Official BBR Tier List v7

[Grim Tuesday]

Bubba that's why I'm going to beat good players, not just lose to them

And your theorycrafting is pretty flawed but meh

 

[ShadowLink84]

I


I never said it could. However, I am also using results in my reasoning. I just pointed out Will taking out 1PokeMastr's DDD, Smurf's DDD, and most notable of all, Atomsk's DDD (with infinites allowed). Do you seriously want more?

The question is...did he use the infinite whenever he got a grab?

 

[bubbaking]

Another match of Will beating some DDD by the tag of Tmacc (not sure who he is...) I just want to point out some things during this match that Neon already mentioned. Notice how long Will goes without getting grabbed. DK is a surprisingly slippery character and he's hard for slow DDD to actually catch. Will went for more than a minute without getting grabbed (or killed), taking a stock off the DDD and taking his next stock up to 63% while at it. Just pointing some things out...

 

[Jimmy?]

Another match of Will beating some DDD by the tag of Tmacc (not sure who he is...) I just want to point out some things during this match that Neon already mentioned. Notice how long Will goes without getting grabbed. DK is a surprisingly slippery character and he's hard for slow DDD to actually catch. Will went for more than a minute without getting grabbed (or killed), taking a stock off the DDD and taking his next stock up to 63% while at it. Just pointing some things out...

Allow me to point something out as well:

some DDD by the tag of Tmacc (not sure who he is...)

Not tryna drink a bunch of haterade here (luv u tmacc<33 but, no, really, who is that), but do you really think he and Will are players on the same level?

 

[bubbaking]

Grim, your theorycrafting is the epitome of 'flawed'. You're trying to argue the Sonic:Bowser MU in Bowser's favor by using TAS tactics. Not very smart if you ask me. And how am I theorycrafting when I'm just pointing out things in actual matches now? I haven't pulled a single 'theory' out of my head hey.

Jimmy, me asking who Tmacc is literally says nothing. I don't know who a lot of good players are. Heck, I didn't even know Neon was a top DK until recently. I usually only know people after I've seen them on here or in tournament. I don't really go out looking for players. I'm literally just pulling up vids.

 

[Jimmy?]

So without doing any research into the evidence you're providing, you're saying it's good evidence?

Like I said, I'm not arguing the match up. I'm just trying to get some reasonable argumentation going. likesrsly, if you want to prove a point, try.

 

[infiniteV115]

There's only 1 top level DK in my book.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Actually I just said that Bowser can out-space Sonic on reaction. No TAS needed, and Limit verified my claims.

I didn't say that Dedede can wall Puff off-stage with bair, or that G&W's bair reliably combos into KO moves. That is your theorycrafting that I was referring to.

 

[Dre89]

Haven't beaten them yet, but I plan too. I've only played against them each like... Once or twice (and before I mained Puff). I didn't say I have better results than Mink.

Sorry to do this to you again but I think you're pretty far off beating them. You lost to my Tink (who isn't even my main) on wifi and I'm a low-level player.

Granted it was wifi, but that connection wasn't that bad, and the point is that players like Tedeth, Shaya and Attila would body me consistently using random, with much worse connections. In fact Scoot/Swordsaint used to consistently body me all the time on wifi with random.

You can say 'lolwifi' or that you were sandbagging, but you stopped playing because you were getting annoyed that you couldn't execute what you were intending to, which isn't really the attitude of someone who is casually sandbagging.

Even so, top Aussies would still own me if they're sandbagging anyway. Tedeth's Captian Falcon (who he never plays) 2-1'd my main when he was sandbagging.

That's how bad I am at this game. So no offence, but anyone who loses multiple games to me isn't near high level and probably isn't an authority on this game.

Again, I'm sorry to do this to you, but I think the other lurkers are entitled to this perspective. More importantly, I think you need some perspective on your limitations as player.

But again, sorry.

 

[bubbaking]

I didn't say that Dedede can wall Puff off-stage with bair, or that G&W's bair reliably combos into KO moves. That is your theorycrafting that I was referring to.

