Official BBR Tier List v7

[Maharba the Mystic]

lol i love how reflex is still dodging dark peach like hours after i get off work. what a *****

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lol i love how reflex is still dodging dark peach like hours after i get off work. what a *****

Every thread you post in turns to ****, seriously.

Why aren't you banned yet? You contribute nothing of value and you are constantly inflammatory. I've seen people permabanned for less, tbh.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

im not flaming. it's true. dark peach has every right to rage at him. idk why he doesn't answer the question. if anything he deserves an infraction for trolling dark peach.

edit:

lmao why did you bother quoting the post when it was the last post?????????

badplayer

edit2: you haven't seen anyone permabanned for less because you've never banned anyone. unless you have mysteriously gained mod powers and banned people for less yourself i really don't see what your talking about. it would be impossible for you to see the process of someone being permabanned, you could only see the result

im just pointing out what should be obvious to you

very obvious.

triple edit:

actually let me show you how to get a thread closed by trolling.

i summon m.j.g (averil) shadow1pj (thebest1pj) kingtoon (kt kasrani) near quest quivo chip santi hyro and the rest of the toonlinks.

the names have been spoken. it is only a matter of time

 

[Xubble]

ANYWAY

I think I mentioned Sheik vs. Olimar a bit ago. I'd like to change that to...

vs.

I don't think I've ever seen it played before, at least at top level play.

 

[DMG]

No one plays Shiek, and no one plays Wario. Case closed

(It's really evenish)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im not claiming to be a top level shiek, but from what ive seen and done, its a very simple matchup for shiek and the wario is the one whos required to work in order to learn the matchup. Shiek can pretty much punish anything wario does. She combos him to high hell, can needle his airdodges, can up tilt his dairs, can bair his other aerials, and gets grab release up smash at 110 for a kill.

Its kind of like the wario ddd matchup, except getting grabbed isnt as devastating for the wario, and its easier to avoid. The only problem is that shiek air mobility is crap so if she gets put in the air or offstage, wario can go to town on her.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Im not claiming to be a top level shiek, but from what ive seen and done, its a very simple matchup for shiek and the wario is the one whos required to work in order to learn the matchup. Shiek can pretty much punish anything wario does. She combos him to high hell, can needle his airdodges, can up tilt his dairs, can bair his other aerials, and gets grab release up smash at 110 for a kill.

Its kind of like the wario ddd matchup, except getting grabbed isnt as devastating for the wario, and its easier to avoid. The only problem is that shiek air mobility is crap so if she gets put in the air or offstage, wario can go to town on her.

We're actually talking about it on the Wario subforum!

It's like Dedede in that Sheik has so many useful (but comparatively weak) options to stop a Wario approach, and she has a grab-release (which doesn't kill until about 135%, due to SDI into the second hit [but it does a LOT of damage, so, eh]), but, that's about as far as it goes. Sheik's moves aren't tailor-made to trade with Wario's, and once Wario gets in, he does massive damage via juggling, which are really big game changers. Wario can actually land a Waft (and it's relatively easy, and rising F-Air actually beats a lot of Sheik's walling (though it doesn't do much damage, it adds up and tends to make the opponent use different moves). Wario's damage output is crazy and simple in this matchup, but Sheik is quite good at walling him (slowly but surely). I think it evens out.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah pretty much that, though I've not really seen any Wario players consistently SDI first hit of usmash into second hit of usmash and then DI second hit upward instead of away (which is still a 30% damage value anyway).

 

[bubbaking]

if the ike gets you offstage and you are within the height of aether, ike can go offstage and hit you with the aether (which is very easy due to your terrible air speed and large frame, combined with aether staying out forever) which will drag you down offstage, at which point you are below the stage, typically without enough jumps to get to the ledge. Ike cancels the aether by grabbing the stage and then prepares to destroy your up b with his move of choice.

its one of those really subtle things where you dont realize that ike has so much control over the situation until youre staring at his up or f smash knowing that theres no way to avoid it.

I see... I figured as much, but no, I've never had to deal with aggressive, liberal use of this. Still, at most, I see it evening out our respective gimping potentials, 'cause as I said, DDD can DI high (like he should be) and then proceed to go higher to avoid Aether. I can definitely see what you're saying, though, and this does indeed make Ike a scarier character now. Still think the MU's a +2 though, just a harder one now.

