Official BBR Tier List v7

[bubbaking]

I play Melee (and I use up on the control stick to FH in that game) so I'm used to having tap jump on all the time anyway.

So Mario's JCupB OoS would work against ZSS' uncharged dsmash on shield...I think it's the only move though XD

Pit's upB gives him invincibility from frames 1-4 and the windbox pushes you on frame 5. He can then fly away, or he can attempt to attack you OoUpB on frame 29. Bowser gets invincibility from frames 1-5 and the hitbox comes out on frame 6, but even if he doesn't hit, he can run away to lessen the punishment. Can Bowser still fortresshog like he could in Melee? Samus has invincibility from frames 1-4 and the hitbox comes out on frame 5. While this may seem like it suffers from Marth's upB problem, Samus's Screw Attack actually has a good chance of shieldpoking or outright breaking your shield:

Another really cool thing about this move is that it EATS shields. Thats right, gobbles them up. It will easily break many many shields (unless your name is Bowser/D3/Snake/DK).

 

[da K.I.D.]

samus can only do shield damage if you are above her. since people on even ground with her can only get hit by the hit that pops you into the rest of it. which wont happen i fyoure shielding.

 

[Orion*]

It's easier to experiment with what works and what doesn't when you know if something is even possible by looking at the frame data. It's a nice point of reference for a lot of things.

This

This.

If I mained yoshi I'd agree

Does anybody know what the powershield window is in this game? I feel like its 3 frames to melees 1. but I wasnt never told for sure.

I always thought brawl was much more than 3 for some reason, but idk.

I was going to say Marth's up B, but his invincibility starts on frame 1 and hitbox frame 5 iirc so it doesn't work v.v

this

ZSS dsmash is good at what it does because it doesn't have much competition but it isn't anywhere near being a candidate for "best move in the game."

I wouldn't even put it in top 10.

Maybe?
If characters that actually are good had that move I'd disagree.

Imagine with all of MKs frame traps if instead of hard reading your landing w/ his dsmash, he could trap you and double dsmash to double hit nair. Or mixups on shield pressure.

Imagine the massive amount of damage snake could do and how hard it would be to get in combination with nades, pivot grab and (incase you go high) utilt. He could just simply double dsmash, dthrow, and if he has a hard read on your roll reset for another double dsmash to a 12% dthrow.

Imagine diddy naner locking into them and how much gauranteed damage he'd have. Also how hard it would be to get past, banana/dsmash/peanut walls LMAO

those are just examples, but pretty much it's not that amazing a move simply because ZSS lacks the mixups and versatility to make it as scary as it could be.

In the case of punishing paralyser down smash out of shield, it doesnt matter when he is invincible, since the move is minus 4 and the hitbox comes out on frame 5. it means she can jsut shield and punish it afterwards.

this

 

[infiniteV115]

I play Melee (and I use up on the control stick to FH in that game) so I'm used to having tap jump on all the time anyway.



Pit's upB gives him invincibility from frames 1-4 and the windbox pushes you on frame 5. He can then fly away, or he can attempt to attack you OoUpB on frame 29. Bowser gets invincibility from frames 1-5 and the hitbox comes out on frame 6, but even if he doesn't hit, he can run away to lessen the punishment. Can Bowser still fortresshog like he could in Melee? Samus has invincibility from frames 1-4 and the hitbox comes out on frame 5. While this may seem like it suffers from Marth's upB problem, Samus's Screw Attack actually has a good chance of shieldpoking or outright breaking your shield:

By 'work', I meant hitting her OoS.
If Bowser uses upB and the invincibility only lasts from frames 1-5 and he drifts away from ZSS with it, she can just grab/dash grab him.

And yeah what K.I.D said about Samus shieldbreaking lawl

 

[Grim Tuesday]

True, but he wrote the book on frame data and hitbox research. You've seen his Journal/Encyclopedia of studies for Melee, right? The man's work is pretty much what most of us base a lot of our knowledge on. For instance, I still can't find a better rankings list of grab ranges than what M2K initially wrote when testing them. I know he isn't frame perfect, but he definitely has a "super extensive knowledge of frame data" and in his case, it probably isn't "overrated". I mean, how else do you think it was discovered that 'perfect MK planking' is, well, perfect?

He worked those values out by pause buffering, not being able to 'count frames' or anything like that. I could've done the same thing if I had his dedication, doesn't give me 'super extensive knowledge of frame data'.

And he didn't discover perfect planking...

 

[bubbaking]

Can Bowser fortresshog in Brawl?

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah .

 

[DMG]

He worked those values out by pause buffering, not being able to 'count frames' or anything like that. I could've done the same thing if I had his dedication, doesn't give me 'super extensive knowledge of frame data'.

And he didn't discover perfect planking...

MMMMMMMMMMMMMM

10mk

Jason was ahead of everyone else on a lot of Brawl stuff, either due to "feel" or due to studying it himself. Early days of Brawl, I think he was the first person who knew or abused the invincibility on grounded shuttle loop.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I know of Jason's early dominance, I just don't think it means that he 'plays by frame data' or however you want to phrase it, which is what this was about.

 

[RaptorTEC]

No one does. That would be silly.

 

[infiniteV115]

What exactly do you mean by 'plays by frame data'?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Factors frame data into his playstyle to a significantly greater extent than the average top level player.

 

[RaptorTEC]

What makes you think top players put a lot of emphasis on frame data?

