Official BBR Tier List v7

[Z'zgashi]

@Post 10-15 posts back: Marios up b oos is better than Samus'. Just fyi. Like, if I remember correctly, Mario is THE only character who can punish a ZSS dsmash on shield due to that up b.

And Samus > Mario, plus she actually has results (quik).

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Quik is dirty.

 

[Jimmy?]

I know nothing about this game so I only post mocking comments to look cool.

My life is fantastic, yo.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I found my way to this thread pretty late. I was on the MU panel last time for Zelda. It'll probably go better this time lol.

I really don't think Zelda is so bad. That's just me though.

 

[Luco]

Zelda is one of those characters I never would have seen as being at the bottom when I played casually but there are some obvious flaws. IMO my felings about her being second worse are more or less the same as my feelings on Oli being second best: They're down/up there but I don't think 2nd worst/best is entirely correct.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Dre, people talk about low tiers because humans like lists as much as cats like balls of yarn and scratch posts. It doesn't matter how relevant they are, we just can't stop.

Life is much more simple when you start looking at humans as talking monkeys, by the way.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I could def see Zelda above Jiggs, and MAYBE Falcon, although I dont think shes better than Link, so I think at best shes 4th worst.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I don't see what Zelda has going for her, I'm gonna be honest. She is just so limited in every situation; when we're talking about top level play and ignoring sandbagging/match-up inexperience, I don't think we can rely on the opponent making the mistakes that Zelda needs to win :/

At least Ganon has some mix-ups in some scenarios, and has more reliable + generally stronger punishes.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I really don't think Mario is better than Samus. I mean, personally, I think Samus is better than Mario in nearly every way, except maybe kill power. Better defensive game, better survivability thanks to more weight, better recovery, better ledge game, better planking, better projectiles, better OoS game, better moveset, better range on attacks, better gimping ability. Even in kill power, Mario only really has stutter fsmash (dsmash and usmash if you don't spend time racking up damage with them). Samus has dtilt, utilt, and charge shot, the last of which can be comboed into. Samus even has much better money/popularity data.

Tl;dr - My opinion is that I really don't think Samus should be below Mario at all.

samus has a better keepaway game, because she is a keepaway character and mario is not. But I would argue that Marios defensive game, aka his out of shield game is way better because his short hop doesnt suck ****.

Better moveset is HIGHLY arguable. As is the validity of their ledge games, and planking, which is basically all tied to the utility of their up bs, of which marios is superior.

did you just say that samus' non-existant gimp game is better than marios? I mean, marios gimps are nowhere near the 'This is what makes us a viable character!' level that the marios used to talk about 2-3 years ago, but its still one of the few things that keeps him above hyrule tier. what does samus gimp with? crappy projectiles and dair. Mario has a crappy projectile and a ly mediocre spike too. and he also has cape and a water gun.

Mario regularly kills people at 130. Samus cant kill anybody until AT LEAST 160-170. Samus' kill moves are also BAD. Samus is the only character in the game that I can say without a doubt that kills worse than Sonic.

Samus is pure trash. Mario is slightly better.

IIRC, Samus's upB has 5 frames of invincibility and hits on frame 5. 1. The move also can break shields and 2. has pretty decent KB at high %'s. Samus also has a really great sex kick nair for OoS nair. 3. Mario also has a sex kick nair, but Samus's has much more reach.

1. WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING THIS? Theres no way for that to possibly be true. when is Samus ever in a position to break a shield with up b. Like, that would only even be possible on liek 2 legal stages in the game. its one of the most nonsensical things ive ever seen on this thread, and im being completely honest about that.
For real, saying screw attack can break shields is like saying bullet seed can break shields.
stahp.
2. What? Samus' up b has enough knockback to keep her from getting punished for it, and against character that can get to the ground before her (which is a ton of people because she falls ******** slow) it doesnt even do that.
3. see above, it doesnt matter because samus' short hop is as bad as other samus'

A lot of people think that a bad character cannot have good match-ups, and a good character cannot have bad match-ups. Even if they don't realize it, it often subconsciously influences people's perception of match-ups.

For example; Dedede doing far worse against Jigglypuff than Donkey Kong does.

I remember, there was SO MUCH OF THIS that we had to deal with to explain why sonic wasnt the 5th worst character in the game.

@Post 10-15 posts back: Marios up b oos is better than Samus'. Just fyi. Like, if I remember correctly, Mario is THE only character who can punish a ZSS dsmash on shield due to that up b.

And Samus > Mario, plus she actually has results (quik).

how much does his samus do. it seems like he just plays her in random matches just to be like "HEY LOOK My samus helped me win!"

