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Official BBR Tier List v7
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Well, yeah, but at this point I'm sure we've removed the issue of "Luigi is getting gimped by DDD".
He'll probably still be in a bad spot and will be eating damage, though.
Behind Falco, who is 2nd or 3rd, you mean.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
There's a player in my region that genuinely thinks ZSS is 6th best (behind MK, ICs, [Oli/Diddy], Marth)
I was all like '***** u cray'
I was all like '***** u cray'
^ over time i've started to feel the same way, I felt she had tons of potential but never really got to truly see it until this year. I think she's somewhere after Falco maybe even higher than Falco maybe even higher than he is, she's still being researched as a character and the users have slowly been finding ways around turtling which did used to be a problem for her very early on. With frame traps, foot stool locks, dash attack locks i think her only real issue is her learning curve get past that you've got one amazing character.
ZSS> Snake i'm sorry but snake is just a typical bass fisherman, throw out bait wait for them to bite and reel them in ZSS has so much more to her and so many frame traps like stun pistol and her other moves it's somewhat hard to believe when you stack them both up that snake is still higher in all honesty his only purpose in this meta game is to just slow everyone else's meta game down because he's such an easy option at mid level play, that other characters don't get repped quite as well early on.
oh BTW Marth underperforms because he isn't that good he's as predictable as Obama winning the 2008 election
ZSS> Snake i'm sorry but snake is just a typical bass fisherman, throw out bait wait for them to bite and reel them in ZSS has so much more to her and so many frame traps like stun pistol and her other moves it's somewhat hard to believe when you stack them both up that snake is still higher in all honesty his only purpose in this meta game is to just slow everyone else's meta game down because he's such an easy option at mid level play, that other characters don't get repped quite as well early on.
oh BTW Marth underperforms because he isn't that good he's as predictable as Obama winning the 2008 election
Your location reads "Europe", isn't your continent's first place slot dominated by Marth players?
Luigi player
Smash Master
Marth might be predictable, but his fair is so fast... 
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Not sure if serious.
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
ZSS is really good, but I hope people see the drop off in performance after her pieces are gone.
Pieces are literally the best tools in the game. Competitively speaking.
Pieces are literally the best tools in the game. Competitively speaking.
SoulPech
Smash Master
Xubble
Smash Ace
Where do you think he'll be going after a fair or bair?
Offstage with no cyclone and no double jump.
Hellooooooo gimpable.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I find it highly unlikely that you will consistently hit Luigi outside of a landing punish if he's recovering high (at this point, meaning Luigi is above the stage with or without a double jump), especially if you mention using Uair to hit him, since lol SDI.
Also, I'm assuming that the MU won't be happening on FD so Luigi can have tools to avoid the CG, so he will also have platforms to assist him in his landing.
Also, I'm assuming that the MU won't be happening on FD so Luigi can have tools to avoid the CG, so he will also have platforms to assist him in his landing.
oh man this would work in the instance that luigi does the followingWhere do you think he'll be going after a fair or bair?
Offstage with no cyclone and no double jump.
Hellooooooo gimpable.
momentum cancel, cyclone for height, side b, then double jump.
I wouldn't recover this way against D3 I would only do
momentum cancel, side b snap ledge
momentum cancel, side b but I would let go when I know my opponent won't go low enough to gimp me, then rise with cyclone, double jump, up b
Momentum cancel, double jump, rise with cyclone to gain height, try my best to airdodge D3's upair(if I do get hit I'll SDI) or I can fall with cyclone as D3 is nearing me to hit me with upair and hit him before he hits me.
Of course depending on the situation I'll change up my recovery. A smart luigi won't just follow the same recovery option.
This is the main problem with discussing mus. On paper one can say " well I can do option x" but when you're playing other factors come into play and not everyone sees the same option or chooses to do them.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Did he really?!? 
If he did, that's awesome! 
Yeeaaah, I realize that now. I kinda just said "Luigisama said..." in one sentence and hoped that you wouldn't assume the same situation for the rest of the sentences, which was wrong. Sorry for the bad wording!
Yeah, I'm starting to believe less and less that I actually forgot some chars. Tbh, I was really just quickly grabbing chars off the top of my head when I listed the chars who would have an easy time avoiding DDD offstage. I mean, those 5 basically have much better recoveries and versatility offstage than the rest of the chars I left out. As for Wario, I'm pretty sure I recall Iota posting here that Wario is actually very gimpable if he can't DI high, even worse if he doesn't have a bike (it's onstage or he'd just used it or something).
