Official BBR Tier List v7

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infiniteV115

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I also wouldn't call Poke technically proficient (not that he's particularly technically inept, he's just not anything special when it comes to tech skill).
And he had also recently switched over to the GCC after using the Wiimote for like a year (I believe the tourney where he played Will was his 2nd tourney ever using the GCC)

Which would explain the screwed up infinites, and why POKE paused while WILL was trying to mash out of the infinite.
Dat Canadian tech skill

Also Poke never pulls out his DDD except when he decides that his Marth/DK/Falco combination isn't strong enough to take on Red X's Ness, or against Will's DK. He has pretty much no exp in the DDD:DK MU.

And he's also not a top player.
 

Neon!

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DK beats Ness +1 without the Grab release infinite.

It's likely +3 for DK when DK perfects the infinite.

DK's bair alone trumps many of ness's aerial approaches, on the grouned Ness is also severely out-ranged. DK is also extremely efficient at gimping ness. We can hog the ledge with ub-b which often forces ness to recover onstage where we are usually guaranteed a grab.

With the discovery of this technique recently (2 months ago) I believe DK's will be able to argue for a +3 on the matchup chart. Unlike most characters DK is guaranteed a footstool on ness after they both drop off the stage out of cargo. DK doesnt even have to infinite ness anymore, we can literally kill ness in 15 seconds or less from almost any position on most stages. This combined with the fact that DK's tippered jab (frame 6) leads to a grab makes the matchup very grim for ness.
 

ViperGold42

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DK beats Ness +1 without the Grab release infinite.

It's likely +3 for DK when DK perfects the infinite.

DK's bair alone trumps many of ness's aerial approaches, on the grouned Ness is also severely out-ranged. DK is also extremely efficient at gimping ness. We can hog the ledge with ub-b which often forces ness to recover onstage where we are usually guaranteed a grab.

With the discovery of this technique recently (2 months ago) I believe DK's will be able to argue for a +3 on the matchup chart. Unlike most characters DK is guaranteed a footstool on ness after they both drop off the stage out of cargo. DK doesnt even have to infinite ness anymore, we can literally kill ness in 15 seconds or less from almost any position on most stages. This combined with the fact that DK's tippered jab (frame 6) leads to a grab makes the matchup very grim for ness.

I think I found my counter for Ness now, because I always wanted to play DK since the original but he wasn't always good against most matchups.
 

bubbaking

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i thought that matchup wasnt that bad anymore.

i wasnt sure so I left her out.

and lol @ 1pokemastr being used as the basis for anything.

matchup chart is based on top level remember.

when 1poke is as good as coney, then ill care what he does in tournament.
It's based on high/top level play. Remember, not all of the best users of a char are "top level". This is exactly what's stated in the OP of the MU chart thread:
Note that for all scores a competitive level of play is assumed and the performance of top and high level players was generally considered more strongly than what is seen in lower level play. Keep in mind that the chart does not necessarily reflect the opinions and performances of absolute outliers and is ultimately a consensus between people who are assumed to know their character. Furthermore, the Unity ruleset was kept in mind.
Just from reading this now, I've come up with three interesting conclusions.
  1. I'm allowed to talk about DDD's MUs because I know my character.
  2. High Level play is considered, not just top.
  3. Mid-level play is considered too, just not as strongly as high level play.
The fact that 1PokeMastr knew the infinite and was stated as being "technically proficient" means that his data should still be considered.

Besides, +4 means that the MU is practically impossible and you can easily be beaten by any competent user of the char who knows what he's doing and exactly why the MU is a +4. I'm sure Pokemastr knew the DDD:DK MU was a +4 and he knew it was because of the infinite. Will still trumped him.

But anyway, if you're so interested in top results only, I just checked. Infinites were not banned at KTAR 3. You know what that means. Will beat Atomsk, one of the best DDDs, with infinites allowed. So, is the MU still +4?

Edit: But I do agree that, if DDD:DK is +4 (and some other MUs are what they are), then Marth:Ness should be +4 as well. I just disagree with that first part of the equation. :p

A light -2?
What do you think it is? -3?
Ummm, I was talking about Jiggs:G&W. At best, that MU is definitely a -3. The chart (and one of the best Jiggs) says -4.
 

bubbaking

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As V115 said, when having discussion, you have to base at least some of your argument around something tangible, like the MU chart or the tier list. You can't just disregard it, Grim. If you do, you're purposefully separating your discussion from the precedent that everyone else's discussion is working around.

Edit: And who are these "other two best Puffs". I hope you aren't referring to yourself, 'cause, no offense intended, I really haven't seen or heard of your results anywhere...
 

Neon!

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I still have a hard time seeing DDD beating DK +4.

