Yoshi is a pain for Dedede and this MU requires a lot of patience on both ends.
Played this MU tons yesterday with Firefly and here's my input.
[COLLAPSE="DDD:Yoshi MU analysis"]How this MU usually goes down is Yoshi will be sitting near the ledge throwing eggs.
Dedede wants to approach by walking and PSing everything. Where things get interesting is when Dedede gets within a dash length of Yoshi. There are so many RPS options and mixups involved it's nuts. Mainly what Yoshi is going to mix up is egg toss, dash grabs, shorthhop bairs and egg lays. In this distance, we almost want to react to what they do keeping their options in mind. A short hop approach from Yoshi can be beaten out by a bair, but keep in mind if they see that bair out they might just not approach and retreat to the ledge. However on the ledge we can beat out their eggs with ftilts, meaning we can stay close to the ledge and apply pressure without having to wear down our shield or retreat. But back to the shorthop, if we throw out a bair and they just keep throwing eggs out on the ground, we just ate damage and are in the air where Yoshi can cover many landing options with his mobility, however we also have a lot of mix ups with out landing options, an entire other RPS game. Any grounded approach gets beaten by ftilt, but if we ftilt and they shorthop before that happens, then we get egg layed or bair'd. Egg tosses at a dash lengths distance are hard to punish but we can run and shield grab, although it can be tough given the height of egg toss. We can also roll into them as a mix up but that isn't reliable, but the threat is there for Yoshi to consider.
Dedede can chose when he goes in and by rolling backwards as a means of applying pressure and baiting a dash grab or egg lay, but for the most part Yoshi is just going to keep throwing out eggs until you get in range. You can try and throw waddles to combat this but a smart Yoshi will know he out camps you.
Yoshi is a mobile character and that is why we have to react to them. We have the means keep them out and avoid eggs. The MU becomes easier if you keep these options in mind, instead of trying to read what option the Yoshi is going to select. We can react because we do out range Yoshi on our aerials/grounded moves. However we can't pivot grab egg lay/dash grab so it will either take a read to land it but in most case our punishes will not be that large in percent. If either side loses patience they are going to eat a lot of damage. Yoshi can style on Dedede if you aren't patient with egg lays, bairs, egg toss, upsmash, while obvious approaches from Yoshi can be spotdodged/pivot grabbed. It may not look as nice as Yoshi but our chaingrab does exist and can be combo'd into dtilt at high percent.
As far as killing goes, they both have to get each other off stage or cover the other's landing. Yoshi's quick moves like jab/dtilt/nair will put Dedede in a bad position off stage in a position to get killed by fsmash or upair if they read how we will recover. Dedede has his chain grab and and moves like bair/dtilt to get them to the ledge. In some cases if the spacing happens to be right you can combo into dtilt. Also dthrowing Yoshi off stage opens them up to a ledge drop fair, however assuming both players know the MU Yoshi won't get hit by this but it will force him to use his double jump, giving the Dedede player a similar read and react game to Yoshi in terms how he punishes his recovery.
I'd say if both players know the MU it's even or +1 Dedede, only due to the fact that Dedede will live longer and he has the tools to deal with approaches, but Yoshi will control the pace of the match in this regard. The MU requires a lot of focus on both ends and if played right it will be mentally exhausting if both players know the MU. Both players can use their projectiles as a means to force the other to lose patience but where most interactions will happen will be near the ledge within a dash length.
However if the Dedede does not know the MU, it's +3 Yoshi.
[/COLLAPSE]
Edit: So many grammar mistakes : (
The way you say that DDD only has to 'react' to what Yoshi does at mid/close range, I feel like this MU would definitely be +1 in DDD's advantage then, and not just even. If the Yoshi doesn't know the MU, then definitely +2 or +3, 'cause, lolz, CGs (and ftilt). Really nice analysis, btw.
Dont judge off of friendlies Bubba I dont care for them at all. :0 Heck ill go really low for fair spikes when people are at like 200% just for fun. Also sorry, I didnt even remember we played. xD
No johns, scrub!