As for all the others, uhhhh, heh heh, I guess I was a bit overzealous there. I mean, I've never played a good ZSS or ROB, the best Pika I've ever played was Phoenix Lord's and the best Pits I've played were Dabuz, John12346, and Smurf, mostly John though, and I actually never did that MU as DDD, I think, idr. In my experiences against Pit in other MUs (G&W and Marth), whenever I got him offstage, I pressured him until he actually got back to the ledge. I'm very well aware that Pit has some of the best tools in the game to avoid getting gimped. However, he also has one of the biggest offstage weaknesses in the game: He doesn't get his recovery back if he's hit out of his upB and he's not allowed to attack his oppressor during the upB unless he's sure that he's already good on his recovery. So in my eyes, I see nothing wrong with being aggressive with him and harassing him until he actually does recover. If you get a lucky hit, he dies. If you don't, oh well, try again next time. Again, I've never really done DDD
it (to the best of my memory) but in Marthit and Gameit, that's what I do, and it works. In DDD's case, if it so happens that DDD has to bail and go to the ledge and Pit gets to the stage, DDD has good options off the ledge. As I've said in my comments on the Ike MU, he has ledgehop AD, which can follow up into grab if Pit is too close, and he has ledgejump (different from ledgehop) dair.Ummm, just playing the others out in my head, if ZSS was recovering offstage. I'd go for her. I know about her flipstool and all that, but I'd try to either bait it and punish its small lag or.....idk, something. I mean, I'd rather go for the chance that I can hit her further away from the stage and then ledgehog her tether than just willingly accept the large disadvantage that DDD has against ZSS onstage at neutral.
ROB, I guess I legitimately don't know. I think we wreck him onstage. I'd be willing to go after him offstage. I guess I'm just that aggro kind of guy. I play Melee competitively (before Brawl) and am also really into P:M. I just really hate letting the opponent get back onstage for free. Perhaps this mentality creates bias in my mind, but I really feel that DDD has good tools for gimping/harassing offstage. DDD, Marth, and G&W, they all can do it. That's partly why I play these three chars. I tried to pick up Snake, 'cause I liked some of his complexity and he kinda struck me as similar to Melee Samus (my main) with his heavy weight and his great long-range game, but he flounders too much offstage and I just couldn't deal with it.
![[FBC] Papa Mink](/data/avatars/l/166/166410.jpg?1363023093){kind=avatar}
[FBC] Papa Mink
Smash Legend
Never forget.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
IMO, this is the mindset that I greatly disagree with. Fox is very gimpable. I've gone against Foxes and Falcos (but not Top ones). It's a big guessing game with huge repercussions for the spacee if he ever ends up below the ledge as a result. If I can catch either after their DJ with an attack that sends them far enough (or with low enough KB) that they have to recover from below the ledge, it's a free stock. There's no question that DDD's taking that stock if they have to upB. So now, the trouble comes with taking them out of their other recoveries. Utilt, dtilt, ftilt, and bair all can do it. I just have to predict which one I should use and when I should use it. I'm not saying that the odds of guessing correctly are in my favor, but the situation most definitely IS to my advantage. If Falco gets back on, I'm at a disadvantage at neutral, and if Fox gets back on, life gets really difficult, but not as bad as Falco. I'll take the guessing game when the situation is favoring me rather than let them reset it to neutral.
Of course, in this specific MU, there are good benefits that can also be had from staying onstage. Fox/Falco do have lag after sideB, so if they choose to sideB through me and I shield/PS it, I can grab them and send them right back offstage to reset the offstage scenario. It's all part of the guessing game. In Fox's specific case, I also have to account for shine stalling in the air, so that's annoying, but IMO, that's better than the possibility of Falco meteoring me, but I'd still go for the gimps in either case, and I think DDD has a, as I put it earlier, "good shot" (
) at gimping those two.Ah, I see... Thanks for the clarification!
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Word, man! I swear, when I'm out there trying to gimp Luigi, I'm just praying that he either doesn't get a misfire, or I'm at low enough %'s to not die instantly if he does.