Edit: Sorry guys, this post was supposed to be out a day ago. Don't know what happened...

 

[Mekos]

people overestimate how aggro nairo is imho, he definitely plays patient vs players of his level if he has to.

people also overestimate how much im willing to camp to attain victory. like the last 2 people 3 people I timed out, Mikekirby, Raptor and Lie (note 2 of those being sktar so it's really not as often as you think) all essentially let me do it LMAO. Like if I have a large *** lead and I KNOW you're dumb *** isn't gonna approach im gonna take the free win.

I don't think just camping will net you wins as easily as many people think at top level play, so when I play people that I don't feel I can win like that against, I change it up and try and zone more.

Nah...Nairo always goes hyper aggro. This is his greatest strength and greatest weakness. Kid has skills! Watch his SKTAR or Apex 2012 matches. Dude is always aggro.

He is confident in his mk aggro skills. Mk has the tools to win most clashes. Nairo knows this and has the skills to continuously attack. People who don't have mk's attack style fully mastered just try to play him defensively usually.

This is true for most characters. Many players haven't mastered "offense" for their character and have only mastered a "defense" or "wall" game. Defense is easier in smash. This is why characters that can beat mk's tornado wreck pocket mks. And once they lose the lead and are forced to go aggro, lose.

The best playstyle imo is a mix between offense and defense which is what I call a "bait & punish" playstyle. ADHD taught me this back in the day. Nairo could do this but doesn't. He just goes hyper aggro because he is Mk and has the skills to do so.

Understand the difference between Nairo and Anti when they play me for example.
Nairo = Hyper Aggro
Anti = Bait and punish

Anti - When I get knocked off the stage by Anti, he will just wait on the stage and pick the best punish while I recover. He does this everytime. He will be patient and give me % after % while I recover and may eventually kill me.

Nairo - When I get knocked off the stage by Nairo, he will always chase me and we have dragon ball Z fights in the air. Most of the times I will make it back and I now have stage control while he is safe. But some rare times he may gimp me. (Still salty about our last battle. I was ****** him on BF. Last stock I had a 85% lead. I come back with 0% and he GR's me to the edge and gets a clutch gimp. I pressed the jump button . The pros of his hyper aggro skills.)

There are pros and cons to the different playstyles. IMO Bait and punish is the best.
Connected to switching up like u said Orion. If they take the bait go aggro and punish!!

 

[MJG]

actually let me show you how to get a thread closed by trolling.

i summon m.j.g (averil) shadow1pj (thebest1pj) kingtoon (kt kasrani) near quest quivo chip santi hyro and the rest of the toonlinks.

the names have been spoken. it is only a matter of time

Top 5 thread forever gone

 

[Xubble]

"Find an opening, and rip it open. If there isn't an opening, wait and make."

 

[Espy Rose]

I could've sworn that I've definitely seen Nairo play safe and campy in certain match ups. Didn't he ever do that at the last APEX or something? I can't really recall where.

Maybe my memory is just on the fritz.

 

[bubbaking]

Nah, he always goes aggro, even when he's facing ICs.

I didn't say that he can't, I said that you would have to justify the claim "DDD has a good shot at gimping Luigi". Big difference.
idc about Luigisama's opinion, I don't even know who he is

>Doesn't care about a good Luigi mains opinion on Luigi
>Is from Canada
>Would probably lose to LuigiSama

See we can both say stupid ****

V115, that's not right. I tell you something about the MU from my side and also from the opinions of an established Luigi main and you just disregard it? Not cool, man! Not everyone can live in Canada just so you can know about them. You also said something similar when I cited my experience playing against Problem (not Trouble).

 

[DMG]

Nairo is generally very aggressive. I can't recall very campy matches from him. If you mean patient as in waiting for the airdodge, to then attempt to go into the 5 move string and chase you offstage really super duper far, then yes lol.

 

[infiniteV115]

Nah, he always goes aggro, even when he's facing ICs.




V115, that's not right. I tell you something about the MU from my side and also from the opinions of an established Luigi main and you just disregard it? Not cool, man! Not everyone can live in Canada just so you can know about them. You also said something similar when I cited my experience playing against Problem (not Trouble).

I pay attention to major tournaments, as well as tournaments in my region. I've never seen either of these players do anything notable at any tournaments I've paid attention to.
I think I saw 1 match of Problem at COT6 (lemme double check to make sure...yup, Inui vs Problem at COT6). He gets 2-0'd by Inui and fails to momentum cancel like 80% of the time.