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah I was wondering for the longest on how the **** Samus would ever break anyones shield with up b. that **** would be OD...

Mario's upb in terms of the move (not recovery) is better, no question. Samus' upb is SDI city looool although I'm sure Mario's is too...maybe.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mario's is still safe when SDI'd, Samus can't say the same.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Marios up b can be SDId as well, but its faster, he has faster fall, and its hella disjointed so its still safe.

And I dont follow Quik much, but I do know that Ive seen vids of him taking out some real good players and have seen him place well using Samus (not only Samus obviously though), which is better than most, if any other low tiers can say.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I got a game from ESAM.... And then I lost. I was sad.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The way Quik uses Samus reminds me of the way many top players use Wario.

Like, "Oh... I lost with my main. Wildcard Wario pick!" Then if they win the match (or even if they don't), Wario gets put next to their name and inflates Wario's results somewhat needlessly and inaccurately, especially if they place well. Incidentally I don't think Wario is that great.

However Quik's Samus is ludicrously good, very fun to watch.

 

[Pikabunz]

I got a game from ESAM.... And then I lost. I was sad.

Did you beat his or ?

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Pikachu. Then I lost game 2 to ICs on FD and game 3 to pika on RC. The RC game could've been really close but I tripped on a chance to kill. Next time I'll say.

 

[bubbaking]

For example; Dedede doing far worse against Jigglypuff than Donkey Kong does.

I don't really disagree with this. Most people shouldn't, especially if they like to make the bair argument. The official MU chart says that DDD +2's Jiggs and DK +3's her. My disagreement occurs when you argue that DDD:Jiggs is even.

I know nothing about this game so I only post mocking comments to look cool.

My life is fantastic, yo.

Dark.Pch would hate you...

samus has a better keepaway game, because she is a keepaway character and mario is not. But I would argue that Marios defensive game, aka his out of shield game is way better because his short hop doesnt suck ****.

I never said "keepaway"; I said "defensive" which is very different. Samus's defensive game is better because of her tilts and projectiles on top of a better keepaway game. Also, how bad your SH is doesn't matter too much when you're hitting people with nair OoS (as soon as you leave the ground).

Better moveset is HIGHLY arguable. As is the validity of their ledge games, and planking, which is basically all tied to the utility of their up bs, of which marios is superior.

Samus has more range. Mario has stubby limbs. Samus's ledge game is actually really good. What with tethers, that upB, her floatiness, and other attributes, her ledge game is actually high tier level, if you ask me.

did you just say that samus' non-existant gimp game is better than marios? I mean, marios gimps are nowhere near the 'This is what makes us a viable character!' level that the marios used to talk about 2-3 years ago, but its still one of the few things that keeps him above hyrule tier. what does samus gimp with? crappy projectiles and dair. Mario has a crappy projectile and a ly mediocre spike too. and he also has cape and a water gun.

"Missiles and dair"? See, this is why I was afraid people would totally not understand gimping games here. I would probably never use Samus's dair to edgeguard/gimp someone. It's slow, can be meteor cancelled, and doesn't even have that much KB. Why use dair when you could use nair? Samus can go pretty deep for her gimps thanks to floatiness and her wonderful recovery.

Mario regularly kills people at 130. Samus cant kill anybody until AT LEAST 160-170. Samus' kill moves are also BAD. Samus is the only character in the game that I can say without a doubt that kills worse than Sonic.

I would argue that Samus can also rack up damage better than Mario over the course of a stock, since she lives longer and has a better defensive game.

Samus is pure trash. Mario is slightly better.

Except that Samus actually has results where Mario doesn't.

1. WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING THIS? Theres no way for that to possibly be true. when is Samus ever in a position to break a shield with up b. Like, that would only even be possible on liek 2 legal stages in the game. its one of the most nonsensical things ive ever seen on this thread, and im being completely honest about that.
For real, saying screw attack can break shields is like saying bullet seed can break shields.
stahp.

Yeah I was wondering for the longest on how the **** Samus would ever break anyones shield with up b. that **** would be OD...

I actually read this in a stickied Samus guide written by Xyro, you know, one of the best Samus players? Wanna see it for yourself? Here you go:

This move when used on opponents in the blast zone is capable of killing them there. Another really cool thing about this move is that it EATS shields. Thats right, gobbles them up. It will easily break many many shields (unless your name is Bowser/D3/Snake/DK).

2. What? Samus' up b has enough knockback to keep her from getting punished for it, and against character that can get to the ground before her (which is a ton of people because she falls ******** slow) it doesnt even do that.

