Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

Well, you're wrong about something Seagull. DDD actually can running CG Luigi. I'll pull up a quote from the relevant guide in a few...

Edit: Lolz, it's like Sakurai already knew about CG's.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Well, you're wrong about something Seagull. DDD actually can running CG Luigi. I'll pull up a quote from the relevant guide in a few...

I'll believe you when I see mains do it in tourney. Till then it's as theorycrafted to me as his buffered pivot grab infinite on .

I'll check if it's 4 or 5@Aerodrome. I'm pretty sure it's 5.

 

[deepseadiva]

13 viewers. So many people read this bad thread.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The running chaingrab on Luigi is easy, but there's no real incentive to do it because lolinfinite.

Also thanks Seagull <3

 

[infiniteV115]

That's really weird. I'll test it out on my own later, cause I really don't see how the trajectory on a move with set knockback that can't be DI'd/SDI'd can change.

Maybe DDD's such a fat **** that by being so close to another character for so long, they actually get infected by his diabetes and get heavier, causing their trajectory to change.

Seagull, how about we change that at Apex with a MM?

Also I've read numerous times that Marth and everyone heavier than Marth gets CGed by DDD, and anyone lighter than Marth doesn't get CGed. And Luigi is heavier than Marth, so....

 

[bubbaking]

Here you go. It's been tested already. I'm not saying it's easy or feasible in tourney, but it's possible:
[COLLAPSE="Vayseth's Chaingrab Guide"]

Chapter 2.1: Standard Chaingrab General Information

Did you know King Dedede's D Throw is actually two hits? Yes, if you go into training mode and perform a down throw you can see that there are two consecutive hits, each dealing 4% for a total of 8%. The first hit is the sitting down animation and the second hit comes from a waft that is created which sends the opponent away in the direction they were grabbed a set distance, regardless of how stale the D Throw is and what percent the opponent is at. The waft portion of the move can stale, from what we can tell, but the specifics of the throw in detail will be covered in the Standing Infinite Chaingrab section, since it effects how that move is performed.

What allows the chaingrab to work is after the hitstun has taken place the opponent lands. The hitstun is similar for every character. It involves the opponent turning slightly sideways in pain before finally landing in what I like to call "landing dust." If you played melee you'd know precisely what this looks like because to perform a wave dash you must leave the ground and land very quickly causing dust to appear as you're dashing. The same holds true in this game. Why the opponents move that set distance is because their hitstun is being directed in a specific direction at a set distance by the waft, the second hit of the King Dedede D Throw.

The opponent cannot input anything while they are riding the waft. For any chaingrabbable character, this is before they land, which almost always looks like the opponent is kneeling slightly before they stand. They can input moves at that instant. If you see a shield, you know your opponent can input commands. Your goal is to grab them before they get up from the ground. Some characters slide further than others, which was detailed in my grab release chapter. So, instead of listing characters that could be chaingrabbed, I've ordered those characters in order of the difficulty to efficiently chaingrab them by counting the number of times on average the opponent could be successfully chained from one side of Final Destination to the other. I'll order them the same way we order our match ups in match up topic: Red, for "Very Hard", Green for "Average", Blue for "Easy", and Pink for "********". I'll also add in Oranage, for "Hard."

Before we move on, I want to encourage everyone to read Buuman's thread. I will source it constantly, but his "Grab Laws" section are extremely important nuggets to keep in mind when you are chain grabbing.

Buuman's King Dedede Grab Laws:

• If you shield grab chain grab perfectly, you will get more grabs/chain grabs off overall.
• If you down throw immediately after a re grab during the chain grab, the sliding animation will be negated
• If you want to change the distance of the slide during a chain grab, wait a minimal amount of time between dash grabs, OR grab attack during the chain grab, you will get the same effect.
• If you input a grab during your running animation you will dash grab. It MUST be finished in order to do a standing grab, this includes the ending part of the dash animation, when Dedede slows down.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Source: Dedede Database (The *Buuman trap* included). http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224054

Chapter 2.2: The Chainable Few

******** Difficulty (3 Grabs Max):

• Luigi

VERY HARD Difficulty (4 Grabs Max):

• Diddy Kong
• Toon Link
• Pit

HARD Difficulty (4-5 Grabs)

• Peach
• Ice Climbers (Solo Popo or SoPo)
• Marth

AVERAGE Difficulty (5-6 Grabs)

• Mario
• Yoshi
• Wario
• Link
• Gannondorf
• Samus
• R.O.B.
• King Dedede
• Wolf
• Captain Falcon
• Ivysaur
• Charizard
• Lucario
• Ike
• Ness
• Lucas
• Snake
• Sonic

VERY EASY Difficulty (6+ Grabs!)