At the free fest (before Impact IV), we even teamed against Kain and his MK friend. During the beginning of one of the matches (I think it was on BF), you pulled off a 'combo' on Kain that involved at least 3 fairs, and you persuaded me to just suicide and end the match (pause was off) so that you could save that replay before the two minute mark.
You'd better have top level experience against every character that isn't one of the 5 mentioned here, cause idk how DDD is supposed to have a 'good shot' at gimping
Snake, Falco, Pikachu, Wario, ZSS, Peach, Pit, ROB, Sonic, DK, Ike, Yoshi, Luigi
Well, for Snake, I already told you that I played against Fatal during the quarterfinals of a tourney in Boston. We also did quite a few friendlies. I also played against Problem in bracket at one of the Impacts. For Peach, I played friendlies against Dark.Pch at Impact III. For DK, I've played friendlies against Will. For Luigi, I've played against Luigisama and Thunderst0rm, both in bracket. That's my "Top/High" experience, although I'm not exactly sure if Problem, Dark.Pch, and Thunderst0rm can be considered top/high. For the others, the people I've played might not be considered that high, but they're quite decent with their chars. I've played Nipps' Wario and Falco. Dabuz and John12346 for Pit. Raptor and John12346 for Yoshi. My Ike main friend who's also John's and my training partner for Ike. Nothing notable for Pika, ZSS, ROB, or Sonic, though.
And if you really think he has a 'good shot' at gimping these guys you're either hardcore theorycrafting alongside a terrible understanding of how these characters work, or you're just really scraping the bottom of the barrel and labelling it a 'good shot'
Well, Luigisama actually told me
in person that DDD should have a fairly easy time gimping Luigi when he was giving me advice on the MU. His recovery is linear until he gets close to the stage, so DDD can go deep for the harrassment. I've personally observed that Snake is stupidly easy to harrass offstage. Fatal's a top Snake, and even I GR'd him out of his recovery and faired him out of another one. Of course, DDD also has that Inhale shenanigan on his recovery. Like, out of all the recoveries available, I don't see why you chose Snake as a contender against DDD...
Ike is pretty easy too. Uh, I've already explained this one on another thread. I'll just quote it:
Lies!
I play that MU all the time. It's my most played MU after DDD:Lucario. Ike is so easy to gimp, it's ridiculous. You just jump out, bait the AD, and then bair him. If you somehow screw up the bair edgeguard, you fair him out of Aether. He's
going to end up offstage too. It's not too hard to grab him.
It only takes one bair or fair to kill Ike, too. It's obviously way worse if he has to QD 'cause you can just put yourself in the way of it. Ike only gimps DDD if he puts himself within walk-off/ledgedrop range and DDD gets more than one chance due to weight and multiple jumps. DDD also beats all of Ike's options off the ledge. Between grabbing, SH bair, and FH dair, DDD covers all of Ike's options at the ledge. If DDD's on the ledge, Ike's options at covering getups are significantly worse. DDD can ledgehop > AD back onto the stage and if Ike is standing in the wrong spot, he'll get grabbed and the tables will be turned. If Ike is standing right on top of the ledge to prevent that, DDD can ledgejump (different from ledgehop) > dair completely safely to, once again, turn the tables and punish Ike.
Falco, well, if DDD is preemptive and gets the right read, Falco is very gimpable as well. With a correct guess, he can bair him if he throws it out preemptively. He can also ftilt him. He can also dtilt him. He can also utilt him. Utilt, in particular, is very useful against Falco's Phantasm. It stands to reason that, if Falco ever has to upB, he's dead. I've knocked Foxes and Falcos out of that several times on reaction. Just run off and bair stage spike them.
I'll admit that I may have overexaggerated a bit when I made the original statement that you referred to, but I actually believe that DDD has a shot at gimping the other guys if he edgeguards a bit more aggressively.
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