Can't Samus FF after the upB? Also:

This move when used on opponents in the blast zone is capable of killing them there.

This is actually very applicable at certain points of Delfino (like the stone pillars part), RC, and probably some other stages that I'm missing.

3. see above, it doesnt matter because samus' short hop is as bad as other samus'

See my comment above on SH importance.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Screw attack doing lot of shielf damage is a fun fact, not an important character defining trait. Most of its damage come when its at the top of its rising arc. Nobody can shield that unless they are on battlefields top platform.

Like be logical. If you are on the same horizontal plane as samus and she screw attacks you either block the initial hit and then she goes up so high that you dont need to block or you get hit by it and sucked up to the top

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Interesting quote from Xyro's guide... I'm fairly sure Samus' upb would break DK's shield. His shield sucks.

 

[Tesh]

Bad shields are more likely to get poked than broken.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Let's talk about Ness. I think the character is overrated and could possibly be back to low tier by the next update. DDD, Snake, Marth and DK are all about -3. MK, Wario and Falco are about -2 and G&W is supposedly bad as well, though idk to what extent. He also loses to the other spacies and I assume to ICs as well. He also doesn't beat ANYBODY higher than F- or even G-Tier. Olimar might be the only exception to this but I'm sceptical. I do not see why the character couldn't be low tier again.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't see why Marth:Ness isn't a +4. I could say the same thing for DK:Ness, but DK's a worse char who has a little more trouble at neutral, I think. I've beaten a Ness who was way better than me (I think he was ranked on the PR in AZ or something) and I didn't even feel like I was breaking a sweat. I mean, if G&W:Jiggs was changed in 2011 to +4, then why isn't Marth:Ness +4? Marth outranges him, is more mobile, gimps him, gets free damage racking and kill setups off of a grab, and just flat-out destroys the kid.

Edit: DDD's my main, and I have an easier time beating him with Marth than with DDD. Just going by comparisons of different MUs and their values, if DK:Ness is +2 (arguably +3), DDD:Ness is +3, and G&W:Jiggs is +4, then IMO, Marth:Ness should be +4.

Edit 2: Still, going even with Olimar is quite an accomplishment, and I hope that it's already been settled that Ness:Oli is indeed even. There isn't a single character below BL tier that can boast such a valuable even.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

I know nothing about this game so I only post mocking comments to look cool.

My life is fantastic, yo.

This man is clearly worthy of having Jimmy as his name.

 

[C.J.]

Edit 2: Still, going even with Olimar is quite an accomplishment, and I hope that it's already been settled that Ness:Oli is indeed even. There isn't a single character below BL tier that can boast such a valuable even.

ROB vs IC
Arguably Snake vs Ike

I've also seen Ike/IC be argued to be even.

 

[Player-1]

lol you guys are dumb, fox is easily the worst character

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You lost to Nakat. Your argument is invalid.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't see why Marth:Ness isn't a +4. I could say the same thing for DK:Ness, but DK's a worse char who has a little more trouble at neutral, I think. I've beaten a Ness who was way better than me (I think he was ranked on the PR in AZ or something) and I didn't even feel like I was breaking a sweat. I mean, if G&W:Jiggs was changed in 2011 to +4, then why isn't Marth:Ness +4? Marth outranges him, is more mobile, gimps him, gets free damage racking and kill setups off of a grab, and just flat-out destroys the kid.

Edit: DDD's my main, and I have an easier time beating him with Marth than with DDD. Just going by comparisons of different MUs and their values, if DDD:Ness is +3, DK:Ness is +3, and G&W:Jiggs is +4, then IMO, Marth:Ness should be +4.

Edit 2: Still, going even with Olimar is quite an accomplishment, and I hope that it's already been settled that Ness:Oli is indeed even. There isn't a single character below BL tier that can boast such a valuable even.

Have you played a notable Ness?
That kid can be really really hard to grab.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, I have Kyokoro, but I forgot his tag and I've been searching around for a reminder to what his tag was for ages. I played him in the GFs of two tourneys (I beat him both times, using both DDD and Marth) and he was listed in the PR at some point for his region (I think it was AZ). Yes, Ness can be somewhat difficult to grab but Marth also out-ranges him badly at neutral. The game sucks all-around for the kid. The grab just clinches the +4. I mean, DDD has an even harder time grabbing Ness, IMO, and his MU against him is a +3. That's actually my main reasoning towards why Marth:Ness should be +4. It's way easier than DDD:Ness.

ROB vs IC
Arguably Snake vs Ike

I've also seen Ike/IC be argued to be even.