• Bowser
• Donkey Kong

A brief explanation of this list:
1. ********- Luigi slides really far away making the difficulty for a regrab as well as the timing required to successfully chain D Throws together is very tight. Be careful or you'll eat a fire punch.

2. VERY HARD- These three slide a good deal out of the way and are able to be grabbed again, but not by much. Again, the timing to successfully chain your D Throws is a very small window.

3. HARD- These guys can be chained effectively more times than the previous three, but the window to chain D Throws is very tight.

4. AVERAGE- These are your average 5-6 grab across the stage guys. Some you'll only get 5, some you can squeeze in 6, it all depends on your buffering and timing. Don't worry about screwing this up.

5. VERY EASY- You'd have to be an idiot to not successfully chain grabs against these guys. The timing is so forgiving it's a joke. They move only a short distance from King Dedede that you won't even need to take more than a step sometimes (*cough* Walking Chaingrab *cough*).

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sure. Though I'm not amazing vs . That character is so weird.

And what the ****@Bubba actually quoting the entire cg thread. We all know he CAN cg , but nobody does it other then the standing cg.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's really weird. I'll test it out on my own later, cause I really don't see how the trajectory on a move with set knockback that can't be DI'd/SDI'd can change.

Well, uh, okay. Probably no point in testing it since I've tested a majority of Dedede's stuff in depth in Frame Advance and OpenSA2, but go for it.

 

[bubbaking]

@V: The 12 lightest characters in Brawl cannot be CG'd by DDD. That is the law.

 

[infiniteV115]

S
Weight/Launch Resistance

1. Bowser (120)
2. Donkey Kong (116)
3. Snake (113)
4. King Dedede (112)
5. Charizard (110)
6. Ganondorf (109)
7. Samus (108)
8. Wario (107)
8. Yoshi (107)
10. R.O.B. (106)
11. Ike (105)
12. Captain Falcon (104)
12. Link (104)
14. Wolf (102)
15. Ivysaur (100)
15. Lucario (100)
17. Mario (98)
18. Luigi (97)
19. Sonic (95)
20. Lucas (94)
20. Ness (94)
20. Pit (94)
23. Diddy Kong (93)
24. Ice Climbers (92)
24. Toon Link (92)
26. Peach (90)
27. Marth (87)
28. Sheik (85)
28. Zelda (85)
30. Falco (82)
30. Olimar (82)
32. Zero Suit Samus (81)
33. Fox (80)
34. Meta Knight (79)
34. Pikachu (79)
36. Kirby (78)
37. Mr. Game & Watch (75)
37. Squirtle (75)
39. Jigglypuff (68)

Yup. 12 characters are lighter than Marth.

Sure. Though I'm not amazing vs . That character is so weird.

Pre-MM johns?
I'm liking this already.

 

[Seagull Joe]

v115 is the best . Better then even his idol Teevee.

Edit: Yeah it's either 4 or 5 Aerodrome. I have staling in my training mode so I couldn't be sure which was which. Either way after 5 if I didn't pummel I couldn't re-grab.

 

[bubbaking]

What do you mean "I have staling in my training mode"?

 

[Shaya]

Dedede's down throw has two hitboxes that hit you, one that scales and the other (the second hit) which doesn't. Move queue somehow makes an infinite a non-infinite by one of the hits delivering less hitstun or something.

 

[Luco]

hey how did this thread suddenly erupt in to flames of activity? Curious.

Anyway, you kinda have to admit that the cg against luigi is really bad and is probably not worth doing. >.>

Are you sure, V115? I seem to recall (sorry pointing to my main again -_-) that on FD I can kill Jiggz with a fully charged Usmash at like 27/28% the first time whereas nothing below 29/30 will kill her afterwards.

 

[infiniteV115]

What do you mean "I have staling in my training mode"?

When playing Brawl without any sort of mods, moves in training mode don't stale.
Seagull has a Brawl mod (nothing huge, all the physics are the same in vs mode probably) where moves stale in training mode (and probably a bunch of other stuff like a different CSS, custom music, character/stage textures, etc)

 

[Shaya]

You are so weird, Joe lol

Meh next major I'll have at least made somewhat of a name for myself (even if it's only in Melee) so I won't have to put up with "lol everything you say is theorycraft you have no idea how top level play works"

Who is wiser?
The man who says he knows everything,
Or the man who knows he knows nothing.

