Official BBR Tier List v7

[Delta-cod]

Canada isn't a real place, though.

 

[C.J.]

Can-a-da?

Never heard of it.

 

[bubbaking]

I see FOW going MK vs people

This...

@Fow vs Marth; This has happened [Haze beating Fow] but Fow only uses MK in the match-up now. Guess why.

And this.

Ness isn't that great, but putting him in low tier is a stretch for a lot of reasons. He just doesn't belong there; despite his fatal flaws he does about as well as other characters in the lower part of mid tier (if not better).

I already started the deed, I might as well go the rest of the 9 yards. Since the MU chart is being re-formatted before the new list, if Ness:Marth was indeed -4, wouldn't that, on top of the rest of his MU spread, technically be enough to put him into LT? Then again, as I've said, a 0 against Oli is pretty darn valuable.....

I mean, look, there isn't much of a functional difference between losing -3 to MK like a ton of mid tier does and losing -3 to Marth and MK or whatever, either way you aren't going to win much, and Ness' tools are high tier material.

Ness doesn't lose -3 to MK. That MU actually isn't even that bad for Ness. I think I've seen people arguing that MU to be a -1 only. If that MU somehow ends up as -3 in the next chart, then there'll be no reason for Ness:Marth to not be -4.

A lot of people claim he has other problems like... limited ledge options, which might be true, but even high tier characters have limited options in one place or another. That doesn't make his zoning, early kills, etc any less powerful. Plus he does pretty well vs. most of the cast despite his grab release problem with a few ugly exceptions in high and top tier.

Don't forget Mid Tier DK! It's ok to get bodied by TT and HT's, but is it really so okay to be bodied by a fellow MT like that?

All this being said, I really could see Ness remaining Lower MT or going down into LT. It's the MUs that I think really need to be questioned and re-evaluated. Imho, these changes should be applied, going on experience and seeing the MUs done at high level:

• Ness:Marth goes from -3 to -4
• Ness:DK goes from -2 to -3.
• Ness:MK goes from -2 to -1.

It's about time we stopped saying that MK bodies all lower MT's and LT's for free.

 

[RaptorTEC]

But Canada has given birth to some of today's most talented musicians. Nickelback, Justin Beiber, Avril Lavigne the list goes on. You can't just pretend Canada doesn't exist.

 

[bubbaking]

You lost me at Justin Bieber.....

#KillItWithFire!

 

[Cassio]

After FOW took over the west coast he stopped entering and/or take singles seriously. Although I think hes pretty pragmatic about Ness' limitations. Lately his focus has been on doubles, and is actually incredibly knowledgeable in the area.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

You lost me at Justin Bieber.....

#KillItWithFire!

Same.

You can't say Canada is good by citing somebody who wore overalls to meet the leader of his country.

 

[pidgezero_one]

I agree Ness:MK is a -1 (albeit a heavier one, definitely think it's more difficult than his other -1s, but that's just me) and Ness:DK is a -3. I don't know how I feel about Ness:Marth being a -4 though

 

[DMG]

We could just call it 6:4

 

[bubbaking]

Think about it. I'm only saying it should be because similarly reasoned MUs, like G&W:Jiggs, are also argued to be -4.

And I agree with DMG.

 

[C.J.]

Ness/Marth definitely isn't -4

It's -3. Hell, in all honesty, if there were a group of Ness mains who thought it was -2 I wouldn't be THAT surprised/would be open to their argument.

Marth just isn't a broken enough character to actually body anyone.

 

[Player-1]

Except squirtle

 

[bubbaking]

Marth just isn't a broken enough character to actually body anyone.

Soooooo what about Mr. Game. AND. Watch?

 

[pidgezero_one]

Think about it. I'm only saying it should be because similarly reasoned MUs, like G&W:Jiggs, are also argued to be -4.

Fair enough, but I suppose those MUs should be re-evaluated if anything. Ness:Marth should remain a heavy -3 imo. But whatever, I'm not a notable Ness

 

[C.J.]

Player-1
Squirtle is a thing. Not a one. He'd be classified as anything. obv


Also, what am I saying. Perfectly space fair, DS OoS, Marth +2 everyone but Diddy/Snake/MK/DDD. +1 the first two, even vs the latter.

I know Nick Riddle agrees

 

[NickRiddle]

Perfectly spaced tipper retreating fairs.
Marth wins the MU +2 except MK, who is the only character who can potentially beat such a tactic.
Marth only +1s him if he mixes in perfectly spaced tipper bairs.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth beats everyone because fair, confirmed

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ness:Marth is -3.

His spacing game isn't air-tight enough to +4 anyone.

EDIT: Nick, what does Marth do when he runs out of stage?

 

[C.J.]

That's why he bairs obv. Shield push to give him back stage.

That or invincible DS through their attacks to get back the stage to retreating fair more.

 

[bubbaking]

Ness:Marth is -3.

His spacing game isn't air-tight enough to +4 anyone.

I will repeat my argument.

Marth just isn't a broken enough character to actually body anyone.

Soooooo what about Mr. Game. AND. Watch?

Edit: And can someone tell me why this MU is -4? I've seen this happen way too consistently. Isn't Atomsk one of the best DDDs in the world or something? It's kind of unbecoming of the one of the best DDDs to lose an "unloseable" MU (the whole set too)...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mr. Game & Watch's spacing game is air-tight enough to +4...