The stage spikes that thing can get are also ridiculous. 
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Responding to the underlined part.IMO, this is the mindset that I greatly disagree with. Fox is very gimpable. I've gone against Foxes and Falcos (but not Top ones). It's a big guessing game with huge repercussions for the spacee if he ever ends up below the ledge as a result. If I can catch either after their DJ with an attack that sends them far enough (or with low enough KB) that they have to recover from below the ledge, it's a free stock. There's no question that DDD's taking that stock if they have to upB. So now, the trouble comes with taking them out of their other recoveries. Utilt, dtilt, ftilt, and bair all can do it. I just have to predict which one I should use and when I should use it. I'm not saying that the odds of guessing correctly are in my favor, but the situation most definitely IS to my advantage. If Falco gets back on, I'm at a disadvantage at neutral, and if Fox gets back on, life gets really difficult, but not as bad as Falco. I'll take the guessing game when the situation is favoring me rather than let them reset it to neutral.
Of course, in this specific MU, there are good benefits that can also be had from staying onstage. Fox/Falco do have lag after sideB, so if they choose to sideB through me and I shield/PS it, I can grab them and send them right back offstage to reset the offstage scenario. It's all part of the guessing game. In Fox's specific case, I also have to account for shine stalling in the air, so that's annoying, but IMO, that's better than the possibility of Falco meteoring me, but I'd still go for the gimps in either case, and I think DDD has a, as I put it earlier, "good shot" (
What exactly do you consider 'a good shot at gimping someone' like statistically?
To me a good shot, sounds like something that would happen once a game, maybe once every other game. But based on the bolded parts of your post, it really doesnt sound like your going to make all those guesses correctly at the same time every game. Once per set you might get a stock from it. But as it is, it sounds like you are either over estimating yourself or your character
I mean, i just played a ddd whos probably about as good as you with fox in tournament this weekend, and in the two games, i recalled being put in difficult situations, but theres too many ways for fox to vary what hes doing to lose stocks under 100 just from getting thrown offstage
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Don't worry, I'm spoilering most of this stuff.
A good shot means that it is feasible that it could happen, maybe once every other game, as in, it's not hard to believe and could definitely happen with the right reads. For instance, there is no good shot at gimping MK. No matter how hard you read his actions, he'll always have another option to work around you or just smack you in the face. Same goes for similar chars, like Kirby. If a gimp can be taken with a good guess out of a few predetermined set possibilities and outcomes, even if it's a hard read, it's still a good shot at gimping, especially if you have nothing to lose. There's a good chance that I won't guess correctly against Fox every time, but there is still a feasible chance that I will guess correctly, maybe even consistently. The chance of me guessing correctly at least once during a game increases the more I put Fox and myself through the scenario. Part of this lies with noting your opponent's patterns in certain situations. When you threaten your opponent with a certain attack/position, does he tend to sideB high or at the ledge? Does he sideB as soon as you make a move? Things like that. I am not overestimating myself. However, saying that DDD will never guess correctly in these situations is nothing short of overestimating Fox and underestimating DDD. Fox is not invincible and once he chooses to sideB, his path is very linear and interceptable, it's just impossible to react to.
Also, don't forget that a large part of the game is just staying onstage. Bair was only one of the options I listed. The others I said were dtilt, ftilt, utilt, and shielding and grabbing. If I guess right with a dtilt or ftilt onstage, then I can gimp. If you grab the ledge and try to ledgehop sideB through me and I predict this and ftilt you beforehand, you're in a position to be gimped. Also, it's worth noting that, if DDD reads that you're going to sideB to the ledge, he can quickly run off and grab the ledge, thus scoring his gimp without hitting you at all. That's another option that I almost forgot.
"If I can catch either after their DJ with an attack that sends them far enough (or with low enough KB) that they have to recover from below the ledge." This includes ledgehops, of course. Also, my gimp attempts don't HAVE to based on catching them without their DJs, I'm just saying that if I DO happen to catch them without it, they recover from below the ledge and they die.
"I just have to predict which one I should use and when I should use it. I'm not saying that the odds of guessing correctly are in my favor." Don't forget that I can cover the same recovery option with multiple options. Ftilt and dtilt can be used for the same scenario, in many cases. SH bair and utilt will both cover sideB's at head level. The reason the odds of guessing correctly aren't in my favor isn't because I have more than one attack to use, lolz! It is because Fox has more than two options for his recovery. Reading Fox's recovery is all that matters. The move I use is irrelevant as long as it covers that option.