Top level brawl play is using and understanding options at the most minuscule pinpoint accuracy. In my experience, Jigglypuff doesn't have the diversity of options, nor nothing that strains at a person's reaction speed to capitalise on player skill differences.

If you can legitimately beat me with Puff you're probably better than Mink, but you've been boasting about jigglypuff and stating your credentials to the en masses of America for a long time, including before you played me and lost; in my opinion harshly.

I know you're not the only one who comes in here and believes they're relevant. I just know you personally and know that you're a good guy. The best brawl puff player in the world is likely a top level player who knows nothing specific about her other than her moves and has a feel for her momentum, and that's because, honestly (No offense to anyone) there are no top level or high level puffs. Our Mr.X probably has a better understanding of her mus due to being significantly better at knowing how other characters work and uses what he has to abuse what he can with Puff. We would love Mr.X to come along, but he probably won't, so we're left with who/what is the most relevant, and right now Grim, it isn't you. And it's pretty facetious for you to be in the "I'll show you boat" for this long and still nonchalantly rejecting the 'best' credentials available.

Although number positions may be important to some people, when it gets to positions in individual tiers at the lower ends of the list it doesn't matter. Puff realistically cannot be above G tier, and has a hard time shaping up towards characters within her own tier let alone above.

 

[BSP]

I'm pretty sure the infinite on Luigi doesn't need a pummel. I've done it myself at 0 and I never needed any pummel to do it.

Edit: Oh, you mean you need to do it after 5 dthrows? Well, that's not really a problem, lolz. Just pummel them as soon as you regrab them. It's pretty fast if you only need one.

It is a problem. Unless the // are at a pretty high percent, they should be able to mash out before can continue the infinite.

I can't speak for , but it doesn't matter much for anyway. He still gets put offstage + plenty of damage from the normal CG

But it's incorrect to say they get it as bad as DK. For Luigi at least, if you don't infinite him, you have to go a decent distance before you regrab him. DK gets small-step CG'd easily.

 

[Luco]

I just know you personally and know that you're a good guy.

In the end, I personally think most people who go to tournies are pretty decent, which is why i'm always surprised by the discrepancies concerning people when they post here and people when you meet them.

Sorry, I know it's not relevant, just always something that has interested me.

 

[bubbaking]

When playing Brawl without any sort of mods, moves in training mode don't stale.
Seagull has a Brawl mod (nothing huge, all the physics are the same in vs mode probably) where moves stale in training mode (and probably a bunch of other stuff like a different CSS, custom music, character/stage textures, etc)

OK, I just wanted to confirm. I know about mods, lolz! I have P:M, Minus, and even a version of vBrawl that has Melee hitstun a.k.a. no early hitstun cancelling. It's pretty fun actually.

The best brawl puff player in the world is likely a top level player who knows nothing specific about her other than her moves and has a feel for her momentum, and that's because, honestly (No offense to anyone) there are no top level or high level puffs. Our Mr.X probably has a better understanding of her mus due to being significantly better at knowing how other characters work and uses what he has to abuse what he can with Puff. We would love Mr.X to come along, but he probably won't, so we're left with who/what is the most relevant, and right now Grim, it isn't you. And it's pretty facetious for you to be in the "I'll show you boat" for this long and still nonchalantly rejecting the 'best' credentials available.

Speaking of good LT users who don't actually main the chars, I personally think NinjaLink's Jiggs is pretty good. I think he was also one of the top 5 Lucas users at one point. Of course, there's also San who apparently is good with Jiggs, despite being an Ike main.

 

[bubbaking]

Sorry, double post.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Hungrybox's puff is pretty good.

And yeah, i beat True Blue with ZSS.
That's the only set i won using her.

Granted, if anyone watched my playing from WABA you'll see my puff was on fire.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Who is wiser?
The man who says he knows everything,
Or the man who knows he knows nothing.

Top level brawl play is using and understanding options at the most minuscule pinpoint accuracy. In my experience, Jigglypuff doesn't have the diversity of options, nor nothing that strains at a person's reaction speed to capitalise on player skill differences.

If you can legitimately beat me with Puff you're probably better than Mink, but you've been boasting about jigglypuff and stating your credentials to the en masses of America for a long time, including before you played me and lost; in my opinion harshly.