 

[deepseadiva]

This is becoming very roundabout.

 

[bubbaking]

I never said M2K plays or played by frame data. I simply said that he uses the info, just like the rest of us. I was just off on a few of the details, I guess.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Top players all have a certain base of understanding. Its the reason why squirtle gets a guaranteed jab after GR. its why good players punishes are so good. some people like me know way more frame data than certain other players that play by feel or instinct but there has to be at least a base of knowledge there.

 

[bubbaking]

And M2K did put a lot more time than many of us into testing frame data and hitboxes and stuff, and not only in Smash games either. He has journals of information on things like the best F-zero car builds for certain tracks and stuff like that. The guy likes researching, testing, and archiving competitive information.

 

[da K.I.D.]

but was it worth the price?

The inability to properly function in any and all personal and social situations unrelated to said games?

Was it really worth it?

 

[infiniteV115]

You make it sound like studying video games caused him to develop Asperger's.
Which, you know, makes no sense at all.
I'm fairly certain the reason he studies and analyzes video games to the extent he does is due to his OCD.

 

[Life]

KID that was kind of callous. You act like M2K chose to have Aspergers.

 

[deepseadiva]

Let's talk about people we don't know.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Nah, its not like that. Its just that people sometimes act like this dude is like the greatest guy in the world and has a perfect life because he gets to travel all over the place and win all these tournaments and stuff.

Im just saying I know a lot of people who would switch lives with him because of the little they see and know about him. And thats probably not the best idea.

 

[Spelt]

Meno's extremely vague and slightly on-topic statements make this thread at least 3% better.

 

[Life]

You could have phrased it that way the first time.

I have a love/hate relationship with myself. It's kinda bizzarre. Wouldn't trade with anyone here though (off the top of my head anyway).

 

[da K.I.D.]

and for the record, Ive had enough personal conversations/experiences with him to know what hes about.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Nah, its not like that. Its just that people sometimes act like this dude is like the greatest guy in the world and has a perfect life because he gets to travel all over the place and win all these tournaments and stuff.

Im just saying I know a lot of people who would switch lives with him because of the little they see and know about him. And thats probably not the best idea.

They arn't talking about his personal life though. They're just giving credit where credit is do. He really did write up personal journals on how to beat certain players, and studied the frame data probably harder then anyone at the time.

His personal life, and what he does outta smash. Envy or not I don't think thats any of our business to dwell into unless ya really know the guy.

 

[Iota]

M2K either has a more severe case of autism than aspergers or just refuses to learn how to act properly in a social environment. Aspergers is nowhere near enough of a severe form of autism to be used as an excuse for the things I've heard he's done.

just my 2 cents

 

[C.J.]

Holy deal @ people saying he's autistic still; he's not. He has a few traits indicative of autism, but he isn't autistic. I'm around autistic people, all over the spectrum, on a regular basis and he's not the same.

Lets talk about wolf. Wolf is interesting

Or sonic

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm pretty positive that there is a 10 frame window in Brawl to Powershield. Same as any other buffering.

 

[Iota]

I want to agree with C.J. but I don't know enough about M2K to make that kind of judgement.

Sonic is dumb. Wolf's bair is gay.

 

[C.J.]

Seagull, it's 4 frames to PS

 

[Seagull Joe]

Holy deal @ people saying he's autistic still; he's not. He has a few traits indicative of autism, but he isn't autistic. I'm around autistic people, all over the spectrum, on a regular basis and he's not the same.

Lets talk about wolf. Wolf is interesting

Or sonic

is fast on the ground. is fast in the air.

/discussion

 

[Iota]

It annoys me that Wolf has the same maximum air speed as Wario. Good thing he doesn't have our air acceleration and fast fall speed.

 

[KRDsonic]

Let's talk about how Wolf's Bair is amazing.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lets talk about how much better wolfs bair would be on sonic.

 

[Iota]

Or how good it'd be on Wario. We'd finally have a good momentum cancel.

 

[Seagull Joe]

's fat. He doesn't need to momentum cancel. He lives long enough as it is.

 

[Iota]

It'd be nice to have a momentum cancel that isn't almost as bad as Snake's though. I'm sure you Wolves wished you had a decent fast fall for momentum canceling.

 

[Shaya]

Wait a second...

ZSS' arm is extended way far out for a few frames and is completely vulnerable at the front to sexy disjoints like Marth's neutral air which is sooo good at punishing the ***** on reaction. While more obvious than down smash, Zero Suit's grab and side b also have these massive vulnerabilities due to extending hurtboxes -before- the grab/hitboxes come out.

Power shields can occur for the first 3 frames of shielding.

Also Mew2King is probably the best player in the world in pause matches. He is so good/precise at it from all the years of mereee.

 

[DMG]

I'm pretty positive that there is a 10 frame window in Brawl to Powershield. Same as any other buffering.

Good lord no

If you could PS in a 10 frame window, people would spam shield to get the ridiculous PS and punish. Imagine how easy it would be to PS Nado and punish.

Wait a second...

ZSS' arm is extended way far out for a few frames and is completely vulnerable at the front to sexy disjoints like Marth's neutral air which is sooo good at punishing the ***** on reaction. While more obvious than down smash, Zero Suit's grab and side b also have these massive vulnerabilities due to extending hurtboxes -before- the grab/hitboxes come out.

Power shields can occur for the first 3 frames of shielding.

^^^

Was pretty certain in Brawl you can PS from 1-3 frame