But not Jigglypuff.

 

[NickRiddle]

Ness:Marth is -3.

His spacing game isn't air-tight enough to +4 anyone.

EDIT: Nick, what does Marth do when he runs out of stage?

He doesn't.
DON'T QUESTION ME!

 

[bubbaking]

Mr. Game & Watch's spacing game is air-tight enough to +4...

But not Jigglypuff.

.........To +4 who then? He doesn't have any more +4's in his entire spread. He only has two +3's on Ganon and Zelda. Besides, doesn't Marth have overall better mobility than G&W? It's kinda strange that, with all that mobility and range, his game isn't "air-tight" enough but Game's is.

 

[C.J.]

*insert some joke about 2-dimensional thinking here*


I have no idea, someone think of something.

 

[bubbaking]

Oh, there it is again! Will winning that unwinnable MU. Someone's seriously gotta tell him to stop. He's making our MU system look bad. I mean, Smurf isn't anywhere near as good as Atomsk, but he's still pretty decent IMO. Should be enough to clinch those "unloseables".

Edit: I point out logical flaws in your system and you call my way of thinking "2-dimensional". Classic...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Edit: And can someone tell me why this MU is -4? I've seen this happen way too consistently. Isn't Atomsk one of the best DDDs in the world or something? It's kind of unbecoming of the one of the best DDDs to lose an "unloseable" MU (the whole set too)...

I believe that tournament banned the infinite.

let me break this down for people. marth vs ness and DK vs DDD are +4 unwinnable matchups, if the infinites are legal.

if the infinites are banned, they are -2/-3 matchups.

For an explanation of why those characters lose those matchups despite the great advantage they have, please refer to Grim Tuesday's signature.

 

[C.J.]

..........

Why is the MU unwinnable? The infinite.

What happened when Smurf grabbed him? Not the infinite.

How many times did Will get grabbed? Under a minute in and he's been grabbed 3 times.

Also, the 2-dimensional comment was obviously a joke. I don't care enough to talk about anything seriously on here any more. IM me or message me or w/e if you want a conversation.

@KID- even with the infinite, Ness is too hard for Marth to consistently grab. It's still -3

 

[bubbaking]

I'll take you up on that offer someday. I'd like to understand your take on this.

marth vs ness and DK vs DDD are +4 unwinnable matchups, if the infinites are legal.

So let me get this right..... You're telling me....that you also think that Marth:Ness should be listed as +4 on the MU chart? 'Cause that's what DDD:DK is listed as.

Edit: See, this is what happens when people suggest that Ness should be LT. **** gets real!

 

[da K.I.D.]

that exactly what Im suggesting. however one odd gimmick in one matchup does not by an large dictate a characters viability (unless its against MK). Otherwise, fox would be low tier because he gets ****ed by pikachu and the ICs

 

[Espy Rose]

You forgot about Sheik.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

.........To +4 who then? He doesn't have any more +4's in his entire spread. He only has two +3's on Ganon and Zelda. Besides, doesn't Marth have overall better mobility than G&W? It's kinda strange that, with all that mobility and range, his game isn't "air-tight" enough but Game's is.

I believe he +4s Ganondorf.

And the reason he does but Marth doesn't is because he can throw out lots of hitboxes in a short space of time that cover lots of different areas; Marth can't do that anywhere near as well.

Dedede vs. Donkey Kong is -4
Ghost couldn't do the infinite properly due to nerves (he has told me that he can get it to death with his eyes closed when he practices at home), but yeah, still terrible.

 

[bubbaking]

There was a tournament in Canada that Will went to recently. I can't remember what it was and I'm too lazy to go find it now (maybe I'll search for it later), but I know it was streamed so it shouldn't be too hard to find. The infinite was legal at that tourney and a DDD, who was supposedly known as being technically proficient (according to the commentators), came up against Will in bracket. He attempted the infinite and he lost that set. He was a very competent DDD, too.

Your argument does not stand, Grim. That's just a really bad +3.

But I can agree with KID's logic, too. We just need consistency.

Edit: And no offense to Bones, but how do you mess up the infinite due to "nerves"? That infinite is easier than the one on Luigi and I can do that in my sleep now. Seriously, the infinite's not that hard at all. Landing the grab on competent DKs is the hard part. That MU should not be comparable to DDD:Bowser like it is now.

 

[pidgezero_one]

^ That was 1PokeMastr

 

[bubbaking]

Super lolz! You know which tourney I'm talking about?

 

[pidgezero_one]

of course dude, I housed Will for that tourney, that was showdown in downtown 8

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can mess up anything due to nerves.

That's the point.

 

[Gardex]

Soooooo what about Mr. Game. AND. Watch?

A light -2?
What do you think it is? -3?

 

[da K.I.D.]

You forgot about Sheik.

i thought that matchup wasnt that bad anymore.

i wasnt sure so I left her out.

and lol @ 1pokemastr being used as the basis for anything.

matchup chart is based on top level remember.

when 1poke is as good as coney, then ill care what he does in tournament.

 

[Dre89]

I can't believe that after nearly 5 years of playing this game people are surprised when someone overturns a bad MU at high levels, when it has happened so many times in the past.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I can't believe that after nearly 5 years of playing this game people are surprised when someone overturns a bad MU at high levels, when it has happened so many times in the past.

I can, people are stupid.