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Official BBR Tier List v7

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bubbaking

bubbaking

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Ok, getting thru them...

RaptorTEC said:
V115 this region is stacked. You can't expect a luigi main to get top 8 consistently. Even Vinnie got 9th once unfortunately losing to NAKAT (although that doesn't make him inconsistent lol) You basically told bubba to back up his opinion and he gives you what he was told by probably the only true Luigi main that still exists who has been playing this game for quite some time now. Not having huge wins doesn't necessarily mean you don't know your character especially for a bad character in a region where round 2 usually consists of a national threat. Not trying to say LuigiSama is a god or anything but he's definitely knowledgable about his character.
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Lolz, even Nairo got 3rd at some tournament recently, losing to Dill and NAKAT, and apparently Dill was kind of a 'nobody' before that tournament. Ummm, I think it was some tourney at Deven3000's place or something...

infiniteV115 said:
And I'm not trying to discredit Luigisama anything, but when he says something about his character that doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense at first, and he's someone I've never heard of (ie never does well at any majors) outside of seeing him post on SWF, and then when I look at his results he's losing to other people I've never heard of that also don't do anything significant...like seriously wtf do you want me to do XD
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First off, I want to say that you shouldn't discredit Luigisama over anything I'm telling you. I'm telling you something that he told me in good faith when our set was over. It's word-of-mouth and all that, but I am telling what he told me as best as I remember it.

Whenever I see Luigi recovering they start charging their sideB from almost off the screen (ie way off stage) release it so that when it's over they're close to (laterally) but below the edge, then recover to the edge by varying their timings and usage of their DJ, downB and upB.
This whole is-Luigisama's-opinion-worth-nothing thing started from bubba saying
The only chars DDD doesn't get a good shot at gimping are MK, Kirby, and Jiggs, G&W, and Samus.
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I then asked him to explain how DDD has a good shot at gimping like 20 characters that I named, one of which was Luigi.

He basically responded with 'Luigisama thinks DDD has a lot of trouble getting the gimp when Luigi is close to the stage' (this is reasonable to me) 'so he has to go far offstage and from there it's easy to gimp Luigi'
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Alright V115, I'm going to have to ask that you quote me accurately. :glare: I did NOT say "Luigisama thinks DDD has a lot of trouble getting the gimp when Luigi is close to the stage," although that certainly sounds logical when given Luigi's tools. My EXACT quote was:
bubbaking said:
When Luigisama was giving me advice on the DDD:Luigi MU after our tourney set, he told me that DDD can just go out there and bair him 'cause his recovery's linear till he gets close enough to have options.
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I then proceeded to add my own thoughts to supplement this statement:
Luigi becomes harder to gimp if you don't go far offstage after him. It's not like he can kill you if you miss either. You can probably use all your jumps offstage and then Super DDD Jump and still grab the ledge before Weegee. No need to go that extreme, though.
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I never said that Luigisama thinks that it becomes harder for DDD to gimp closer to the stage. He just told me that DDD is very capable of going out there and bairing Luigi whenever. I added my own input that it's probably harder to gimp him once he gets close to the ledge.

Which you know it makes no sense to me cause DDD's a ****ing diabetic fat **** and he's gonna take years to get that far offstage ('that far offstage' referring to the distance I've seen Luigi's charging their sideBs from)
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I also never said that DDD has to go all the way to the blastzone just to gimp Luigi. Why the heck would I do that? That would expend nearly all my jumps and might not give me enough leeway to come back, just for a gimp attempt. All I was saying is, "Hey, DDD can take a pretty large leap offstage to go for that gimp/offstage harrassment. He can even use a couple jumps to maintain a 'walling presence' at a certain point offstage." I never said DDD's gonna be going that far offstage. I'm very well aware that my character is slow as heck. :c

So I asked why I should listen to Luigisama and all I've really gotten so far is "well his results are far from notable but you know he plays a low tier". The only DDD I know he's played so far (I know because it was listed in the results bubba provided) was bubba. So outside of the fact that he has no results, I also have no reason to believe he's knowledgeable/experienced in the DDD MU :glare:

SERIOUSLY, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO DO LOL
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Well, I supplied you with more vids. He's gone against more DDDs than just me. Also, it doesn't help that you don't know a lot of good/decent players in our region. I kinda feel like you're making assumptions because you've never heard of someone. :ohwell:
 
Xubble

Xubble

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Delta-cod said:
Since DDD is so slow through the air, why can't Weegee just Cyclone from far away for extra height, Missile over, and then use his DJ to recover high?
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DJ is necessary for cyclone to get its momentum. So it has to be paired with cyclone.

DJ/cyclone, missile, shoryuken

OR

Missile, DJ/cyclone, shoryuken
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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The man speaks.

Luigisama said:
I haven't played any good d3 or at least the notable D3 players. The only D3(to some degree good) I've played and beat was Cheese's D3 several times as he performed the infinite grab on me, but not in sets because he switched to mk and I lost.