Yeah, not even correctly remembering what I said. I said that nair combos into dsmash with proper positioning. That's not theorycraft. I've done it myself, and it's been confirmed by others. Lzr said that the same thing should work for bair. Come on, man, I even quoted the entire discussion before so you could see. Also, I never remember using the word "reliable" anywhere during that MU discussion.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Lolwifi
Lolfriendlies

I wasn't frustrated, I just didn't find it fun.
I've been told that when I play wifi, it's a lot worse lag-wise on my end.

Bubba: You said bair and Nair, I can find the quote if you want. And you implied reliability.

 

[bubbaking]

Ok, please do. I'll find the entire discussion that I quoted just for your benefit.

Edit:Here we go! This is the entire G&W:Jiggs discussion we had, with all the posts lined up in order. Please point out where I "theorycrafted" that bair combos into dsmash, because I honestly can't find myself saying that anywhere. Here, I'll even bold some parts for you.
[collapse=G&W destroys Jiggs.]

About the G&W:Jiggs MU, I honestly thought that MU was +3 simply because G&W's bair shut down Jiggs even harder than DDD's. Really simple thinking, I know, but I honestly couldn't think of an answer from Jiggs for Game's bair.

It's dtilt and nair that really **** up jiggs. That and a read with a smash attack kills at like 55-60%

Bair isn't a problem for anyone who has learnt to SDI.
Nair isn't that big a worry for anyone who has learnt to bait and punish.

Smash attacks, dtilt, and his other aerials are bigger problems.

Please go ahead and SDI bair all the time. This is a good setup for a dsmash so go ahead.
Nair is crazy, it covers all around GW where Puff can't do much about it and we can immediately land and throw a Dtilt. That alone gives Puff a lot of trouble. Not to mention nair does a lot of damage by itself. We need like 3 dairs and a dtilt to be able to kill. And yes we have those kill setups from a grab as well. It's not like it's impossible for Puff to do anything, but the risk vs reward here is comparable to Snakes tilts. And please don't fall for that Praxis bull**** about bair being ****, it's just not true. Bair is great.

Ah yes the "sdi beats gaw" argument. Not much I can say to this other than you're mostly wrong unless you wanna be a ***** about it.

Bait and punish nair? You're going to need to say more about this.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I've combo'd weak nair (last weak hits) into dsmash with G&W before.

This works in the same way as the bair one I mentioned. If they SDI out so that they won't be hit by the landing hitbox, it's an easy followup.

[/collapse]

That's how bad I am at this game. So no offence, but anyone who loses multiple games to me isn't near high level and probably isn't an authority on this game.

Isn't this basically what I said to Minty about Melee when he blew up?

 

[bubbaking]

Double post, sorry.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually I just said that Bowser can out-space Sonic on reaction. No TAS needed, and Limit verified my claims.

Bowser can stand there and swing all day and Sonic would literally have no reason to approach.
Let alone that again, Sonic has cancel abilities, even if you react to one approach, he is not dedicated to that approach.

Alot of people tend to think reaction==prediction.
Sonic has a million crappy options, and unfortunately, Bowser lacks an option select to cut them all off.

So reaction literally does not get to play a part here simply because of Bowser's lack of options.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You said more after that (you made posts saying things like "we literally just talked about this match-up").

I'll find it when I get home.

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, I did. I simply said, "We finished discussing the MU and we pretty much agreed that it was a +4 for G&W," because you were trying to say that I was just theorycrafting everything (like you're doing now) when we had Lzr, Alphicans, and you on board for that discussion. I then proceeded to quote everything that was discussed. I may have brought up things that were mentioned in the conversation, but no one ever disputed those things and I never said that it was I who brought up these things. You can't try to pin things on me when someone else brings it up and it's pretty much accepted by everyone there.

Here are the posts you're referring to. I like to keep all the facts up front:
[collapse=The Facts]

Yeah, didn't we just talk about the G&Wuff MU? It was established that Jiggs can't get past bair, nair, and dtilt, and the first two things could also set up for his kill moves (which kill Jiggs disgustingly early).

Edit: And Puff's supposedly good follow-up game doesn't have much merit against G&W, a character with a good momentum-cancel, great recovery, and a great ledge and planking game.

It's because in 2008 people looked at the MU and said "Hmm... G&W has strong KO moves and Puff is light. Dtilt beats her standard approach and G&W is good in the air and Puff's only strength is her air game"

Of course, I could say the same thing about several match-ups that I consider -2 or -3 and consistently win. No one has looked at the MU in-depth.