"I also have to account for shine stalling in the air, so that's annoying, but IMO, that's better than the possibility of Falco meteoring me." Personally, shine stalling is annoying mostly because it slows down the pace of the match. Fox still has to go through the major recovery options that he has. It just shifts the timing of the actual recovery and thus the relevant gimp option. As for Falco meteoring me, that's really just a punishment for DDD not covering himself with a hitbox when covering a certain option.
[collapse=Stages]Did you ban Lylat? If not, did DDD CP you there? The slopes of this stage can do some mean things to Fox when he's offstage. IIRC, Fox gets less lag out of his sideB if it ends in the air right above the ground instead of on the ground. Slopes can ruin this entirely and make it all too easy for DDD to punish. Then of course, the stage could also tilt up and cause Fox to accidentally sideB under it. The gimping part, though, I feel comes when the stage tilts down and messes up the spacing of Fox trying to sweetspot the ledge from below DDD dtilt/ftilt range. Not really something to depend on but it's nice to keep in mind.
CS's third tranformation has the same tilt issues that Lylat has.
On PS2, DDD can pull off some pretty sweet tricks. John12346 has been constantly getting me into the groove of using the treadmills to cancel the lag of any move I desire. As such, I figured out a little trick for my DDD. I can land with bair at the edge, be carried off immediately by the treadmill, cancelling all lag, and then bair immediately again at ledge level. It's a nice little edgeguarding trick that helps DDD cover a lot of space. In Fox MU, turn around and SHFF bair at the edge. When Fox sees DDD facing backwards in the air on the ledge, he becomes comprehensive. He sees bair, he goes for the ledge, only to meet bair on the way there. Something else I devised that I have yet to actually try is ftilt > nair/fair. I'd imagine that, if I caught Fox with ftilt on the treadmill, I could also easily follow up with a bair gimp.
On RC, I see many potential chances for Fox to be gimped, especially when we're off that blasted ship. If I catch you and send you into that big cavity in the center of the stage's movement (the area under the pendulum and to the right of the carpets' starting points) off a carpet, off the pendulum, off the platforms right before the large stretch of walk-offs, off of sooo many areas while the stage is moving around between the ship and the walk-off on the top, Fox will very possibly have to upB, giving DDD a chance to gimp.[/collapse]
With all due respect, to the best of my knowledge, you don't play my character. I know you didn't say this, but when someone says, "DDD can't gimp Snake. You're crazy!", it just makes me shake my head. Gimps can be both onstage and off. I know what I did to Fatal at that Boston tournament. I CG > PR > GR'd him and almost 0-to-death'd him. If I had been a bit faster on my capitalization, I know I could have gimped him successfully. I could have footstooled him out of his C4 or baired him or Inhale released him out of his subsequent Cypher or something. DDD Inhale Releasing Snake is also a pretty well-known thing. You can't tell me that DDD can't gimp someone as awful offstage as Snake.
I have a question here. Why do all the top DDD's say this MU (DDD:Fox) is even and not -1? This question is actually detached from my discussion. I just want to get the opinions of actual good DDDs on why this MU is even. From the previous discussion, all I really read was "all these top DDDs beat all these top Foxes and they feel the MU is even". I actually want to know what their reasoning is. I do think the MU should be even, though.
A good shot means that it is feasible that it could happen, maybe once every other game, as in, it's not hard to believe and could definitely happen with the right reads. For instance, there is no good shot at gimping MK. No matter how hard you read his actions, he'll always have another option to work around you or just smack you in the face. Same goes for similar chars, like Kirby. If a gimp can be taken with a good guess out of a few predetermined set possibilities and outcomes, even if it's a hard read, it's still a good shot at gimping, especially if you have nothing to lose. There's a good chance that I won't guess correctly against Fox every time, but there is still a feasible chance that I will guess correctly, maybe even consistently. The chance of me guessing correctly at least once during a game increases the more I put Fox and myself through the scenario. Part of this lies with noting your opponent's patterns in certain situations. When you threaten your opponent with a certain attack/position, does he tend to sideB high or at the ledge? Does he sideB as soon as you make a move? Things like that. I am not overestimating myself. However, saying that DDD will never guess correctly in these situations is nothing short of overestimating Fox and underestimating DDD. Fox is not invincible and once he chooses to sideB, his path is very linear and interceptable, it's just impossible to react to.