DK is significantly more mobile and his ground pound makes it nearly impossible to grab him. Anytime DK feels cornered he can run-down-b or if he's close to the ledge he can run off and swat ddd away with bair then retire to the ledge.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Bubba:

You are what as well? o_O

And your word cannot objectively determine a match-up anymore than mine can. I just believe what I say and give reasons why to try and get other people to feel the same way, or entice them to say things that might change my mind.

:phone:
 

infiniteV115

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As V115 said, when having discussion, you have to base at least some of your argument around something tangible, like the MU chart or the tier list. You can't just disregard it, Grim.
That's not what I said. I said terms like 'mid tier', 'high tier' etc become meaningless when people refer to their own versions of the tier list rather than to a well-established tier list.

The fact that 1PokeMastr knew the infinite and was stated as being "technically proficient" means that his data should still be considered.
First part - I'm fairly certain that roughly 90% of competitive brawl players can perform the infinite. It's a buffered standing regrab for ****'s sake XD
2nd part - That's terrible logic. Just because the commentator (I bet you don't even know who the commentator was. I don't, I was sitting beside Will and watching the set) says Poke is technically proficient, doesn't mean it's true.
I myself just told you that Poke is not particularly technically proficient, was using a completely new controller for the 2nd time, barely uses DDD, has barely any experience AGAINST DK and isn't a top level player. This is a much better collective argument for why Poke:Will at SiD8 should not be used as a reference point for the MU than 'oh this 1 commentator said Poke is technically proficient'.

I don't even know why you would trust the word of a commentator you don't even know of over someone like me, who
-has known and been good friends with Poke for over a year
-has attended roughly 95-100% of the tournies Poke has attended in the past year
-is a (to some extent) well-established player
-is one of the 3-4 people that regularly attends the weekly smashfests here in Toronto (alongside Poke, so I've been playing with him almost every week for the past year and I'm literally probably the person that has more offline experience against him than every other person on the planet)
 

Seagull Joe

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Poke's :dedede: is legit. His :jigglypuff: (Top 10 character in the game with matchups no worst then -1 other then :gw:, which is -2) is probably almost as good as Grim's.

:018:
 

infiniteV115

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@Fow vs Larry; It's not a winning record - he only took 1 set with Ness.
@Fow vs Tyrant; Fow lost the last two sets and doesn't even go Ness vs him anymore. Guess why.
@Shaky vs Snakes; I don't think either of those players is good enough to match Shaky as a player. I'll prolly get flamed for it again but I don't think they're good Snake players. Havok does beat Fow's Ness though.
@Fow vs Marth; This has happened [Haze beating Fow] but Fow only uses MK in the match-up now. Guess why.

But I like the way you're trying to debunk my points with my own methods. No joking, there's no better way to "beat" somebody than by using his own tools. I shall see what I can find in terms of results but it's save to say that all the match-ups I mentioned are pretty bad for Ness.

:059:
Forgot to address this.
Glad you noticed what I was trying to do there lol.
Anyway, my point was that there are aren't enough usable results atm to argue these MU changes. I could see Marth being -3, and MK perhaps being -2 if his gimp game is on point (I've never seen this though), but I honestly don't see Snake winning +3 (+2 imo) and Falco winning +2 (+1/0 imo)

Also, ftr, FOW also beat Larry in a MM. So using recent bracket sets + MMs, he's 2-0 against his Flaoc afaik
 

bubbaking

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Bubba:

You are what as well? o_O
I am "starting from the ground up." Lolz, you just said it right before I said that. Did you forget? :p

And your word cannot objectively determine a match-up anymore than mine can. I just believe what I say and give reasons why to try and get other people to feel the same way, or entice them to say things that might change my mind.
I never said it could. However, I am also using results in my reasoning. I just pointed out Will taking out 1PokeMastr's DDD, Smurf's DDD, and most notable of all, Atomsk's DDD (with infinites allowed). Do you seriously want more?

Selective evidence, Gheb style.
So Will vs Atomsk is "selective evidence" for trying to argue that a +4 isn't right? I'm sorry, I guess I'm gonna have to try harder. :rolleyes: Someone find me that invincible, invisible DDD! I'm sure he'll set things straight.
 

bubbaking

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So, uh, what was that about "selective evidence", Grim? It sure sounds like what you're starting to do right now. I just pulled up whatever vids I could find/remember on the DK:DDD MU.

I myself just told you that Poke is not particularly technically proficient, was using a completely new controller for the 2nd time, barely uses DDD, has barely any experience AGAINST DK and isn't a top level player. This is a much better collective argument for why Poke:Will at SiD8 should not be used as a reference point for the MU than 'oh this 1 commentator said Poke is technically proficient'.
I don't remember you ever telling me that buddy. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? :confused:

I don't even know why you would trust the word of a commentator you don't even know of over someone like me, who
-has known and been good friends with Poke for over a year
-has attended roughly 95-100% of the tournies Poke has attended in the past year
-is a (to some extent) well-established player
-is one of the 3-4 people that regularly attends the weekly smashfests here in Toronto (alongside Poke, so I've been playing with him almost every week for the past year and I'm literally probably the person that has more offline experience against him than every other person on the planet)
Yeah, I don't remember you ever telling me any of that stuff. I didn't even know all of those things about Poke. It's all news to me. :ohwell:
 

C.J.