I know you're not the only one who comes in here and believes they're relevant. I just know you personally and know that you're a good guy. The best brawl puff player in the world is likely a top level player who knows nothing specific about her other than her moves and has a feel for her momentum, and that's because, honestly (No offense to anyone) there are no top level or high level puffs. Our Mr.X probably has a better understanding of her mus due to being significantly better at knowing how other characters work and uses what he has to abuse what he can with Puff. We would love Mr.X to come along, but he probably won't, so we're left with who/what is the most relevant, and right now Grim, it isn't you. And it's pretty facetious for you to be in the "I'll show you boat" for this long and still nonchalantly rejecting the 'best' credentials available.

Although number positions may be important to some people, when it gets to positions in individual tiers at the lower ends of the list it doesn't matter. Puff realistically cannot be above G tier, and has a hard time shaping up towards characters within her own tier let alone above.

I actually like this post quite a lot.

Sorry that everyone has to put up with my inferiority complex.

I'll try to be less of a ******.

EDIT: With that said, I do think I will succeed next time I play interstate. My Puff boasting from when I first started playing Brawl was basically just me immaturely trying to make a name for myself (and foolishly thinking being the best in Australia - not that I was - with a garbage tier character meant something anyway). Now I feel like I know what I'm doing, I just can't really prove it due to my being in SA + other johns johns johns and I want my opinion to matter

I realize that's not going to seem different to anyone on the outside, but eh, worth saying anyway.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I gotchu man

When i first joined i was like "I am the best jiggs in the world"
and then i got my *** whooped my anyone and everyone.
And i was one of those kids on the boards we all can't stand.

But, somehow people think i'm good.

And i have no idea what changed.

 

[Tesh]

did ESAM have a kaiba avatar? every time seagull posts I'm like "wtf is ESAM talking about?"

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I still think I'm the best. I just won't force everyone to hear about it.

I don't remember that Tesh :/

 

[ViperGold42]

Hungrybox's puff is pretty good.

And yeah, i beat True Blue with ZSS.
That's the only set i won using her.

Granted, if anyone watched my playing from WABA you'll see my puff was on fire.

hell yeah it was, and I didwatch your set with True Blue....I'm not a fan of his name since he stole it from my University.

 

[Luco]

I actually like this post quite a lot.

Sorry that everyone has to put up with my inferiority complex.

I'll try to be less of a ******.

EDIT: With that said, I do think I will succeed next time I play interstate. My Puff boasting from when I first started playing Brawl was basically just me immaturely trying to make a name for myself (and foolishly thinking being the best in Australia - not that I was - with a garbage tier character meant something anyway). Now I feel like I know what I'm doing, I just can't really prove it due to my being in SA + other johns johns johns and I want my opinion to matter

I realize that's not going to seem different to anyone on the outside, but eh, worth saying anyway.

The way this thread has gone has very much made me re-consider my thoughts and rights on posting here. I love debating here, I enjoy all the discussions we have and yes, I suppose I like being right, being told my opinions on something matter and the rest of it. In the end, I suppose not all gamers are created equal. Do I have a right, even to talk about my own character? I know seagull has been trolling a lot lately but maybe he has a point.

But, without a way to either prove that I should or should not be here, what can I do? I enjoy playing smash so much and i've always wanted to be a notable player (which I suppose is the sentiment of any competitive player)... and dang I want that so much.

 

[KRDsonic]

Back when I had people to play against, I used to do D3's normal chain grab on Luigi since my neighbor alted him and I didn't like infiniting him

 

[bubbaking]

And i was one of those kids on the boards we all can't stand.

You mean.........you were a bubba? :-O
[COLLAPSE="THIS is a bubba."]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Shaky]

Giving my 2 cents do I don't get blamed for ness having a messed up matchup chart:

Ness vs Marth: -2.5 in my opinion. The infinite does not work as well as people think, Shaya did it on me when I played him and he only got like 15% on me because I ended up sliding offstage.

Ness vs Snake: -2, would be -3 if it weren't really easy to gimp snake (at least for me it is).

Ness vs MK: -2, complicated matchup, looking at it objectively would be -2.

Ness vs Wario: -2, should be -1 in my opinion but GR makes it -2.

Ness vs Falco: -1, I suck at this matchup so I'm basing this ratio on FOW's performance.

Ness vs ICs: -2, also suck at this matchup, but I don't think it's impossible.

