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DK beats Ness +1 without the Grab release infinite.
It's likely +3 for DK when DK perfects the infinite.
DK's bair alone trumps many of ness's aerial approaches, on the grouned Ness is also severely out-ranged. DK is also extremely efficient at gimping ness. We can hog the ledge with ub-b which often forces ness to recover onstage where we are usually guaranteed a grab.
With the discovery of this technique recently (2 months ago) I believe DK's will be able to argue for a +3 on the matchup chart. Unlike most characters DK is guaranteed a footstool on ness after they both drop off the stage out of cargo. DK doesnt even have to infinite ness anymore, we can literally kill ness in 15 seconds or less from almost any position on most stages. This combined with the fact that DK's tippered jab (frame 6) leads to a grab makes the matchup very grim for ness.
It's based on high/top level play. Remember, not all of the best users of a char are "top level". This is exactly what's stated in the OP of the MU chart thread:i thought that matchup wasnt that bad anymore.
i wasnt sure so I left her out.
and lol @ 1pokemastr being used as the basis for anything.
matchup chart is based on top level remember.
when 1poke is as good as coney, then ill care what he does in tournament.
Just from reading this now, I've come up with three interesting conclusions.Note that for all scores a competitive level of play is assumed and the performance of top and high level players was generally considered more strongly than what is seen in lower level play. Keep in mind that the chart does not necessarily reflect the opinions and performances of absolute outliers and is ultimately a consensus between people who are assumed to know their character. Furthermore, the Unity ruleset was kept in mind.
Ummm, I was talking about Jiggs:G&W. At best, that MU is definitely a -3. The chart (and one of the best Jiggs) says -4.A light -2?
What do you think it is? -3?
That's not what I said. I said terms like 'mid tier', 'high tier' etc become meaningless when people refer to their own versions of the tier list rather than to a well-established tier list.As V115 said, when having discussion, you have to base at least some of your argument around something tangible, like the MU chart or the tier list. You can't just disregard it, Grim.
First part - I'm fairly certain that roughly 90% of competitive brawl players can perform the infinite. It's a buffered standing regrab for ****'s sake XDThe fact that 1PokeMastr knew the infinite and was stated as being "technically proficient" means that his data should still be considered.
Forgot to address this.@Fow vs Larry; It's not a winning record - he only took 1 set with Ness.
@Fow vs Tyrant; Fow lost the last two sets and doesn't even go Ness vs him anymore. Guess why.
@Shaky vs Snakes; I don't think either of those players is good enough to match Shaky as a player. I'll prolly get flamed for it again but I don't think they're good Snake players. Havok does beat Fow's Ness though.
@Fow vs Marth; This has happened [Haze beating Fow] but Fow only uses MK in the match-up now. Guess why.
But I like the way you're trying to debunk my points with my own methods. No joking, there's no better way to "beat" somebody than by using his own tools. I shall see what I can find in terms of results but it's save to say that all the match-ups I mentioned are pretty bad for Ness.
I am "starting from the ground up." Lolz, you just said it right before I said that. Did you forget?Bubba:
You are what as well? o_O
I never said it could. However, I am also using results in my reasoning. I just pointed out Will taking out 1PokeMastr's DDD, Smurf's DDD, and most notable of all, Atomsk's DDD (with infinites allowed). Do you seriously want more?And your word cannot objectively determine a match-up anymore than mine can. I just believe what I say and give reasons why to try and get other people to feel the same way, or entice them to say things that might change my mind.
So Will vs Atomsk is "selective evidence" for trying to argue that a +4 isn't right? I'm sorry, I guess I'm gonna have to try harder. Someone find me that invincible, invisible DDD! I'm sure he'll set things straight.Selective evidence, Gheb style.
I don't remember you ever telling me that buddy. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?I myself just told you that Poke is not particularly technically proficient, was using a completely new controller for the 2nd time, barely uses DDD, has barely any experience AGAINST DK and isn't a top level player. This is a much better collective argument for why Poke:Will at SiD8 should not be used as a reference point for the MU than 'oh this 1 commentator said Poke is technically proficient'.
Yeah, I don't remember you ever telling me any of that stuff. I didn't even know all of those things about Poke. It's all news to me.I don't even know why you would trust the word of a commentator you don't even know of over someone like me, who
-has known and been good friends with Poke for over a year
-has attended roughly 95-100% of the tournies Poke has attended in the past year
-is a (to some extent) well-established player
-is one of the 3-4 people that regularly attends the weekly smashfests here in Toronto (alongside Poke, so I've been playing with him almost every week for the past year and I'm literally probably the person that has more offline experience against him than every other person on the planet)
Haven't beaten them yet, but I plan too. I've only played against them each like... Once or twice (and before I mained Puff). I didn't say I have better results than Mink.Who have you ever beaten with ?
I wouldn't be surprised if you beat Attila, Shaya, or Tedeth with since she's on par with , , , , and far better then .
I don't remember you ever telling me that buddy. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?
Yeah, I don't remember you ever telling me any of that stuff. I didn't even know all of those things about Poke. It's all news to me.
10charcharI also wouldn't call Poke technically proficient (not that he's particularly technically inept, he's just not anything special when it comes to tech skill).
And he had also recently switched over to the GCC after using the Wiimote for like a year (I believe the tourney where he played Will was his 2nd tourney ever using the GCC)
Which would explain the screwed up infinites, and why POKE paused while WILL was trying to mash out of the infinite.Dat Canadian tech skill
Also Poke never pulls out his DDD except when he decides that his Marth/DK/Falco combination isn't strong enough to take on Red X's Ness, or against Will's DK. He has pretty much no exp in the DDD:DK MU.
And he's also not a top player.
I pretty much already covered that here:Edit: And ftr, I've pointed out matches of three competent players losing to DK with DDD, not just two.
Was the infinite used? (I could probably answer that if I had watched those videos, but I didn't watch them! Also, the mention of the +4 being if the infinite was legal leads me to believe that in those videos, the infinite was not used.... context clues, whoooooo)Results are important, but so are what goes on during the match.
I wasn't being sarcastic . You hurt my feelings.Haven't beaten them yet, but I plan too. I've only played against them each like... Once or twice (and before I mained Puff). I didn't say I have better results than Mink.
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Puff should be a couple of spots higher on the tier list, that is all.