Bubba: lol at bair destroying Puff and linking into KO moves. You are showing again why you shouldn't comment on a match-up involving two characters you don't use- surprise, surprise.

Grim, will you shut up? We JUST had a discussion on these threads about the MU between G&W and Jiggs. Multiple people other than myself, including Jiggs and G&W mains, stated G&W's bair is also difficult for Jiggs to get past and both bair and nair setup for dsmash when positioned properly. Btw, I use G&W competitively and I've won bracket matches with him. I've even said so on here. I know what I'm talking about with Game. Stop being so eager to say, "You don't use these chars. Don't comment." You don't even know who I use other than DDD. You really sound like a person who needs to be smacked off his high horse right now.

Tl;dr - You're full of crap.

Ah, here we go. Even Alphicans said that G&W bodes Jiggs. For anyone who would like to see the fruits of our recent Jiggs vs G&W discussion:
[collapse=G&W destroys Jiggs.]

About the G&W:Jiggs MU, I honestly thought that MU was +3 simply because G&W's bair shut down Jiggs even harder than DDD's. Really simple thinking, I know, but I honestly couldn't think of an answer from Jiggs for Game's bair.

It's dtilt and nair that really **** up jiggs. That and a read with a smash attack kills at like 55-60%

Bair isn't a problem for anyone who has learnt to SDI.
Nair isn't that big a worry for anyone who has learnt to bait and punish.

Smash attacks, dtilt, and his other aerials are bigger problems.

Please go ahead and SDI bair all the time. This is a good setup for a dsmash so go ahead.
Nair is crazy, it covers all around GW where Puff can't do much about it and we can immediately land and throw a Dtilt. That alone gives Puff a lot of trouble. Not to mention nair does a lot of damage by itself. We need like 3 dairs and a dtilt to be able to kill. And yes we have those kill setups from a grab as well. It's not like it's impossible for Puff to do anything, but the risk vs reward here is comparable to Snakes tilts. And please don't fall for that Praxis bull**** about bair being ****, it's just not true. Bair is great.

Ah yes the "sdi beats gaw" argument. Not much I can say to this other than you're mostly wrong unless you wanna be a ***** about it.

Bait and punish nair? You're going to need to say more about this.

Also, I'm pretty sure that I've combo'd weak nair (last weak hits) into dsmash with G&W before.

This works in the same way as the bair one I mentioned. If they SDI out so that they won't be hit by the landing hitbox, it's an easy followup.

[/collapse]

I was wondering when you'd crack : P

The people who told you Jigglypuff has trouble with bair are misinformed. I don't know who you're talking about, but I can almost guarantee their thinking was something like "hurr durr Bair outranges Puff's aerials gg" - which is, like always, too simplistic.

Let's imagine the standard full hop bair spacing wall/approach. Keeping in mind that G&W doesn't really have any offensive mix-ups from this position... If he moves into Puff she can air dodge through on reaction and get frame advantage. This is a fact, and it leads to a guaranteed grab or potentially worse; dair.

If G&W is aware of this then he can do the bair in place or retreating - but if Puff doesn't take the bait then she is put in a favourable position (at worst for G&W, he is grabbed/bair'd, at best he is forced to shield, spot-dodge or throw out an attack).

So G&W can mix those two styles of spacing up, but Puff has a reactionary answer to both. If she gets read, she SDIs out immediately with ease and is barely harmed at all; while G&W will take at least 10% and relinquish all momentum to Puff.

I can cover SH bair as well, if you think that is any more effective.

Oh and the fact that you think G&W's bair can combo into a KO move in 2012... Against Puff of all characters kind-of invalidates all those bracket matches you've won.



EDIT: So the response to this will clearly be "even if you SDI out of bair, it still links into things - can I see some video evidence of this please?

To clarify, I'm not one of those people who thinks G&W loses to SDI, but it definitely makes bair non-spammable - anyone who has played G&W since before people SDI'd could tell you that.

I have no video evidence, but I've definitely comboed G&W's nair into dsmash before, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing was possible for bair for similar reasons.