I was actually going to mention ROB:ICs myself (and also Yoshi:ICs), but I decided not to since I actually think ROB might be good enough to be in BL Tier. I've heard about Ike:ICs too, but I don't know how founded that argument is. As for Snake, well tbh, I don't see an even vs Snake to be as valuable as an even vs Olimar. Snake has quite a few even and disadvantageous MUs for a Top Tier character and he doesn't beat anyone above Lower Mid Tier hard except for Peach. On the other hand, ICs beat a whole crapload of chars in Top, High, and BL Tier pretty badly and go even with no one below BL except for ROB and Yoshi. Olimar has no disadvantageous MUs outside of Top Tier and he has literally no even MUs below BL (except for Ness). Therefore, I think having an even against those two specific chars (or MK, of course ) is actually more valuable than having an even against any other char.

I know I'm taking a long time to get there (I'm horrible at explaining things, including my own stances in arguments), but basically, anyone can just switch to a 'Snake check/counter' (DDD, Wario, Marth, etc.). It's a LOT harder to find a char (that you can use well) for Olimar and/or ICs. If a char like Ness has an even MU against Olimar, then he's really valuable in my eyes, and that even makes him worth picking him up and learning how to use him well.

Tl;dr - ICs and Oli have the two best MU spreads after MK. An even MU against either of them is great and is a good reason towards not being a Low Tier char.

Edit: This actually goes perfectly in line with a sensible post made by Dre earlier:

But the tier list serves to show the viability of the characters.

I think people have been eveloped in those discussions so long that they've lost sight of what practical purpose the list serves.

Edit 2: Before anyone jumps on me for this post, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not saying this reason alone is why Ness shouldn't be Low Tier. I'm saying it's a reason towards not being Low Tier. As one can see in my previous response to Gheb, I'm actually not averse to Ness being put into Low Tier if Low Tier's boundaries are being re-considered and/or enlargened. I even said that one of Ness's MUs is probably even worse than it's depicted as being.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

1. Ness is as hard to grab as Wario or any other "hard to grab" character
2. When you can't grab him or your character doesn't have any grab-release shenanigans he's a good character

I think his spot is about right.

 

[bubbaking]

He's an alright character. Seriously, going from all the complaints I've seen on the Ness boards about his MUs vs Marth and DDD, you'd think that Ness is absolutely helpless at neutral. I know this isn't true, but he's out-ranged and at a super-disadvantage all the time. In all his other MUs (except probably DK), though, I could agree that Ness is a bit better than "alright". He doesn't really dip below -2 except against those specific two... My main argument, concerning Ness, is that Marth:Ness should be +4, going by the precedent standards set for +4 by DDD:DK and G&W:Jiggs. It's already quite clear that +4 doesn't actually mean "unwinnable".

 

[ぱみゅ]

But DDD:DK is +4 because DK will eventually be grabbed, or challenged in a Bair vs Bair game.
THe other option for him is to grab the ledge, but, you know, LGL....

 

[infiniteV115]

Let's talk about Ness. I think the character is overrated and could possibly be back to low tier by the next update. DDD, Snake, Marth and DK are all about -3. MK, Wario and Falco are about -2 and G&W is supposedly bad as well, though idk to what extent. He also loses to the other spacies and I assume to ICs as well. He also doesn't beat ANYBODY higher than F- or even G-Tier. Olimar might be the only exception to this but I'm sceptical. I do not see why the character couldn't be low tier again.

I think Ness is underrated.
I don't see why the Falco MU should be considered -2 for Ness when FOW's Ness has a winning record over Larry (AFAIK)
FOW's Ness also has a good record against Tyrant's MK AFAIK
Shaky beat Infern at WHOBO 4 (this bracket file is really hard to read) and I believe Shaky beat MVD the last time they played (if not the last time, then fairly recently). Unfortunately I don't know what their overall record is like.

I don't think I've ever seen FOW/Shaky play Ness vs Marth, or FOW's Ness vs Snake/DDD/DK. But so far we can't really refer to results to make an argument for Ness being low tier/losing -2 to MK&Falco/losing -3 to Snake.

Unless you find more results somewhere

 

[bubbaking]

But DDD:DK is +4 because DK will eventually be grabbed, or challenged in a Bair vs Bair game.
THe other option for him is to grab the ledge, but, you know, LGL....

But if DK gets in, he can kill DDD or cause him serious problems because his mobility is much greater than DDD's. DK doesn't even necessarily lose the bair vs bair game because of added mobility. Ness, however, doesn't really 'get in' on Marth. He just kinda dances around and prays he doesn't get caught. That was my take on the MU anyway. I mean, even disregarding that Ness I played during two GF's, I play against a mid-level Ness regularly.