Also, don't forget that a large part of the game is just staying onstage. Bair was only one of the options I listed. The others I said were dtilt, ftilt, utilt, and shielding and grabbing. If I guess right with a dtilt or ftilt onstage, then I can gimp. If you grab the ledge and try to ledgehop sideB through me and I predict this and ftilt you beforehand, you're in a position to be gimped. Also, it's worth noting that, if DDD reads that you're going to sideB to the ledge, he can quickly run off and grab the ledge, thus scoring his gimp without hitting you at all. That's another option that I almost forgot.
"If I can catch either after their DJ with an attack that sends them far enough (or with low enough KB) that they have to recover from below the ledge." This includes ledgehops, of course. Also, my gimp attempts don't HAVE to based on catching them without their DJs, I'm just saying that if I DO happen to catch them without it, they recover from below the ledge and they die.
"I just have to predict which one I should use and when I should use it. I'm not saying that the odds of guessing correctly are in my favor." Don't forget that I can cover the same recovery option with multiple options. Ftilt and dtilt can be used for the same scenario, in many cases. SH bair and utilt will both cover sideB's at head level. The reason the odds of guessing correctly aren't in my favor isn't because I have more than one attack to use, lolz! It is because Fox has more than two options for his recovery. Reading Fox's recovery is all that matters. The move I use is irrelevant as long as it covers that option.
"I also have to account for shine stalling in the air, so that's annoying, but IMO, that's better than the possibility of Falco meteoring me." Personally, shine stalling is annoying mostly because it slows down the pace of the match. Fox still has to go through the major recovery options that he has. It just shifts the timing of the actual recovery and thus the relevant gimp option. As for Falco meteoring me, that's really just a punishment for DDD not covering himself with a hitbox when covering a certain option.
[collapse=Stages]Did you ban Lylat? If not, did DDD CP you there? The slopes of this stage can do some mean things to Fox when he's offstage. IIRC, Fox gets less lag out of his sideB if it ends in the air right above the ground instead of on the ground. Slopes can ruin this entirely and make it all too easy for DDD to punish. Then of course, the stage could also tilt up and cause Fox to accidentally sideB under it. The gimping part, though, I feel comes when the stage tilts down and messes up the spacing of Fox trying to sweetspot the ledge from below DDD dtilt/ftilt range. Not really something to depend on but it's nice to keep in mind.
CS's third tranformation has the same tilt issues that Lylat has.
On PS2, DDD can pull off some pretty sweet tricks. John12346 has been constantly getting me into the groove of using the treadmills to cancel the lag of any move I desire. As such, I figured out a little trick for my DDD. I can land with bair at the edge, be carried off immediately by the treadmill, cancelling all lag, and then bair immediately again at ledge level. It's a nice little edgeguarding trick that helps DDD cover a lot of space. In Fox MU, turn around and SHFF bair at the edge. When Fox sees DDD facing backwards in the air on the ledge, he becomes comprehensive. He sees bair, he goes for the ledge, only to meet bair on the way there. Something else I devised that I have yet to actually try is ftilt > nair/fair. I'd imagine that, if I caught Fox with ftilt on the treadmill, I could also easily follow up with a bair gimp.
On RC, I see many potential chances for Fox to be gimped, especially when we're off that blasted ship. If I catch you and send you into that big cavity in the center of the stage's movement (the area under the pendulum and to the right of the carpets' starting points) off a carpet, off the pendulum, off the platforms right before the large stretch of walk-offs, off of sooo many areas while the stage is moving around between the ship and the walk-off on the top, Fox will very possibly have to upB, giving DDD a chance to gimp.[/collapse]
With all due respect, to the best of my knowledge, you don't play my character. I know you didn't say this, but when someone says, "DDD can't gimp Snake. You're crazy!", it just makes me shake my head. Gimps can be both onstage and off. I know what I did to Fatal at that Boston tournament. I CG > PR > GR'd him and almost 0-to-death'd him. If I had been a bit faster on my capitalization, I know I could have gimped him successfully. I could have footstooled him out of his C4 or baired him or Inhale released him out of his subsequent Cypher or something. DDD Inhale Releasing Snake is also a pretty well-known thing. You can't tell me that DDD can't gimp someone as awful offstage as Snake.