Nair auto cancels very easily, doesn't last anywhere near as long and knocks people into hitstun a lot closer to his body.

The notion that bair could combo against a light, small character with multiple jumps and godly aerial mobility is absurd.



Oh yeah, it's funny to think that Nair beats Puff when her bair cleanly out-ranges it. Not that anyone will believe that, because "Puff has no range, G&W is aaalllllllll disjoints", but it's pretty clear from looking at hitboxes or actually playing the game.

Maybe now people will believe me when I say this character is misunderstood? Iunno.

[/collapse]
Basically, you're assuming that I brought up the bair thing. In actuality, someone else brought it up and no one bothered to oppose him, so it was left as 'fact', so to speak. I never endorsed nor opposed it. I simply said, "It was established that....." without tying myself into it whatsoever. Now, can we please stop talking about this? It's kind of silly if you ask me, and that's saying something, because I say a lot of silly things.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah that first post is the one I was talking about

 

[da K.I.D.]

I thought someone said Atomsk either didn't use it or it wasn't legal, which was why the set of 1Poke (or whatever his name is, I don't know, since, like, who am I) vs Will was brought up.... because the infinite was legal there.

Either way, it doesn't make sense to use the results of two totally disparate players to determine a match up. If I played M2K's Ganondorf with my MK, I'd get JV 4 stocked since, like, who am I. That doesn't determine the match up. Bringing that up is dumb and stupid and also dumb.

Also, -4, I guess, is referred to as an unwinnable matchup, but it's not as though there are rules in place that say "You're not allowed to win this."

Someone can **** up really hardcore. Someone could be at a different level than another player. Someone could not utilize the tools that make the match a -4. Argue results, but argue intelligently, don't just say "Something happened."

If I beat every high level player in existence just because I cut off their hands and they were unable to play because they had no hands, it wouldn't make me a top level player. I'd just be a psychopath.

The argument here is basically that things happened and it's ignoring the time in which it is actually happening. Results are important, but so are what goes on during the match. If someone's throwing the match, then guess what? The results of that match don't matter!

SO FRIGGIN' INSIGHTFUL, THIS KID.

Not saying anyone threw a match against DK as DDD, but, like, pay attention, don't just say "Nope, something happened that may or may not prove my point, so I'll just say it actually does prove my point."

Man, I love you so much right now.

Jimmy? is the ****ing man.

^^^^^

The infinite was legal. We really can't afford to be selective with the few matches we possess that have been played out at top level. Also, just pointing out that Neon also doesn't think that DDD:DK is +4. So don't everybody just look at me now.

Edit: And ftr, I've pointed out matches of three competent players losing to DK with DDD, not just two.

God, I hate you so much right now.

Sorry to do this to you again but I think you're pretty far off beating them. You lost to my Tink (who isn't even my main) on wifi and I'm a low-level player.

Granted it was wifi, but that connection wasn't that bad, and the point is that players like Tedeth, Shaya and Attila would body me consistently using random, with much worse connections. In fact Scoot/Swordsaint used to consistently body me all the time on wifi with random.

You can say 'lolwifi' or that you were sandbagging, but you stopped playing because you were getting annoyed that you couldn't execute what you were intending to, which isn't really the attitude of someone who is casually sandbagging.

Even so, top Aussies would still own me if they're sandbagging anyway. Tedeth's Captian Falcon (who he never plays) 2-1'd my main when he was sandbagging.

That's how bad I am at this game. So no offence, but anyone who loses multiple games to me isn't near high level and probably isn't an authority on this game.

Again, I'm sorry to do this to you, but I think the other lurkers are entitled to this perspective. More importantly, I think you need some perspective on your limitations as player.

But again, sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm0T7_SGee4

lol. but seriously, telling the truth should never require this much apologizing

youre stupid.

no youre stupid

No, YOURE stupid

No YOURE STUPID

NO YOURE STUPID

God, I kinda hate you both, Im going to have to call Joe in here to thread ban me for a week or something.