Looking at the results he got 9th (which is actually really good, cause he tied with Atomsk, Nakat and Bloodcross) but looking at the bracket he didn't beat anyone notable.

If it isn't 'cool' to disregard Luigisama's opinion on Luigi vs DDD, show me why his opinion is worth taking into consideration. Point out some of his good results and whatnot, and show me that he has decent DDD experience against a notable DDD.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Luigisama is like, Top 5 Luigi for sure, hes ****ing amazing.

Hes also the hippest kid on the block.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

V115 would absolutely destroy Luigisama if they ever played.

 

[Xubble]

Hey, how about that Ally kid? I hear he's pretty good.

 

[bubbaking]

I pay attention to major tournaments, as well as tournaments in my region. I've never seen either of these players do anything notable at any tournaments I've paid attention to.
I think I saw 1 match of Problem at COT6 (lemme double check to make sure...yup, Inui vs Problem at COT6). He gets 2-0'd by Inui and fails to momentum cancel like 80% of the time.

Looking at the results he got 9th (which is actually really good, cause he tied with Atomsk, Nakat and Bloodcross) but looking at the bracket he didn't beat anyone notable.

If it isn't 'cool' to disregard Luigisama's opinion on Luigi vs DDD, show me why his opinion is worth taking into consideration. Point out some of his good results and whatnot, and show me that he has decent DDD experience against a notable DDD.

Alright, here you go:
At Impact!, Luigisama got 9th. He tied with me and outplaced Coontail, Dcold, and Pane. He beat Dcold in bracket.
At Impact II, he got 17th. He tied with John12346, Pane, Ghost (Snake), and Nuke and outplaced me and Coontail. I'd also like to note that my Ike friend, JamLosingTheGame, placed 13th at this tourney and outplaced all those guys while tying with MikeKirby and Dcold.
At Impact III, he got 17th. He tied with Dark.Pch, Nuke, Deven3000, and Problem and outplaced me, Will, Coontail, Raptor, Pane, and Ghost (Snake). These are the tourneys I've attended.

As for actual DDD experience, well I can't entirely speak for the man, but we faced off at Impact II, all DDD vs Luigi, and he won. However, I wasn't good at the infinite so I wouldn't say that I was too proficient at that MU. Every time I grabbed him, I just f/bthrew him or dthrow > ftilted him.

Still think he's a good Luigi main. What more do you want from a practically low tier character?

V115 would absolutely destroy Luigisama if they ever played.

Oh wow, big woop! V115, one of the best ZSS mains, beating a Luigi main. That's like saying in Melee, Cactuar or KK would destroy QERB, J00t, or Dualcats. Like, what do you want? They main bad characters!

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Oh so the Top 5 thread actually moved in here!

 

[infiniteV115]

No disrespect intended but...yeah these results are pretty bad. This guy is an 'established' Luigi main?
I mean seriously no disrespect at all dude, Luigi is low tier trash imo so I guess these results are expected.

I suppose since he plays a trash character it'd be better if I SAW him play rather than saw his results. At least that way I can compare him to Zhao_Guang (Luigi main in Canada, in my region for school atm) and see what's up

Edit: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Tech XD

 

[Delta-cod]

I think it can be difficult to judge low tier/lower mid tier mains' skill based on results because match ups and character issues.

 

[RaptorTEC]

V115 this region is stacked. You can't expect a luigi main to get top 8 consistently. Even Vinnie got 9th once unfortunately losing to NAKAT (although that doesn't make him inconsistent lol) You basically told bubba to back up his opinion and he gives you what he was told by probably the only true Luigi main that still exists who has been playing this game for quite some time now. Not having huge wins doesn't necessarily mean you don't know your character especially for a bad character in a region where round 2 usually consists of a national threat. Not trying to say LuigiSama is a god or anything but he's definitely knowledgable about his character.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Everyone knows top 12 in NY/NJ is equal to top 4 in Canada

 

[infiniteV115]

I know NJ/NY is stacked, it's the best region in NA XD. That's why I wasn't really looking at the placings. I looked at who he beat/lost to, and he lost to some...let's say, less-than-notable players, imo.
And basically what Delta said. Which is what I was saying.

