Official BBR Tier List v7

[ffdgh]

Ahh Even tho i know peach has her issues, I enjoy how she constantly stays in the same spot and slowly move up XD

 

[Life]

As posted in Sonic General:

Storytime!

So I'm playing Roller in friendlies before bracket

I play Sonic for a couple of games (twostocked and threestocked, managed to gimp Nana once and that's about it) and I get bored so I go random.

The stage is Delfino. I get Bowser.

I say something along the lines of "Well, crap. Wait, isn't this supposedly like an even matchup or something?"

So I spend a decent chunk of the game trying to figure out what I can get away with without lagging massively because I don't play Bowser. He gets a grab pretty quickly, but stage transition breaks the grab. So I camp harder and eventually get grabbed again anyway. Like I said, I don't play Bowser.

So it's the transition before the part on the one rooftop, I'm on my second stock, and I manage to snag Nana with side-B. So I Bowsercide, successfully jump out of it (which I was never able to do while actually trying), and the stage comes up and saves me. So I eventually kill Popo (with a down-B no less), die two more times, and that's the game.

In case you didn't see what happened:

With Bowser, a character I don't play and have no idea how to play, I did as well or better against Ice Climbers than with Sonic, my main.

tl;dr? Bowser versus Climbers really is even. 0_o

 

[RaptorTEC]

Ganon vs IC's is also even

 

[Coney]

friendlies before bracket

ok

10okays

 

[bubbaking]

As posted in Sonic General:

So it's the transition before the part on the one rooftop, I'm on my second stock, and I manage to snag Nana with side-B. So I Bowsercide, successfully jump out of it (which I was never able to do while actually trying), and the stage comes up and saves me. So I eventually kill Popo (with a down-B no less), die two more times, and that's the game.

I'm no Bowser expert and I've never played a Bowser. How exactly did you Bowsercide and jump out of it? (O_o)

 

[DMG]

Easy. Use Bowsercide, and before you die at the bottom blast zone you can jump out. Usually this is meaningless, since Bowser's vertical recovery is balls and 95% of the time he would still die, but in that case it saved him

 

[bubbaking]

Ah I see. Also, it begins...

Bowser's neutral B makes this matchup really challenging. His dtilt is also really scary. I used to think this matchup was in Bowser's favor, but it's probably even.

Yeah it's too strong :< I've tried for years to try and counter it but honestly it's the best tool bowser has in edgeguarding the ICs and approaching as well. I think the MU can be won by ICs if they're really good at it, but it seems to be pretty difficult for me :/ also Delux agrees with me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I will never believe this troll.

 

[RaptorTEC]

This is preposterous.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I came up with a way where I bearly have to use fair as Peach. I figured out the ways of the bair lock on a hard knock down after hours of viewing the video very closely and the damage from the bair.

(Yea I can do the bair now lock and there is many ways I can set this up. So yet ANOTHER method to rack up damage and keep my moves fresh. Peach looking good so far, still much work to do.)

So I set my L button to jump. I wanted to see what other things I can do with L as jump instead of my bair lock. I can tilt the stick the other way then quickly jump and Peach will be facing the other way. Then hit the C stick foward and I can bair. So instead of having a 16 frame move infront of me, I can switch that with a 6 frame move. This makes it much easier to get in on marth now, since one of her best tools to get in is her bair.

Fair I would use as a FRESH finisher or to start shield pressure. Now I won't be havig bair so much staled (thats the point of my mission in fixing her metagame). But with this, I just took care of having a slow option in front of me. I can still keep my momentum with this too.

I also got the footstool lock down on DK and DDD. Thats my progress so far.

 

[bubbaking]

DDD gets a guaranteed dair off of a grounded footstool, right? Can't test it out now. No Wii to use...

 

[Dark.Pch]

No he can't, Peach is the only character that can do such a thing since she can footstool cancel.

For those interested on what I am cooking up

http://www.twitch.tv/darkpch

 

[| Big D |]

Doesn't mean other characters can't get guaranteed follow ups from footstools.

 

[bubbaking]

I always thought DDD could dair off of footstool because you can act very quickly out of the footstool animation and DDD reaches really far down with dair.....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Puff can Rest from footstool on Yoshi and Wario, that's all I know.

 

[Myollnir]

Ivysaur can D-air everyone, Squirtle and Charizard can D-air many characters. Bullet Seed and Fly also work on many characters.

I know Ivysaur can N-air Wario as well (it should also work on Yoshi then, I remember an old thread saying that Jigglypuff could rest Yoshi and Wario out of a footstool).

I guess some characters can hit Wario out of a footstool. Are there any characters that can be hit out of a footstool easier than the others (like Wario/Yoshi (?) )?

 

[Seagull Joe]

gets a guaranteed Dair from a ground footstool. It's the best way to separate lol. Dair camp>Ground footstool dair>KILL.