 

[Cassius.]

wait how did I verify your claim grim? I just said that Bowser's jab 2 has more range and at that distance Sonic would have to shield. I mean if I'm literally face to face with Sonic I'm not going to start mashing A like Dexter vs. Mandark or some **** lol

There's a difference between seeing Sonic move (at that point, it goes--okay, Sonic is moving). You still have to, before you even figure out what you're going to do, determine if he's charging at you or if he's faking you out. Additionally, Sonic always has that stop & go feature. Every character has that, but Sonic's spindash cancelling opens up a couple of other routes for him...I don't think any other characters can do that aside from the charge characters.

quite frankly even I have trouble determining that about Sonic sometimes and I'd like to think I have some really nasty *** reflexes (you kind of have to if you really want to play Bowser like he's supposed to be played) if you end up doing anything at all.

bubbaking i'm very concerned for you and what you post sometimes man...

we can go back and forth about the quirks of the match up, but at the end of the day it'll just come down to whatever happens behind the scenes when the panel starts going (who knows how long that will take though)

..what's the hold-up with that, any way? are people still deciding on members?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

so Bowser is -2 vs Sonic?

k

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I feel like I actually get dumber reading Bubbaking and Grim Tuesday arguing back and forth.

I think that Puff should higher, but not much, maybe a spot or two. I've never played Puff against a good main of a character, except 1 game against Stroumbert's Captain Falcon on wifi where I played the best I ever have and lost last hit on a missed rest after giving up a 2 stock lead, and 1 game against 1Pokemastr's Falco on Frigate in a small tournament that didn't matter at all and I got 1 stocked

Other than that I have no experience against a good player with Puff.

tl;dr I suck and should have no say in anything

 

[Cassius.]

Bowser isn't and won't be -2 against Sonic.

We talked about that last year and nothing happened. The ratio stayed the same. Nothing will happen this year.

 

[Espy Rose]

Yeah, it'll pretty much be the same.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Went last stock against shadow pj
Game 3 against DRN, forcing him off zss game 2.
Beat true blue.
Beat a pretty competent marth player in my pool, though I don't remember his name.
I also beat a not bad D3 who was in my pool. Actually went to game 3. I was scurred.

I lost to both Stingers and 8bitman, Rob.
If you watch the matches I did remarkably better against them with puff rather than zss.

And doubles should matter for something. It's one of the like, 5 times a puff has made money.
I went 100% puff in dubs losing only to Ally/mjg and denti/reflex.

 

[da K.I.D.]

gdi true blue is my boy, but he is nowhere near a notable win.

but when you play jigglypuff i guess you have to take what you can get.

 

[Kupo Rose]

Mink beat True Blue with ZSS, not Puff :|

 

[Luco]

They exist in Canada.

They also exist in Australia. I missed the last one by an hour or two and was only in the all tier tourney.

Oh an Ness as low tier? If shaky at WHOBO 4 and WABA has taught us anything, it's that Ness is not LT. He's getting consistent top 8's with that kid atm.

That's what i think, anyway. I can't wait for WABA vids to be uploaded.

@Bubba: The MU is bad for Ness but its not -4. Yink pretty much explained the MU perfectly when she was around, a bunch of people know it better than I do but basically with a decent mind-game and proper counter-picking your stages well, the MU isn't horrific. It's bad though, in my books definitely a -3 and no less, unless some game-changing aspect of Ness comes around to deal with being totally walled out and the GR and a bunch of other stupid gimmicky stuff.

 

[infiniteV115]

Most of them have already been uploaded (youtube.com/smashbrostvlive)
Just not Shaky vs Denti yet

 

[Luco]

:O

Awesome, i'm gonna look them up now. :D

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, you guys. Riddle me this. If infinites are so all-important in determining MUs, then why is DDD:Luigi only a +2? DDD has the same infinite on Luigi that he has on DK, and just for boons, he can gimp him when he sends him offstage (we already discussed this and people on both sides agreed with that).

 

[Seagull Joe]

Because is broken. For 1, it's not an infinite because a pummel is required and 's pummel is slow. you can small-step cg and then standing infinite at higher percents so he doesn't mash out from the required pummel. So basically is "infinited" while , , and are not. Not everything does gets him grabbed like most of what does. He has options vs and cannot regular cg him (Only standing grab which I listed its limitations above).

They should give me temporary mod powers to at least thread ban people for time periods/forever. I could definitely weave out the idiocy this thread produces.

as HT, as +3'ing , mains constantly posting other then the actual good ones, etc...