I have a question here. Why do all the top DDD's say this MU (DDD:Fox) is even and not -1? This question is actually detached from my discussion. I just want to get the opinions of actual good DDDs on why this MU is even. From the previous discussion, all I really read was "all these top DDDs beat all these top Foxes and they feel the MU is even". I actually want to know what their reasoning is. I do think the MU should be even, though.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
cbf reading the whole thing but Kirby's recovery isn't that good yo
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Cbf?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
can't be ****ed
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Man, I was off.
The Česká basketbalová federace (ČBF) (Czech Basketball Federation) is the governing body of basketball in the Czech Republic.
The Česká basketbalová federace (ČBF) (Czech Basketball Federation) is the governing body of basketball in the Czech Republic.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Oh, lolz!
Edit: Well, Kirby's recovery obviously isn't as good as Puff's, but it's still really good, imho.
Edit: Well, Kirby's recovery obviously isn't as good as Puff's, but it's still really good, imho.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Well no, Puff's recovery is one of the best in the game.
But even then, Kirby is just soooo linear when he needs to move towards the stage. I mean he's not bad, but he's definitely gimpable.
But even then, Kirby is just soooo linear when he needs to move towards the stage. I mean he's not bad, but he's definitely gimpable.
I don't think spacies are easily gimpable at all. Once you play someone who really understands his options and mixes up properly it gets quite difficult. Especially with Fox who can screw you with shinestalling and a much longer upB.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I thought it was odd at the time, but he did actually counterpick me to lylat, i banned delfino since I started the set with sonic. will respond to th rest later
Luigi player
Smash Master
Kirbys recovery is pretty good distance-wise, but it's really unsafe. It's easy to hit him out of it, since he can't auto-snap to ledges.
Although he'll still make it back most of the time and just take some damage, except against mk...
Although he'll still make it back most of the time and just take some damage, except against mk...
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Fixed that for ya!
So you think he's worse than DDD and TL?
......................okay! /So you're telling me that Fox isn't gimpable but Kirby definitely is?
And speaking about DDD no less... Kirby can fly circles around DDD, can't he?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Based off of watching ChuDat vs Coney, it doesn't seem like DDD can really edgeguard Kirby that well.
Kirby seems to edgeguard much better in this MU.
Kirby seems to edgeguard much better in this MU.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Kirbys airspeed is almost as bad as ddds, so hes not very good at avoiding attempts to hit him while hes offstage. same with ddd. Both of them depending on character can bair people away from them while recovering. but they both should be taking damage when recovering. kirby will obviously be getting hit less due to being a bit more mobile, while ddd is a giant and is far heavier than kirbz, meaning he'll live through a lot more.
Bubba, as far as ddd gimping many characters, fox in particular, I think the difference in ideas comes from the fact that we seem to disagree with the risk:reward ratio. you seem to think that every time ddd throws fox off stage than he gets a chance to end the foxs stock at no hazard or risk to his own. I dont know if you know Omega Tyrant (he's the ddd i played in winners finals this past weekend) but when I played him, he did a lot of the things you were saying, and utilizing most of the options you refer to to get me offstage and harass my stock. But the problem is that, if I got him to commit to a wrong option (since ddd is so slow in comparison to fox, the ddd is the one that has to commit to attempting to intercept one of foxs recovery options first) hes eating a 24% fair, and im now in the position where Im land camping him. or he mistimes a side b punish and eats 6% and now im land camping him because hes above me. Or even if I dont hit him with my recovery and he just guesses wrong and whiffs me, I get a free pass to the stage and now were back to neutral. And neutral game fox vs ddd is solidly in foxs favor due to lasers, mobility and speed of attacks. So the risk is a lot higher for the ddd than you give it credit for.
youre also putting too much stock in things that you dont really have all that much control over. Like, you really shouldnt be considering bad DI at all for this kind of thing because at the level that everyone is going to be determining matchups on, most people have near perfect DI. plus, unless youre hitting somebody with a wall of pain of bair airs ddd doesnt really have ANY moves that send at the knockback angle that you are refering to that would be required to get these low percent gimps.
and to answer youre question, moving from the bottom up in skill levels, the matchup starts far in foxs favor and gets closer and closer to even the better the two get. all things considered, its an even matchup because DDD does obnoxious amounts of damage at once, and then has a number of ways to kill fox with an up tilt at 90 (thats 6 back throws btw) and build damage by getting him offstage. Fox, in response wins a much higher number of small damage encounters, and can kill ddd at about 125 or so. they both have ways of killing each other very fast. But a lot of Foxs pressure and offense is really, for lack of a better word, scrubby. And you learn how to not take as much damage from him the better one gets at the game. (sdi does a number on that character.