And I'm not trying to discredit Luigisama anything, but when he says something about his character that doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense at first, and he's someone I've never heard of (ie never does well at any majors) outside of seeing him post on SWF, and then when I look at his results he's losing to other people I've never heard of that also don't do anything significant...like seriously wtf do you want me to do XD

Whenever I see Luigi recovering they start charging their sideB from almost off the screen (ie way off stage) release it so that when it's over they're close to (laterally) but below the edge, then recover to the edge by varying their timings and usage of their DJ, downB and upB.
This whole is-Luigisama's-opinion-worth-nothing thing started from bubba saying

The only chars DDD doesn't get a good shot at gimping are MK, Kirby, and Jiggs, G&W, and Samus.

I then asked him to explain how DDD has a good shot at gimping like 20 characters that I named, one of which was Luigi.

He basically responded with 'Luigisama thinks DDD has a lot of trouble getting the gimp when Luigi is close to the stage' (this is reasonable to me) 'so he has to go far offstage and from there it's easy to gimp Luigi'

Which you know it makes no sense to me cause DDD's a ****ing diabetic fat **** and he's gonna take years to get that far offstage ('that far offstage' referring to the distance I've seen Luigi's charging their sideBs from)

So I asked why I should listen to Luigisama and all I've really gotten so far is "well his results are far from notable but you know he plays a low tier". The only DDD I know he's played so far (I know because it was listed in the results bubba provided) was bubba. So outside of the fact that he has no results, I also have no reason to believe he's knowledgeable/experienced in the DDD MU

SERIOUSLY, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO LOL

 

[BSP]

Play Boss, YoshQ, or MrConCon

 

[Mekos]

"Find an opening, and rip it open. If there isn't an opening, wait and make."

lolololol dead*
Nice one

 

[infiniteV115]

Why should I play them? O.o
We're talking about Luigi:DDD here

And I actually played Mr.ConCon back in August 2011, but we were both terrible back then. XD

 

[BSP]

Oh right.

If you don't trust Sama, that's who I'd ask.

Biglou too.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Biglou is Diddy Kong now, but I guess that doesn't change the fact he knows matchups for Luigi vs X character.
Also, I played biglou at MLG dallas... damn Luigi is scary in the right hands.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, on the subject of Luigisama's experience against DDDs, I went searching and found these:
BMO vs Luigisama (notice the gimp from DDD at 2:40 and the very near gimp at 3:50; that last one could very well have been successful if not for the misfire)
Luigisama vs HelpR (notice the gimp from DDD at 8:13, the very near gimp at 10:10 [would have worked if not for that moving plat], the gimp at 11:00 [don't know if that counts], and the very possible gimp* at 11:40)

*I feel like this is an example of a time (11:40) where DDD could have secured a gimp or a very good situation offstage but the player did not capitalize. Sama jumped off the ledge and fireballed but on the DJ back up, HelpR dtilted him, thus sending him away without a jump. Right after that, Sama drifted back to under the ledge. If I had been in Help's position, I would have immediately ran offstage and baired towards the ledge, maybe even fastfalling to increase the range my bair covered. Luigi's only options were to tornado or upB and DDD's bair would have beaten out both of those options, bouncing him off the stage and very possibly gimping him. Instead, HelpR chose to dtilt again (I don't know what he was hoping to catch) and he let Sama upB cleanly to the ledge. I think this illustrates how D3's don't capitalize enough on their opportunities to gimp their opponents.

 

[| Big D |]

Poor Lugisama.

 

[Luigisama]

And I'm not trying to discredit Luigisama anything, but when he says something about his character that doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense at first

He basically responded with 'Luigisama thinks DDD has a lot of trouble getting the gimp when Luigi is close to the stage' (this is reasonable to me) 'so he has to go far offstage and from there it's easy to gimp Luigi'

Which you know it makes no sense to me cause DDD's a ****ing diabetic fat **** and he's gonna take years to get that far offstage ('that far offstage' referring to the distance I've seen Luigi's charging their sideBs from)

I told you this, too. In good edgeguarding situations, DDD has plenty of time to get into position. When Luigisama was giving me advice on the DDD:Luigi MU after our tourney set, he told me that DDD can just go out there and bair him 'cause his recovery's linear till he gets close enough to have options. Luigi becomes harder to gimp if you don't go far offstage after him. It's not like he can kill you if you miss either.

I haven't played any good d3 or at least the notable D3 players. The only D3(to some degree good) I've played and beat was Cheese's D3 several times as he performed the infinite grab on me, but not in sets because he switched to mk and I lost.