As a member of KaibaCorp, watch what you post or you will be fired (Thread banned for periods of time/forever by yours truly).

 

[Luco]

Because is broken.

They should give me temporary mod powers to at least thread ban people for time periods/forever. I could definitely weave out the idiocy this thread produces.

as HT, as +3'ing , mains constantly posting other then the actual good ones, etc...

Actually it's just one. And it's me. Thanks, man. thanks.

I thought this thread was meant to be... well, you know what I mean. It's why you guys have a BR.

Also to my knowledge no-one said anything about jiggz being HT and it was agreed the sonic-bowser thing was like, +/-2 OR closer to even wasn't it?

Oh well I suppose no-one will ever care what I say, cause i'm totally baised and low-level and yea i've heard this before...

 

[infiniteV115]

Because is broken. For 1, it's not an infinite because a pummel is required and 's pummel is slow. you can small-step cg and then standing infinite at higher percents so he doesn't mash out from the required pummel. So basically is "infinited" while , , and are not. Not everything does gets him grabbed like most of what does. He has options vs and cannot regular cg him (Only standing grab which I listed its limitations above).

They should give me temporary mod powers to at least thread ban people for time periods/forever. I could definitely weave out the idiocy this thread produces.

as HT, as +3'ing , mains constantly posting other then the actual good ones, etc...

As a member of KaibaCorp, watch what you post or you will be fired (Thread banned for periods of time/forever by yours truly).

I'm like 99.9999999999999% sure you're wrong on this.
DDD's dthrow has set knockback (which is why the cg can be done at any percent), so I'm pretty sure DK can be standing infinited at every percent.

And according to this thread, Mario Luigi DK and Samus all get standing infinited. And there's no mention of a pummel being necessary in order for the cg to work (and I don't see why a pummel would be necessary...it wouldn't alter the trajectory of the character after the dthrow since the dthrow has set knockback, so their position after the dthrow should be the same regardless of the pummel --> they're either in buffered standing regrab range under both conditions or under neither.)

Someone from the smash lab/Tech Chase please correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe we should get you banned from this thread

 

[Seagull Joe]

After 5 dthrow's without a pummel the game lets them be free. Try it yourself.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm pretty sure the infinite on Luigi doesn't need a pummel. I've done it myself at 0 and I never needed any pummel to do it.

Edit: Oh, you mean you need to do it after 5 dthrows? Well, that's not really a problem, lolz. Just pummel them as soon as you regrab them. It's pretty fast if you only need one.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm like 99.9999999999999% sure you're wrong on this.
DDD's dthrow has set knockback (which is why the cg can be done at any percent), so I'm pretty sure DK can be standing infinited at every percent.

And according to this thread, Mario Luigi DK and Samus all get standing infinited. And there's no mention of a pummel being necessary in order for the cg to work (and I don't see why a pummel would be necessary...it wouldn't alter the trajectory of the character after the dthrow since the dthrow has set knockback, so their position after the dthrow should be the same regardless of the pummel --> they're either in buffered standing regrab range under both conditions or under neither.)

Someone from the smash lab/Tech Chase please correct me if I'm wrong.

Maybe we should get you banned from this thread

You need to pummel once between dthrows to continue the infinite on Mario, Luigi and Samus.

DK doesn't need the pummel.

It feels like after the 4th use of Dthrow, it's like it changes into a different move entirely.

Edit: It's 4 dthrows, not 5.

Edit 2: Or is it 5? I can't remember.

 

[pidgezero_one]

cool signature infinitev115

 

[infiniteV115]

You need to pummel once between dthrows to continue the infinite on Mario, Luigi and Samus.

DK doesn't need the pummel.

It feels like after the 4th use of Dthrow, it's like it changes into a different move entirely.

Edit: It's 4 dthrows, not 5.

Edit 2: Or is it 5? I can't remember.

Wait really? Why? o.o
Doesn't dthrow have set knockback?

 

[Seagull Joe]

And you questioned me. Psh.

Seagull- 1
V115- 0

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Wait really? Why? o.o
Doesn't dthrow have set knockback?

Yeah, it's set knockback, but the trajectory seems to change after the 4th down throw so that grabbing after 4 down throws are in the stale move negation queue is impossible.