Bubba, as far as ddd gimping many characters, fox in particular, I think the difference in ideas comes from the fact that we seem to disagree with the risk:reward ratio. you seem to think that every time ddd throws fox off stage than he gets a chance to end the foxs stock at no hazard or risk to his own. I dont know if you know Omega Tyrant (he's the ddd i played in winners finals this past weekend) but when I played him, he did a lot of the things you were saying, and utilizing most of the options you refer to to get me offstage and harass my stock. But the problem is that, if I got him to commit to a wrong option (since ddd is so slow in comparison to fox, the ddd is the one that has to commit to attempting to intercept one of foxs recovery options first) hes eating a 24% fair, and im now in the position where Im land camping him. or he mistimes a side b punish and eats 6% and now im land camping him because hes above me. Or even if I dont hit him with my recovery and he just guesses wrong and whiffs me, I get a free pass to the stage and now were back to neutral. And neutral game fox vs ddd is solidly in foxs favor due to lasers, mobility and speed of attacks. So the risk is a lot higher for the ddd than you give it credit for.
youre also putting too much stock in things that you dont really have all that much control over. Like, you really shouldnt be considering bad DI at all for this kind of thing because at the level that everyone is going to be determining matchups on, most people have near perfect DI. plus, unless youre hitting somebody with a wall of pain of bair airs ddd doesnt really have ANY moves that send at the knockback angle that you are refering to that would be required to get these low percent gimps.
and to answer youre question, moving from the bottom up in skill levels, the matchup starts far in foxs favor and gets closer and closer to even the better the two get. all things considered, its an even matchup because DDD does obnoxious amounts of damage at once, and then has a number of ways to kill fox with an up tilt at 90 (thats 6 back throws btw) and build damage by getting him offstage. Fox, in response wins a much higher number of small damage encounters, and can kill ddd at about 125 or so. they both have ways of killing each other very fast. But a lot of Foxs pressure and offense is really, for lack of a better word, scrubby. And you learn how to not take as much damage from him the better one gets at the game. (sdi does a number on that character.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Woah, long post. Reading now...
You mean "can't", right?
The length of the upB is quite inconsequential. Once you begin charging your "FIRE!", I have plenty of time to see what you're doing and cover your only options of getting back to the stage. The Firefox has no priority compared to DDD's bair. I've almost never failed to gimp a spacee who had to resort to upB when I was actually there at the ledge. However, sideB, of course, is a very different story. Fox has a longer sideB, right?
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Not really lol. They're both pretty far down on the list, but there's a big difference between them.
It's the same difference as between Falcon's and Zelda's airspeed, or between Wolf's and Bowser's.
On top of that, Kirby has much bigger jumps and is much better (ie faster) at changing directions.
o.o No
It DOESN'T seem like DDD edgeguards Kirby well.
If I used can't, it would be a double negative = DDD edgeguards Kirby well. Which I don't think he does.
...Perhaps you misread?
RaptorTEC
Smash Champion
I think he misread lol
I mean't more like baiting you into committing into an option against sideB, but instead using upB to recover while you whiff. Though this might not be very good against Dedede, it seems to work pretty fine against doublejumping characters.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Yeah, I misread.I think he misread lol
What? Don't give me that, man! Wow! Yoshi's air speed is twice as fast as DDD's?
This probably won't work against DDD. If I bair to try to catch sideB, I have plenty of time to go out and bair (or even fair, tbh) upB, whether I'm onstage or off, thanks to multiple jumps + fast fall and all that. I can also just grab the ledge to ledgehog you if you're too far away. If you try to go high, it's even worse. I'd just trust in my sideB + shine mix-ups if I were Fox. UpB can be reacted to every time.
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