Allow me to explain as a luigi user

Luigi's side b has no priority so anything can beat it. D3 can just bair luigi out of side b. Also cyclone lol predictable, but it is hard to punish to timing hence cyclone gimps.

Regardless D3 can easily gimp luigi no problem since D3 has multiple jumps and can take his time to bair luigi.
I've been put in this situation multiply times to know

D3 may be slow, but luigi wouldn't be off stage for no reason. D3 has pressured luigi and has sent him offstage therefore D3 must be close to the ledge. Unless the D3 is stupid and runs away from luigi avoiding an easy gimp.

also Bubbaking relax. V115 like Nickriddle seems to be very strong about his opinions if you don't believe me check out the discussion between Excel and Nick about Zss v.s Luigi which is somewhere in this thread. Other than that don't even argue with him about character he doesn't even use. Just because he denies facts doesn't mean they aren't true.

edit
as for videos that demonstrate d3 gimping luigi would be a certain set between Boss and coney, but I found the video only to see that it got deleted.

 

[infiniteV115]

I didn't deny any facts. I asked him to support his argument and he didn't.
He actually more or less disagreed with you because you're basically saying that DDD gimps Luigi by bairing him out of his sideB, which would only really happen close to the stage (...right?)
Bubba told me that you said that DDD can't reliably gimp Luigi close to the edge and has to go far offstage.

My argument was basically 'given that the above is true, DDD can't easily gimp Luigi cause he can't get far offstage in time cause he's slow' except I call him diabetic and stuff

 

[da K.I.D.]

either way, you would still be better served by being less obnoxious.

you havent been good long enough to be pulling the 'but im/are you a top player' card as much as you do.

 

[Luigisama]

I didn't deny any facts. I asked him to support his argument and he didn't.
He actually more or less disagreed with you because you're basically saying that DDD gimps Luigi by bairing him out of his sideB, which would only really happen close to the stage (...right?)
Bubba told me that you said that DDD can't reliably gimp Luigi close to the edge and has to go far offstage.

My argument was basically 'given that the above is true, DDD can't easily gimp Luigi cause he can't get far offstage in time cause he's slow' except I call him diabetic and stuff

luigi isn't close to the stage when he is using side b. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of sweet spotting the ledge which is the main use for side b. If he was close to the stage he would get stuck in the stage.

 

[infiniteV115]

you havent been good long enough to be pulling the 'but im/are you a top player' card as much as you do.

I never even referred to my skill during this whole discussion, I don't know what you're talking about. Stop trying to put words in my mouth.

If somebody's going to attempt to support their argument by saying "Well that's the opinion of <insert player here>" and you've never heard of this player before and the argument is counterintuitive, is it suddenly unreasonable to ask that said player has some credibility?
I wasn't even asking that he be a top player, I just wanted to know he wasn't LuigiMaster1993 and had at least frequent DDD experience against someone that wasn't ChainGrabber1989.

I mean if it was someone like Boss (he's from MD/VA right? So I've heard of him and he probably has Coney experience) qnd he said something like 'I have experience against Coney and I get gimped pretty often' and he gave a sensible explanation of how the gimping worked, I would have accepted it.

luigi isn't close to the stage when he is using side b. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of sweet spotting the ledge which is the main use for side b. If he was close to the stage he would get stuck in the stage.

Yeah I know, I meant that DDD would stay close to the stage and bair Luigi's sideB as it approaches the stage.

 

[bubbaking]

Woah, all these posts! Uh, I didn't read any of that before writing this, so sorry if anything is redundant or anything. I'll go back up and read after this.

Ah, what the heck! I guess I'll flame myself as well. Here are my matches against Luigisama, though they're kinda old...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPVvpcl5r6I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P5sU5pBeLA (Notice how I went deep for the bair gimp at 1:43 and it paid off with a bad situation for Luigi where I got the KO. Again at at 2:55 i go deep[er] for the bair gimp, he tornados, and then I bair him again; however at this point, I get scared and I cut off the pursuit. If I had stayed on him, I'm sure I could have taken a stock. All I had to do was drop down and bair him out of his sideB or bair his DJ/upB.)

Edit: Reading all those posts now...

 

[Luigisama]

Yeah I know, I meant that DDD would stay close to the stage and bair Luigi's sideB as it approaches the stage.

okay fair enough.