't mid tier even by this lists standards

 

[Delta-cod]

>ROB is low tier.

Yeah, no. Bad theorycrafting.

 

[PMC66]

^ oh I don't mind if people disagree on that one tbh I acknowledge i've always been quite harsh on my main lol.