Ness vs DK: -2.5 (if I can take ESAM to last hit this is not -4 guys)

Ness vs DDD: -3, yeah it sucks. Hardest matchup by far. Seibrik sucks for letting me take him to last hit.

Looking at these ratios makes me wonder how I even place at tournaments... maybe I should main MK.

Up to the person making the chart if they want to take my ratios into consideration or not, I'm not debating them or further explaining them.

 

[bubbaking]

Is ESAM really being used as an example of a good DK for that MU? I thought his DK wasn't that good...

 

[Shaky]

DK is one of his actual secondaries and he is arguably top 3 player in the country. How can his DK not be "that good?" He can probably pick up Ness tomorrow and be better than me in less than a week.

 

[bubbaking]

I was always under the impression that Will, Neon, and Nairo's were better. And then you have that Attila the Hun, guy... And then Mar1...

Edit: I'm not saying ESAM's DK isn't good. I'm just saying that's what I thought. My opinion, you know...

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wait really? Why? o.o
Doesn't dthrow have set knockback?

basically the way I understood it was that ddds down throw actually had reverse KB scaling and actually sent people further back the staler it got.
Dont know if thats how it actually is, but its how I make sense of it.

Speaking of good LT users who don't actually main the chars, I personally think NinjaLink's Jiggs is pretty good. I think he was also one of the top 5 Lucas users at one point. Of course, there's also San who apparently is good with Jiggs, despite being an Ike main.

San has the best jigglypuff.

I'm not further explaining them.

Why is that? It would be nice to just have a little bit of info regarding things like this when necessary.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

San's Puff is quite good.

I haven't seen San do anything for ages, what's happening with that guy?

 

[bubbaking]

@Shaky - Just wanted to point out a conversation I had with Attila earlier:

I'm supposedly a top 5 DK for Brawl, so I understand how to mindgame and read and such, it's more what are some basic things I can do without wavedashing/advanced techs?

Wait a sec! I'm looking at the top 5 Brawl DK list right now. It's Will, Nairo, Neon, Mar1, and ESAM... Where are you on that list? <____<

That hasn't been updated in awhile, I've had other DK's tell meeeee. But if you wanna be technical like that, then no, I'm not considered top 5 on a grand scale. Then again, top 5 with DK means nothing because there's really only Will.

Edit: Mar has been inactive lately, and no-one knows why ESAM is on there in the first place. The other DK who would be on that list would be S2, but we're in a melee thread talking about Brawl.

Attila is a great DK player to my knowledge and could probably replace MAR1 on the forgotten top 5 list...

Forgive me if I'm a little skeptical as to how ESAM's DK is very influential in a discussion about DK's MUs.

Edit: I'm not even saying that his DK's not top 5 or anything, but apparently, unless you're one of the top 2 or 3 DKs (Will, Neon, maybe Nairo?), then your DK isn't that good on a "grand scale".

 

[Peachy-Desu]

I also wouldn't call Poke technically proficient (not that he's particularly technically inept, he's just not anything special when it comes to tech skill).
And he had also recently switched over to the GCC after using the Wiimote for like a year (I believe the tourney where he played Will was his 2nd tourney ever using the GCC)

Which would explain the screwed up infinites, and why POKE paused while WILL was trying to mash out of the infinite.

Spoiler

Dat Canadian tech skill

Also Poke never pulls out his DDD except when he decides that his Marth/DK/Falco combination isn't strong enough to take on Red X's Ness, or against Will's DK. He has pretty much no exp in the DDD:DK MU.

And he's also not a top player.

LOL how cruel V. Have some faith.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes in a really complex program at a really prestigious college (most high level smashers are also really smart/geniuses in real life, fun fact) so I assume thats where hes been. In combination with our region being dead. But that tournament i won a couple weeks back, I was told he would be at, and he no-showed. which was weird.

also, i remember when a top 5 list of dks meant something, back when my boy Dr. G was around before SC2. And cable.

 

[bubbaking]

KID, who are you talking to and what about?

Edit: Or rather about whom?

 

[Raziek]

Don't sleep on my boy Attila (the Hun, **** Australia). He's very solid, but lacking in experience.

That said, I agree with the statement that if you're not Will or Neon, you really don't matter on a national scale with DK.

As a quick aside, Nova Scotia Top 4 is Billybeegood's MK, Croi's Wario, my Marth, Attila's DK. All very close in skill level.

I choked on my own **** at Retribution, but Croi beat P1. So we're not ***, and he does well here.