Edit: It's also not that hard to force situations where Ness ends up grabbed. Marth has quick aerials that can 'frame-trap' into situations that lead to a grab. He also has the fear factor of just standing at a certain distance. His walling is manipulative, even if he's not actually attacking, and it gets him grabs. Marth can also gimp Ness. I just think the MU is all-around horrible. Also, even if you wanna disregard DDD:DK, what about G&W:Jiggs? Mink says he personally had that MU changed from +3 to +4. If that MU is so bad for general approaching and risk:reward reasons, then why not Marth:Ness? Now if you argue that G&W:Jiggs (and/or DDD:DK) is not a +4 and is in fact a +3, then I could see Marth:Ness also not being a +4. I even believed that G&W:Jiggs is only a +3, but since Mink is one of the best Jiggs, I'll take his opinion over mine. However, you have to apply the same precedent to other MUs.

Edit 2: I can understand +4's for blatantly 'unwinnable' MUs, like ICs:Ganon or DDD:Bowser, because in those MUs, it is extremely and painfully clear that the losing char simply cannot approach because of one stupid, over-centralizing tactic, trait, or attack. However, in case no one has noticed yet, I am questioning the validity of other +4 MUs we have pervading our system. Will has already shown countless times that DDD:DK between two competent players is very much not 'unwinnable'. I also don't believe that Jiggs:G&W is, and neither is Marth:Ness. However, if we're so set on labelling 'extremely difficult but slightly winnable' MUs as +4, then by all means, make DK:DDD and Jiggs:G&W +4, but Marth:Ness should be there too. It's more than just the GR. It's everything about that MU.

Edit 3: DK even gets to plank better than Ness, IMO, so he has a much easier time avoiding crap onstage by abusing his LGL. OK, I think I'm done with the edits now.....

 

[DMG]

I see FOW going MK vs people

Ness sucks SHAKY THE ONLY TRUE BELIEVER

 

[pidgezero_one]

Ness in low tier? Good lord. Hope you guys enjoy ****ing up LT tourney results.

Ness is fine where he is.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Ness is underrated.
I don't see why the Falco MU should be considered -2 for Ness when FOW's Ness has a winning record over Larry (AFAIK)
FOW's Ness also has a good record against Tyrant's MK AFAIK
Shaky beat Infern at WHOBO 4 (this bracket file is really hard to read) and I believe Shaky beat MVD the last time they played (if not the last time, then fairly recently). Unfortunately I don't know what their overall record is like.

I don't think I've ever seen FOW/Shaky play Ness vs Marth, or FOW's Ness vs Snake/DDD/DK. But so far we can't really refer to results to make an argument for Ness being low tier/losing -2 to MK&Falco/losing -3 to Snake.

Unless you find more results somewhere

@Fow vs Larry; It's not a winning record - he only took 1 set with Ness.
@Fow vs Tyrant; Fow lost the last two sets and doesn't even go Ness vs him anymore. Guess why.
@Shaky vs Snakes; I don't think either of those players is good enough to match Shaky as a player. I'll prolly get flamed for it again but I don't think they're good Snake players. Havok does beat Fow's Ness though.
@Fow vs Marth; This has happened [Haze beating Fow] but Fow only uses MK in the match-up now. Guess why.

But I like the way you're trying to debunk my points with my own methods. No joking, there's no better way to "beat" somebody than by using his own tools. I shall see what I can find in terms of results but it's save to say that all the match-ups I mentioned are pretty bad for Ness.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ness isn't that great, but putting him in low tier is a stretch for a lot of reasons. He just doesn't belong there; despite his fatal flaws he does about as well as other characters in the lower part of mid tier (if not better).

I mean, look, there isn't much of a functional difference between losing -3 to MK like a ton of mid tier does and losing -3 to Marth and MK or whatever, either way you aren't going to win much, and Ness' tools are high tier material.

I think Ness would be a very competitive choice if not for his grab release issue.

A lot of people claim he has other problems like... limited ledge options, which might be true, but even high tier characters have limited options in one place or another. That doesn't make his zoning, early kills, etc any less powerful. Plus he does pretty well vs. most of the cast despite his grab release problem with a few ugly exceptions in high and top tier.

 

[Lukingordex]

Stop arguing about Ness being on LT and argue about Yoshi being on LT,so I will be allowed to use him on LT tourneys again.

 

[Delta-cod]

LT tournies don't even exist. Who cares about moving him back down for that reason?

 

[pidgezero_one]

They exist in Canada.