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Doesn't Atomsk usually gentleman's rule the infinite and not use it?

Or I could be making this up because I don't know what has actually happened recently since I've been up for almost 84 hours

/dying
 

Jimmy?

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I thought someone said Atomsk either didn't use it or it wasn't legal, which was why the set of 1Poke (or whatever his name is, I don't know, since, like, who am I) vs Will was brought up.... because the infinite was legal there.

Either way, it doesn't make sense to use the results of two totally disparate players to determine a match up. If I played M2K's Ganondorf with my MK, I'd get JV 4 stocked since, like, who am I. That doesn't determine the match up. Bringing that up is dumb and stupid and also dumb.

Also, -4, I guess, is referred to as an unwinnable matchup, but it's not as though there are rules in place that say "You're not allowed to win this."

Someone can **** up really hardcore. Someone could be at a different level than another player. Someone could not utilize the tools that make the match a -4. Argue results, but argue intelligently, don't just say "Something happened."

If I beat every high level player in existence just because I cut off their hands and they were unable to play because they had no hands, it wouldn't make me a top level player. I'd just be a psychopath.

The argument here is basically that things happened and it's ignoring the time in which it is actually happening. Results are important, but so are what goes on during the match. If someone's throwing the match, then guess what? The results of that match don't matter!

SO FRIGGIN' INSIGHTFUL, THIS KID.

Not saying anyone threw a match against DK as DDD, but, like, pay attention, don't just say "Nope, something happened that may or may not prove my point, so I'll just say it actually does prove my point."
 

bubbaking

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The infinite was legal. We really can't afford to be selective with the few matches we possess that have been played out at top level. Also, just pointing out that Neon also doesn't think that DDD:DK is +4. So don't everybody just look at me now. :p

Edit: And ftr, I've pointed out matches of three competent players losing to DK with DDD, not just two.
 

Grim Tuesday

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Who have you ever beaten with :jigglypuff:?

I wouldn't be surprised if you beat Attila, Shaya, or Tedeth with :jigglypuff: since she's on par with :snake:, :marth:, :metaknight:, :wario:, and far better then :wolf:.

:018:
Haven't beaten them yet, but I plan too. I've only played against them each like... Once or twice (and before I mained Puff). I didn't say I have better results than Mink.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Puff should be a couple of spots higher on the tier list, that is all.

:phone:
 

infiniteV115

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I don't remember you ever telling me that buddy. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? :confused:



Yeah, I don't remember you ever telling me any of that stuff. I didn't even know all of those things about Poke. It's all news to me. :ohwell:
I also wouldn't call Poke technically proficient (not that he's particularly technically inept, he's just not anything special when it comes to tech skill).
And he had also recently switched over to the GCC after using the Wiimote for like a year (I believe the tourney where he played Will was his 2nd tourney ever using the GCC)

Which would explain the screwed up infinites, and why POKE paused while WILL was trying to mash out of the infinite.
Dat Canadian tech skill

Also Poke never pulls out his DDD except when he decides that his Marth/DK/Falco combination isn't strong enough to take on Red X's Ness, or against Will's DK. He has pretty much no exp in the DDD:DK MU.

And he's also not a top player.
10charchar
 

Jimmy?

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Edit: And ftr, I've pointed out matches of three competent players losing to DK with DDD, not just two.
I pretty much already covered that here:
Results are important, but so are what goes on during the match.
Was the infinite used? (I could probably answer that if I had watched those videos, but I didn't watch them! Also, the mention of the +4 being if the infinite was legal leads me to believe that in those videos, the infinite was not used.... context clues, whoooooo)

idgaf if it's legal, really, I'm not even making an argument for why it is or isn't +4. I'm not saying anything about the match up itself, just about the poor argumentation going on.
 

Seagull Joe

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Haven't beaten them yet, but I plan too. I've only played against them each like... Once or twice (and before I mained Puff). I didn't say I have better results than Mink.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Puff should be a couple of spots higher on the tier list, that is all.

:phone:
I wasn't being sarcastic :c. You hurt my feelings.

You have been thread banned for 1 hour.

:018:
 

Grim Tuesday

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You are so weird, Joe lol

Meh next major I'll have at least made somewhat of a name for myself (even if it's only in Melee) so I won't have to put up with "lol everything you say is theorycraft you have no idea how top level play works"

:phone:
 

Jimmy?

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Making a name for yourself generally includes doing something impressive....

No one's gonna be like 'Oh, ****, that's the guy that lost really badly to anyone relevant, let's listen to his ideas.'
 
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