Allow me to explain as a luigi user

Luigi's side b has no priority so anything can beat it. D3 can just bair luigi out of side b. Also cyclone lol predictable, but it is hard to punish to timing hence cyclone gimps.

Regardless D3 can easily gimp luigi no problem since D3 has multiple jumps and can take his time to bair luigi.
I've been put in this situation multiply times to know

D3 may be slow, but luigi wouldn't be off stage for no reason. D3 has pressured luigi and has sent him offstage therefore D3 must be close to the ledge. Unless the D3 is stupid and runs away from luigi avoiding an easy gimp.
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Exactly! DDD can go deep (FH off the stage) and just hang there waiting to intercept Luigi. He doesn't have to worry about the char stalling to wait him out (maybe something Kirby or Jiggs or Fox could do) because Luigi does not have that kind of time. He's going to sideB back. DDD can just kick him out of that. The only thing I'm scared of then (and it happened to me twice while fighting Sama) is the misfire, but I'm not gonna let that scare me out of going for the gimp unless I'm on my last stock. Just jump as far as you can offstage and use a couple jumps to bair at him. It's effective.

also Bubbaking relax. V115 like Nickriddle seems to be very strong about his opinions if you don't believe me check out the discussion between Excel and Nick about Zss v.s Luigi which is somewhere in this thread. Other than that don't even argue with him about character he doesn't even use. Just because he denies facts doesn't mean they aren't true.

edit
as for videos that demonstrate d3 gimping luigi would be a certain set between Boss and coney, but I found the video only to see that it got deleted.
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Ah, gotcha! Sorry to bring you into this. :urg: Dang, if I had read this earlier, I probably wouldn't have posted a lot of the other things I just did. :facepalm: Ohhh, I actually remember watching a certain YT vid where Boss 0-to-death'd Coney's first stock. I think Coney still won the set (and maybe even that game). Let me go see if I can find that. Might be some good material in it...
 
Delta-cod

Delta-cod

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If you mash fast enough you don't need to DJ to get the Cyclone momentum. I've done it plenty of times while preserving my DJ.

Even assuming you don't get the maximum height possible without the DJ, assuming Luigi has DI'd correctly, he doesn't need all the height possible as he'll already be near the top corner.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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Delta-cod said:
Since DDD is so slow through the air, why can't Weegee just Cyclone from far away for extra height, Missile over, and then use his DJ to recover high?
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Yeah, Luigi can do that but if he somehow gets swatted out again, he now no longer has a tornado or maybe even a DJ (if you got that far before you got sent off again). I don't play the char, so I can't speak authoritatively, but if I were Luigi, I'd rather take the chance that I might get a lucky misfire and save my tornado for the crazy recovery mix-ups Luigi has closer to the stage. Also, if Luigi connects a tornado offstage, it could actually turn into a lost stock.

Actually, here's an interesting Melee comparison. When recovering, Mario can use his tornado to gain extra height. Indeed, sometimes, Mario will tornado from far away for height and then proceed to recover. However, most of the time, he will just come back normally, using his capes to boost his distance. He'll save his tornado for that recovery mix-up closer to the stage when he might need to stall out someone's invincibility on the ledge. The same thing applied to Doc, albeit not as much since his tornado was worse and was mostly just good for stalling (and he only gets one good cape). Come to think of it, the same thing applied to Luigi as well. :p
 
Xubble

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Unless you get hit as far into the corner as possible and live, I think missile ending lag will put Luigi too close above the stage and allow any character to jump up and punish before he can double jump.

Edit: Nevermind, he's a bit higher than I thought he'd end up being.
 
Xubble

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Oh yeah, we're talking about Dedede. Rofl, then my point stands. Luigi would get trashed by a fair from Dedede after his missile.
 
bubbaking

bubbaking

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DDD for Top Tier. :p

Xubble, your avatar please? :troll:

infiniteV115 said:
I didn't deny any facts. I asked him to support his argument and he didn't.
He actually more or less disagreed with you because you're basically saying that DDD gimps Luigi by bairing him out of his sideB, which would only really happen close to the stage (...right?)
Bubba told me that you said that DDD can't reliably gimp Luigi close to the edge and has to go far offstage.
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Well, I already went over this. I didn't say that. Also, DDD can be reasonably far and intercept Luigi. It just doesn't have to be in the blastzone and DDD doesn't have to exhaust all his jumps to do it, and all I meant about Luigi close to the stage was that, if he's below the ledge and he has a tornado and DJ left, it becomes very troublesome to deal with him. If I can cut him off before he gets there, I will.

My argument was basically 'given that the above is true, DDD can't easily gimp Luigi cause he can't get far offstage in time cause he's slow' except I call him diabetic and stuff
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There's plenty of time. Luigi's recovery is slow. :p

Luigisama said:
luigi isn't close to the stage when he is using side b. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of sweet spotting the ledge which is the main use for side b. If he was close to the stage he would get stuck in the stage.
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infiniteV115 said:
Yeah I know, I meant that DDD would stay close to the stage and bair Luigi's sideB as it approaches the stage.
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Well, DDD doesn't have to be that close to the stage to bair/fair Luigi's sideB as it approaches the stage, but I'm repeating myself. Anyway, I'm kinda done with this. Was just responding to posts as I saw 'em... :oneeye:
 
Delta-cod

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I don't think we're imagining the recovery situation the same way, though.