 

[bubbaking]

If Puff can rest, how come DDD can't bair?

Edit: Starting to sound more and more like DDD does get something guaranteed off of footstool...

 

[Luigi player]

gets a guaranteed Dair from a ground footstool. It's the best way to separate lol. Dair camp>Ground footstool dair>KILL.

Just watch out to not get grabbed during footstooling one climber...

 

[Myollnir]

^That's what I was going to say. Getting grabbed out of a footstool is disgusting...

But I play ICs so it's funny. :D

 

[bubbaking]

They can grab you out of the air?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Every character can grab you out of the air

Except tethers (?)

 

[bubbaking]

I meant, they can grab you when you're above them?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS can grab people out of the air, can't speak for other tether characters.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ivysaur just has an incredibly low grab hitbox, which is basically the equivalent of that.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi can get people out of the air.

Grabbing people out of the air just depends on the grab-box placement, I'd say.

 

[Myollnir]

Ivysaur just has an incredibly low grab hitbox, which is basically the equivalent of that.

Ivy's grab is good on slopes though, you can grab an aerial nado with it (and Jab it but that's a different story).

But yeah, I wish it could grab a little higher.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I meant, they can grab you when you're above them?

They have good vertical range on their grabs, so they can.
Remember this game is all about interactions of hitboxes and hurtboxes.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I have a hard time believing anyone just "can't grab out of the air" because of hitbox placement, unless it's just lower than the landing detection.

 

[Luco]

Every character can grab you out of the air

Except tethers (?)

Oli and Lucas can both grab you in the air. With the other people who said so then yea, tether characters are ok for grabbing people out of the air.

It's just... unless you're oli, yoshi or lucas, that's incredibly unsafe to do. :/

 

[Iota]

Ivysaur's pivot grab is just as fast as Lucas' (kindaish). It just has poor range in comparison to the other pivot tether grabs.

 

[Luco]

Ivysaur's pivot grab is just as fast as Lucas' (kindaish). It just has poor range in comparison to the other pivot tether grabs.

Oh? I apologize then, I honestly didn't know. In that case, the statement should be, "Unless you're oli, ivy, yoshi or Lucas, that's incredibly unsafe to do." =)

Also, is it just me, or is yoshi's pivot grab slightly slower than lucas' pivot grab? It could be that i'm used to my main... maybe it's just the animation looks slower than it is? Just feels slower, anyway...

 

[Iota]

Yoshi's pivot grab is 14 frames faster than Lucas' it seems. Also reflex if you could tell me ivy pivot grab frame data that'd be nice, I couldn't find it anywhere. .- .

 

[Luco]

Yoshi's pivot grab is 14 frames faster than Lucas' it seems. Also reflex if you could tell me ivy pivot grab frame data that'd be nice, I couldn't find it anywhere. .- .

O_O

That's nuts.

Yeah, I looked it up as well, Lucas' grabs earlier I think though. I can check again. Also gonna look for ivy's.

EDIT: Nope, Yoshi's grabs earlier than Lucas' as well. I must be going insane.

I also couldn;'t find ivy's pivot grab frame data. Why, Shaya, why??

 

[Iota]

I did find a thread with Ivy's frame data. It didn't have his grab frame data in it though x_x

 

[TheReflexWonder]

All of Ivysaur's grabs are frame 13, I think. Animation for pivot grab ends on frame 37.

 

[Iota]

Interesting. Thanks Reflex.

 

[Youngster Joey]

when you guys play this game do you actually think about frame data? idk how it all works together..

 

[bubbaking]

Ivysaur's pivot grab is just as fast as Lucas' (kindaish). It just has poor range in comparison to the other pivot tether grabs.

DDD's grabs almost out-range Ivy's.

when you guys play this game do you actually think about frame data? idk how it all works together..

Well, it's not like anyone's frame-perfect, but knowing frame data does give one a general idea of what's safe in certain situations, and it also allows one to figure out what follow-ups are possible in specific scenarios. For instance, knowing DDD's frame advantage on his dthrow and GRs dictate what follow-ups he has. An example is the guaranteed dtilt he gets off of pummel releasing the PK kids. As a guideline, human reaction time is a little faster than 0.2 seconds. With 60 frames per second, that's 12 frames, so I wouldn't expect any normal human being to be able to react to anything with faster than 10 frames of startup.

 

[Luco]

when you guys play this game do you actually think about frame data? idk how it all works together..

Bubbaking has it. I don't think in frame data in a real match. What I do is learn something with frame data, practice it and use the muscle memory from that to help me in a match. That's how I learnt the ICs CG, rather than using when they hit the ground or whatever indicator they give you. It takes time but it works. =)

It also allows you to theorycraft much better.