The way I see it, Luigi momentum cancels, then Cyclones to gain height. From here, I personally would either just drift towards the stage (from this height he should be able to make it just from this), allowing for DJ mixups to avoid getting edge guarded.

Depending on how high Luigi is, he can missile to get closer, and then drift, still retaining his DJ for mixups but being much closer to the stage in the mean time.
 
infiniteV115

infiniteV115

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bubbaking said:
Alright V115, I'm going to have to ask that you quote me accurately. :glare: I did NOT say "Luigisama thinks DDD has a lot of trouble getting the gimp when Luigi is close to the stage," although that certainly sounds logical when given Luigi's tools. My EXACT quote was:

When Luigisama was giving me advice on the DDD:Luigi MU after our tourney set, he told me that DDD can just go out there and bair him 'cause his recovery's linear till he gets close enough to have options.
Click to expand...
I then proceeded to add my own thoughts to supplement this statement:
Luigi becomes harder to gimp if you don't go far offstage after him. It's not like he can kill you if you miss either. You can probably use all your jumps offstage and then Super DDD Jump and still grab the ledge before Weegee. No need to go that extreme, though.
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You have to realize that the way that it was worded, there was no real way for me to tell which parts Luigisama said and which parts were just your opinion. They were right next to each other. There was nothing saying 'Luigisama said this, and I think this'. I didn't even know any of it was your opinion; I thought it was all Luigisama's XD

That said, I looked at the clips and although some of them were stupid (eg backwards fair gimp on bad DI, another one where Luigi just gets hit out of his jump for no reason) it does look like DDD can just sit from close-midrange offstage and bair Luigi when he comes by with sideB.
I guess I was just forgetting that Luigi's airspeed is also trash, alongside forgetting that his sideB speed isn't really fast enough for DDD to have no response to it. And the way I was picturing it in my head was with Luigi charging sideB from afar, releasing it so he ends up close (laterally) to but below the edge, then he gets the edge with his DJ/downB/upB. I forgot that offstage pressure can be started from onstage XD (eg DDD throws him off and then strings with bairs and whatnot)

It still kinda seems like Luigi can just (from mid-far range offstage) use his DJ cyclone to go super high (like...if they were on BF, use it to go to the top platform's height or maybe even a little higher, while offstage) and then fall back to the stage/edge and mixup landings somehow.

But w/e. I'll concede that DDD has a 'good shot' at gimping Luigi for now.
This statement
The only chars DDD doesn't get a good shot at gimping are MK, Kirby, and Jiggs, G&W, and Samus.
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Is still very bold and vastly unsupported. I don't see how DDD has a 'good shot' at gimping characters like Pikachu, Wario, ZSS, Pit and ROB, among many others.
 
da K.I.D.

da K.I.D.

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Infinites base statement is correct. Ddd isnt gimping many characters, especially the ones with average to above average recoveries. Sonic and fox for example.

Like i said, he may be able to get a couple bairs in there and rack damage but hes not killing them offstage nearly as much as he is just getting them to the point where theu can try to up tilt them later on once they have inevitably recovered

:phone:
 
Luigisama

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Delta-cod said:
Since DDD is so slow through the air, why can't Weegee just Cyclone from far away for extra height, Missile over, and then use his DJ to recover high?
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of course. That's what luigi should be doing, but luigi can still missle to the ledge if the opportunity is given
Xubble said:
DJ is necessary for cyclone to get its momentum. So it has to be paired with cyclone.

DJ/cyclone, missile, shoryuken

OR

Missile, DJ/cyclone, shoryuken
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Actually Delta is right. Cyclone can rise without the double jump the problem is that some luigis or perhaps most of them(I'm not sure) lack the ability to rise with cyclone without double jump. Luigi should be saving that last jump just in case.

Double jump cyclone should only be used to get back on the stage quickly to avoid edge guarding since luigi gains a lot of speeding doing it. Also it can be used against metaknight or other characters that can gimp luigi easily, but in this case luigi will be using to rise up all the way to the top blast zone.

Other than that it's used by the luigis who can't rise with cyclone without using the double jump.

Edit
nvm delta just mentioned it. But as for cyclone apparently even if luigi gets hit out of it he can still rise with cyclone, but it depends on when he gets hit out of cyclone. @bubba since you weren't sure if luigi could still cyclone after he got hit out of it.

ShadowLink84 said:
That is because Luigi sucks.
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Now if only people would not get hit by up b.
 
Xubble

Xubble

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Dat jab > shoryuken is so tasty when you land it.

Even if you get over the stage and save your double jump, Luigi has a bad air speed like Dedede too. It's possible to bait the double jump and leave Luigi defenseless against uairs and the works (bair if he dodges through uair).
 
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